Need help with a disking bid please, long post

Gents,

We are bidding on a County project that requires disking 10" deep prior to spraying. This project is to control Cogon grass, considered one of the worst weeds in the world. If you live in the coastal Southeast, pray you dont get it on your property. Anyway, any assistance you can give me will be great appreciated. Here's the scope of work: 400 acres of flat, dry, old tomato fields(soil is fairly sandy, no clay, will be burnt prior to disking. To be disked north and south, then east and west. Tractors we have available are an 85 h.p JD mfwd and a 110 hp JD mfwd. Sorry, I dont recall the exact models, both with aux. hydrualics and good tires. We will need to buy / rent some offset disks, being that these tractors are usually used for spraying. No doubt this grass builds an dense mass of rhizomes below the surface. Considerations are these:

1. How big of an offset disk can each tractor reasonable pull? Maybe I dont need a true offset, but something that will be able to aggresively cut through a pretty tough root mass, in sandy soil, but at least the tops will be burned.

2. How many acres a day, in flat old farm field thats been burned could I expect in a day, average? I know there's the incedentals: 350 chevy block left in a field, flat tires, refueling, etc. Fields are square for the most part. I'm thinking it might be slow going due to the drag on the disk.

3. Anyone within a 6 hour drive interested in renting the appropriate disk? Located in N. Florida, Where I-10 and I-75 cross.

4. What would be the going rate for this type of work in the Southeast (Since I have to go both directions, does $70 an acre sound crazy?. This is a special project, not disking for a farmer / neighbor.

You guys have never let me down, let me know what you think. As always, much obliged.

John

Going 10" deep you are going to be limited by horsepower and traction. You will need a heavy offset plowing disc,with at least 28-30+"diameter blades to get in 10" in the soil mixture/root mat you have to cut. The biggest you will be able to pull sucessfully at 4-5mph is about a 10 ft on the 110 HP tractor, and maybe a 8 footer on the smaller tractor.I can spin out a dualled up/heavily weighted 4960JD with an 18 foot Tatu with 36 in blades in similar soil.
Here's a horsepower chart for the heavy off set Tatu discs

Number of Disk Blades Working Width
ft. in. (mm) Disk Blade Dimensions Disk Blade Spacing Weigth per Disk
lbs (kg) Approx Net Weight*
lbs (kg) Tractor Drawbar Horsepower**
10 5' 10"
(1,800) 36" x 12mm 673 (305) 6,733 (3,054) 130 - 140
12 7' 3"
(2,200) 38" x 12mm 17 5/16" 625 (283) 7,500 (3,402) 145 - 155
16 10' 2"
(3,100) and (440mm) 660 (299) 10,553 (4,787) 205 - 220
20 13' 1"
(4,000) 40" x 12mm 660 (299) 13,198 (5,986) 260 - 280
*Approximate Net Weight with 36" x 12mm disk blades

Taking all this into account, with both tractors,you might get over 40-50 acres in a 10 hr day,and $70/hr is not out of the question. Figure $12+hr for operator,$30/hr for fuel and maintenance, another $10/hr to cover breakdowns,wear and tear, then add in something for equipment depreciation, and add some some margin of profit ($7-$10/hr),if you don't tear a $900 tire

The way you frame this... the first thing that comes to my mind is liability. What is the reason for this job and who's responsible if the results are not up to their specifications?
Some big liability insurance would be in order I think... Be worth a call to your agent and probably a lawyer as to what coverage they'd recomend for you.

As far as discs go... I'd agree that 26" blades are going to be a bare minimum here. With the gear you have you might drag a 9' on the 6400 and mabey a 10' on the bigger tractor... though 8' would certainly be easier for the smaller tractor.
I handle a TaylorWay 670 which is 9' behind a Ford 7710... but that's also wound up to over 100 horse... with a lot of ballast on all 4 wheels.
Workrate with that setup is 2-4 acres per hour but in this case I'd lean towards the 2 acres per hour figure. I also wouldn't consider it at less than 70/hour... and I'm using farm fuel, I own the disc (which should be more economical than you renting it) and I don't have liability insurance...
I'd say you're going to be closer to 100/hour.
I'd also probably not want to bother with it unless there was the potential there for some good profit. Too many potential headaches there to work for nothing...

Rod

Insurance / liability is no concern. We carry 3 million as a course of business and we are pre-qualified and actually a favored contractor, having completed several spray jobs for this county.

Also, we were thinking about $70 per acre, not hour, disking it both ways (essentially $35 per acre, each direction.

Your state university should have a list of custom farming rates by operation, i.e. planting, discing, harvesting, etc. I have no idea of the equipment you are planning to use, but I would take ALL of the discing I could at $70.00 per acre.

Soory, my previous reply was made before I read the full post. $70.00 might be right!

I looked up the Iowa State custom rates and they don't list heavy disking anymore. They do list the average rate per hour for a 21 foot disk at $100.45 at 12.22 acres/hour. You will be pulling a more expensive disk than a light 21 footer and you will be working the tractors pretty hard. I get the idea fuel is more expensive in Florida so it looks to me like you can't go much below $100 if you don't want to loose money on the job. Jim

I've got a real heavy 6ft offset disc i'd sell.I'm in ohio .

Long as you know what you're getting into...

Personally I think 70 bucks per acre is cheap, especially if you have to cut it in 2 directions. That's going to take a lot of time; considerably more than two cuts in one direction. Just think about all of those 6" ridges you're going to be crossing... every 10 feet. That sends a shiver down my spine...

Custom government contracts, at least around here bear a lot more misery than private work. Just make sure you start high enough. I really don't see a point in trying to do them any favors as it's almost guaranteed to come back to bite you. If someone else wants to do it cheap, let them and let them learn the lesson.

Rod

If you have to ask what to charge then apparently you have no idea what it costs you to operate... If you don't clearly understand your costs you are setting yourself up for failure.

Not to rain on your parade,but 10"deep and two passes,you don't have enough tractor for even a 4 ft.disc.I can't say on sand,but it isn't going to be that easy.A 8-10ft.Miller offset is at times more then a 250HP 4 wheel drive wants and run 3-4MPH.My custom rate chart only shows $13-15 per acre.Good luck.

I am in the herbicide application business, and have been for 10 years. We rarely perform mechanical work, unfortunately, this is required on this bid. The spraying portion I can nail down to the penny, and that part will be very lucrative for us. I know what it costs to run my tractors and pay my people. I was just curious what some of the "going rates" were, and in general what I could expect production-wise. But,thank you for your input.

Biggest issues are finding a disc that cuts 10 inches deep on the first pass, and finding a tractor to pull it- neither one of yours will. My offset with 26 inch blades is maxed at eight inches, spring discing after fall tillage, with a 4450 MFWD running at 190 hp. You"ll need to get into heavier equipment, like used on road construction. If you have to rent everything, is it worth it?

I really appreciate all the replies. They have been a big help. We have completed hundreds of State and County contracts, and we know to read the fine print. The spraying potion of the job is really what we want and have lots of experience with, this disking (except on my farm) is what I wasn't too sure of. I talked with a buddy this morning with a JD similar size to mine, and said that he would do it with an 8' Alamo offset for $80 an acre (both directions). He's always done some mechanical work for me when required (we just want to spray), might just let him do it as a subcontractor if we win the bid, and save me the headache. Thanks again. If we win the bid, I'll post a follow-up on how it goes.

That is good advice. We have been losing alot of State bids, unqualified people are hungry, bidding work cheap, I let them have it to go starve on. I usually don't see them again at bid meetings. I had one guy who recently won a bid for 3/4 of my bid. He can't identify the specific invasive plants he needs to spray and called me to ask what I would charge him to do the work! I said "I'll do it for what I bid" Considering what he will have to forfeit in his performance bond, he may be better off hiring me, getting the job done right, and licking his wounds.

You need a sub-contractor. Disking 10" deep on the first pass will require huge equipment- 26" disk blades, at a minimum, probably pulled with a big crawler. Nothing you have would pull anything with 24" blades.

Look at custom operators with lots of tillage experience, and also road construction outfits. They pull those huge Rome offset discs with D8 Cats. I have a feeling that all the profit you'd be earning on the spraying portion is going to get eaten up by the tillage.

Guess I'm curious as to why they want to disk it anyhow? Wouldn't they want the root mass intact, so they can get a complete kill? If they cut it all up, are they going to let it re-sprout so the herbicide has a pathway to the roots? So many questions. . .

This is one of those times where I really wonder about the claims of some people on here...
Around here either of thsoe tractors, provided they're MFWD and adequately ballasted will handle a 9', 26" blade offset. Another guy dragged a 10' Rome with a Deere 3140 years ago, albeit very slowly.
I'd have some reservation as to wether on not the 26" blade could make 10" of depth easily in 2 passes but I have no doubt about the tractor pulling it provided it has the ballast.

Rod