I have always been curious as to why diesel is most definitely the fuel and engine of choice in tractors. I know diesel in many locations is slightly cheaper then gasoline. I know diesel is less combustable then gasoline, which would make sense in a the rough environments tractors are used in. Any other reasons guys?
- Thread starter LJS30
- Start date
My experience with gas tractors is poor at best. Vapor locks, high fuel consumption, always tinkering with ignition systems (seems they get damp even in dry weather), and volatile fuels. I dislike them with a passion. One of my first tractors was a 4030 JD gas, and Im pretty sure there is no limit to what it could do or the amount of gas it could burn.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Horsepower and torque
Michael Soldan
Well-known Member
I am going to suggest electronics as a factor..no spark plugs, points, condenser, coil,cap, rotor or wires, damp weather doesn't affect starting. Time between oil changes is longer with diesel. The longer maintenance schedule is a factor with me. Certainly efficiency of fuel in a good working diesel.
Mathias NY
Well-known Member
Fewer wear components and far better efficiency. Even if the diesel fuel costs more per gallon, you will use significantly less fuel per hour (for the same horsepower).
Steve in IN
Member
Diesel produces approximately 130,500 btu per US gallon.
Gasoline produces approximately 115,000 btu per US gallon.
Diesels turn at lower speeds to produce max power vs the speed of a gasoline engine, thus less wear on parts.
Gasoline produces approximately 115,000 btu per US gallon.
Diesels turn at lower speeds to produce max power vs the speed of a gasoline engine, thus less wear on parts.
Curt Cooke
Member
I'm just principally a collector/fixer guy so I don't mean that this applies to real users but - carburetors become a real problem for any equipment that remains idle for any length of time, leaky needle/seat, plugged small passages, etc. Again for idle equipment, fuel goes "bad" quickly. Yes, electrical problems are more common but fuel problems are messy and unpleasant. Thus, if it's spark ignition, I prefer LP gas, that usually takes carburetor trouble off the list. Diesel is the way to go!
The diesel cycle (compression ignition), with it"s high compression ratios(16 to 17) is more thermally efficient than the relatively low compression ratios( 6-7 in tractors and 8 to 9-10 in modern automobiles) of gasoline (spark ignition) engines. The limitation to low compression ratios for gas engines is due to the low auto ignition temperature of gasoline.
Diesel are just more fuel efficient especially in tractors.
Diesel are just more fuel efficient especially in tractors.
Gas is sometimes a better choice now adays for some part-time users. But for a tractor that gets used a lot, a diesel in most cases is a lot cheaper to run. There are a few exceptions, especially if you put a big diesel tractor on a very small load. Some big diesels doing very light work are worse fuel hogs than a correct-sized gas tractor doing the same job.
I got raking hay a few weeks ago with my 300 Deere. Mine is a diesel and the other tractor there was a Deere 300 with the gas engine. My diesel used approx. 1 1/2 gallons of diesel per hour and the gas tractor used 2 1/2 gallons per hour. Right now - here in central New York, diesel is $3.38 per gallon and gasoline is $2.83 per gallon. So, do the math.
Downside to the diesel is the extra costs often involved in repairs and maintenance - and the fact that few "gas engine" mechanics know how to work on injectors and injection pumps. So, they send the stuff out and a $25 repair turns into a $700 repair.
Regardless of the claims that diesels are more simple, they're not. Just happen to have much of the fuel system and ignition system in a cental unit that many do not know how to work on.
A diesel presents more problems to deal with in extreme cold weather. Also needs more battery. As for torque? Many gas engines have exactly the same torque and torque curve when they have the same bore and long stroke. In fact, a gas engine, if equal in bore and stroke to a diesel, will have more power, not less. But, stick a turbo on a diesel and things change.
I'm not trashing diesels. They are by far the best for any serious work. But, for some people and limited useage, they are often more costly overall, not less.
I got raking hay a few weeks ago with my 300 Deere. Mine is a diesel and the other tractor there was a Deere 300 with the gas engine. My diesel used approx. 1 1/2 gallons of diesel per hour and the gas tractor used 2 1/2 gallons per hour. Right now - here in central New York, diesel is $3.38 per gallon and gasoline is $2.83 per gallon. So, do the math.
Downside to the diesel is the extra costs often involved in repairs and maintenance - and the fact that few "gas engine" mechanics know how to work on injectors and injection pumps. So, they send the stuff out and a $25 repair turns into a $700 repair.
Regardless of the claims that diesels are more simple, they're not. Just happen to have much of the fuel system and ignition system in a cental unit that many do not know how to work on.
A diesel presents more problems to deal with in extreme cold weather. Also needs more battery. As for torque? Many gas engines have exactly the same torque and torque curve when they have the same bore and long stroke. In fact, a gas engine, if equal in bore and stroke to a diesel, will have more power, not less. But, stick a turbo on a diesel and things change.
I'm not trashing diesels. They are by far the best for any serious work. But, for some people and limited useage, they are often more costly overall, not less.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Most Diesels will last way longer then a Gas motor. Diesels will also give better fuel economy, and more capability then a gas motor of the same size.
State of Jefferson
Member
Diesel engines are FAR more efficient than gas. You can get more work done with less fuel in a diesel tractor, than a gas machine. That being said, for someone like myself, who burns very little fuel (200ish gals) in a season, I run gas tractors. Older gas tractors are less expensive than thier diesel equivilents. I can afford to loose a little efficiency versus paying another $2-3K for a diesel burner.
Ben
Ben
Michael Soldan
Well-known Member
nope...that's why there's ether..try starting a tractor thats sat in the rain and the cap and rotor are soaked..I'd rather start a worn diesel on ether!
armand tatro
Well-known Member
I will have to agree with you about starting moisture-soaked gas engines but that is easy compared to starting one that has been drowned out with antifreeze. When the ignation system on a gas engine gets anti-freeze on it it is sudden death and is REALLY hard to clean and get restarted. The bright side(if there is one) is that they will not run long enought to over heat!! Armand
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
Diesels Stink!
And they're Noisy!
And they're Noisy!
John M
Well-known Member
- Location
- Nunyafn business
I havent seen diesel cheaper than gas for about 3 years now.
diesels have more power on same fuel.
diesels produce more power just above an idle, gas engine must run twice the rpms for same power.
diesels low rpm means the run up to a million miles on the over the road heavy duty trucks with out an overhaul, where a gas engine would be lucky to do 100,000 on an hd simi truck.
diesels will run with NO battery or ignition system after its started.
diesels cost more up front but last longer and are cheaper in the long run.
up to recently diesel fuel was cheaper than gasolene.
Due to low demand, tractor dealers could no longer sell gas tractors and slowly phased them out.
today.. if you buy a used OLD tractor..
and do snow removal a gas might be easier to start.
if you put lots of hours on it, a diesel will be better.
if you pull heavy loads for long periods, a diesel will be better.
If you do snow removal with a diesel, you need to have a great battery, cold starting aids that work, and possible a block heater. Then your diesel will be fine.
diesels produce more power just above an idle, gas engine must run twice the rpms for same power.
diesels low rpm means the run up to a million miles on the over the road heavy duty trucks with out an overhaul, where a gas engine would be lucky to do 100,000 on an hd simi truck.
diesels will run with NO battery or ignition system after its started.
diesels cost more up front but last longer and are cheaper in the long run.
up to recently diesel fuel was cheaper than gasolene.
Due to low demand, tractor dealers could no longer sell gas tractors and slowly phased them out.
today.. if you buy a used OLD tractor..
and do snow removal a gas might be easier to start.
if you put lots of hours on it, a diesel will be better.
if you pull heavy loads for long periods, a diesel will be better.
If you do snow removal with a diesel, you need to have a great battery, cold starting aids that work, and possible a block heater. Then your diesel will be fine.
It's been all covered pretty well already.
Pretty much it the right engine for the application. You get a longer lasting, more efficient, higher torque at a lower RPM engine.
We have a Farmall Super M and a Kubota that are roughly the same HP. The SM will drink gas compared to the Kubota with it's Diesel engine. Diesels are not as easy to work on IMHO where as a gas engine is pretty simple for most shade tree mechanics to tinker with. The principal is simple, but you need more specialized tools and some of the stuff you simply have to send out to be fixed (pumps, injectors etc). Obviously this is all comparing diesels to older carburetor gas tractors, I'm sure if they still made gas tractors they would be more complex these days.
That being said on the smaller tractors I don't see that big a difference. My Farmall A & BN can be worked hard all day and be pretty darn easy on gas. Then again that what happens when your max RPM is 1450.
K
Pretty much it the right engine for the application. You get a longer lasting, more efficient, higher torque at a lower RPM engine.
We have a Farmall Super M and a Kubota that are roughly the same HP. The SM will drink gas compared to the Kubota with it's Diesel engine. Diesels are not as easy to work on IMHO where as a gas engine is pretty simple for most shade tree mechanics to tinker with. The principal is simple, but you need more specialized tools and some of the stuff you simply have to send out to be fixed (pumps, injectors etc). Obviously this is all comparing diesels to older carburetor gas tractors, I'm sure if they still made gas tractors they would be more complex these days.
That being said on the smaller tractors I don't see that big a difference. My Farmall A & BN can be worked hard all day and be pretty darn easy on gas. Then again that what happens when your max RPM is 1450.
K
Jd, you have it right on when it comes to gas vs diesel.I worked for a JD dealer in the early 50s.The were few diesel engines on small farms.The John Deere R was new then.Here we had a diesel engine started by a pony gas engine.For the small farm gas engines are a far better choice.I have used small diesel tractors but wont be buying one soon.If the diesel was superior we would have more diesel cars and pickups on the road.On farm vegetable oil production will change things in the future.The gulf oil spill will force this change.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
In the early 70's I had a petroleum business.
It was the time when almost everyone was purchasing their first large tractor. There were a few who bought a new 4020, 856, 1850, 190 gas tractors. As I was on good terms with all the dealers in my county they would tell me who bought them. I always made it a point to try to get their farm fuel business. Those old gassers sure were good for business.
It was the time when almost everyone was purchasing their first large tractor. There were a few who bought a new 4020, 856, 1850, 190 gas tractors. As I was on good terms with all the dealers in my county they would tell me who bought them. I always made it a point to try to get their farm fuel business. Those old gassers sure were good for business.
Diesels are far superior. Look at Europe, they have tons of diesel vehicles. Diesels start alot better in the winter than they did 20 years ago. I have a JD 8400 that is a 1998 model. It starts at zero degrees like it was 90 degrees out.I have a 2003 Dodge Ram with a Cummins Turbo diesel. It gets 20mpg empty and my Grand Am with a V-6 gets 26 and the the truck weighs 2 times as much
Think you better check some specs. Show me one tractor engine that has more power in the diesel version (non turbo) versus gas - when they have the same bore and stroke. Bet you cannot name a single one.
In fact, when tractor companies sell tractor models by their power, e.g. like a "33 horse tractor", the diesel version often has to be BIGGER just to make the same power as the gas version.
For example- Deere 1020 uses a 135 gas or a 152 diesel to make the same power.
And a Deere 1010 uses a 115 gas engine or a 144 diesel to make the same power.
With cars and trucks? GM made the 379 diesel to equal the power and torque of the 305 gas engine.
Take two Ford tractors with the 172 engines - gas and diesel. The gas has more power.
I could name examples to make my point all night long.
Show me even that makes your point and shows a non-turbo diesel making more power than an equal sized (bore and stroke) gas engine.
In fact, when tractor companies sell tractor models by their power, e.g. like a "33 horse tractor", the diesel version often has to be BIGGER just to make the same power as the gas version.
For example- Deere 1020 uses a 135 gas or a 152 diesel to make the same power.
And a Deere 1010 uses a 115 gas engine or a 144 diesel to make the same power.
With cars and trucks? GM made the 379 diesel to equal the power and torque of the 305 gas engine.
Take two Ford tractors with the 172 engines - gas and diesel. The gas has more power.
I could name examples to make my point all night long.
Show me even that makes your point and shows a non-turbo diesel making more power than an equal sized (bore and stroke) gas engine.
Yeah a 560 gas vs diesel. Tune them to the same hp and the diesel will pull a load better and a plow better. Plus all your examples are from the days when diesel engines were not perfected in that area. Why dont you show me a gas and diesel engine that have the same power curves and such. All of your examples are from when tractor manufacturers where making diesels engines with no technology in them. JD 720 diesel lugs alog better than a gas. I have both and they dyno the same, and when you pull a hill with a load the diesel walks away with it. Most non turbo engines today will blow away a gas engine because of better fuel deleviry technology. but I know for sure that an IH 560 diesel will blow away a gas version even if they run the same hp on my dyno, because I have done it. My friend has 2 560s and we did it at my place last fall, just to prove to him like I am doing to you that a diesel engine will produce more power. Your using facts from 40 years ago.
Your still talking 40 year old technology. Today with higher fuel pressure, better piston design and common rail fuel systems, a diesel is better than a gas. WITH the new diesel tech, two engines of equal size, the diesel would win. Plus they start perfect in the winter to.
Unless I'm missing something here, this IS a tractor forum that deals mainly in old tractors?? It IS called "Yesterday's Tractors."
Also note I said a "non-turbo" diesel compared a gas engine with the same bore and stroke. I said nothing about any "common rail" diesels which are mostt turbocharged.
And about your comments about the 560 IH?? That makes no sense to me. I DID say "equal sized" engines. 560 gas is usually only 263 cubic inches at rated at 72.5 horse. 560 diesel is bigger at 281 cubic inches and is rated the same 72.5 horse. If that gas engine was as big as the diesel, it would have more power.
Also note I said a "non-turbo" diesel compared a gas engine with the same bore and stroke. I said nothing about any "common rail" diesels which are mostt turbocharged.
And about your comments about the 560 IH?? That makes no sense to me. I DID say "equal sized" engines. 560 gas is usually only 263 cubic inches at rated at 72.5 horse. 560 diesel is bigger at 281 cubic inches and is rated the same 72.5 horse. If that gas engine was as big as the diesel, it would have more power.
The 560s HAVE THE SAME SIZE ENGINE GENIUS!!!!! MAN ARE YOU AN IDIOT. HA HA HA HA. You can put the crank from a diesel into a gas, so they are the same engine. Today a diesel is better and more efficient. There are a ton of common rail fuel injected diesels out there. I just one this argument. Checkmate.
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