Permanent magnet starters

I don't know if they are using PM starters in the big tractors but I know they are used on the smaller riding lawn mowers etc. In our last discussion we learned that the magnetic field of a PM comes from the atoms of the material( E=MC squared) & not from the imput wattage used to charge the PM. Here's the proof. Even Jim J in a round about way said that a PM starter is more efficient than one with field windings. Lets say it takes an average of 3000 watts to start an engine with a conventional starter. Lets say that a pm starter is (I will be conserveitive)(sp) is 1% more efficient. So It would use 30 watts less to do the same job. Now if the energy was coming from the imput wattage it would have to deplete that power by 30 watts every time the starter was used. You don't get something from nothing. So how many starts would you get? If we used 2000 watts to charge the magnets we would divide 30 into 2000 and get only 66.66 starts! So we are harnessing energy from E=MC squared on a daily basis without knowing it. I also pointed out some time ago that the heater motors of the 60's had wound field coils and were fused at a greater amperage than the motors using PM of today. You don't get some thing from nothing but from E=MC squared. As the atoms of the material release that energy, it is done on a 100 % basis . There are no friction losses to account for. If you can understand this, why is it so hard to understand what the Energy Machine Of Joe Newman is doing? Some time ago B&D and others said PM are like springs & you only get back what you put into them. That is true if you just put them together & pull them apart. It is like pushing a fishing bobber down in the water & it will pop back up again. But if you put a water wheel in that river water you can harness that energy. That is all Joe Newman's machine is doing. B&D also felt he had a hidden energy scource. Well would you like to hear that he does. The source is the atoms of the copper coil and permanent magnet. We can't see them as individual atoms so yes I guess you could say they are hidden. I posted 2 links to 2 men that tested Joe's machine that said the out put was greater than the imput. It got bashed as BS. If you are saying that the above is BS than I feel sorry for you. I don't know much but I try to use enough common sense to get by with what little I know. When I see something (Joe's machine) working and can understand how and why it works, it is very hard to convince me otherwise. Open your mind. This is for real! I found it interesting that nobody challenged Joe's teaching about how the current knows which way to go when induced into a wire or how PM attract and repell. Maybe it is because it it not to be found in conventional teaching. Joe is a college drop out because he had questions in his mind that were not answered in conventional teaching. He went on teaching himself to get the answers. In his book, he has gone way beyond conventional teaching about magnets etc. Hold the bashing. It doesn't hurt me & does no good. I thank the moderators for the priviledge to post.

If you can understand "this", why is it so hard to understand what the Energy Machine Of Joe Newman is doing? "This", being your mis-connection of a few disjoint facts is nothing to be understood.

The following may look as though it makes sense too, but you will not find a lot of serious believers.

We know that in order for current to flow, there has to be a complete circuit (a loop), i.e. the generator at the power plant sends current thru a wire out to your house, thru the light bulb and back thru another wire to the power plant generator.
Thomas Edison, the inventor from New Jersey, came up with the phonograph in 1877, but it just set until the record was invented.
He came up with other gadgets like light bulbs, vacuum tubes & such until 1879, when he invented the electric company. His direct current design was brilliant (later proved to be not-so-brilliant as Tesla/Westinghouse Alternating Current, but none the less still brilliant). The electric company sends electricity thru a wire to a customer, then at the speed of light gets the same electricity back, thru another wire, then (and this is the REALLY brilliant part) sends it right back to the customer again! This means that the electric company can sell the customer the same batch of electricity thousands of times a day and never get caught, since very few customers take the time to examine their electricity closely. In fact, the last year in which any NEW electricity was generated in the United States of America was 1937. The electric companies have merely been re-selling it ever since, which is why they have so much free time to apply for rate increases.

Plagiarized from Dave Barry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Don't forget hydro power. When they run the water through those dams, it sucks all of the electricity out of it. That's why you only see one hydro-electric plant per river. After the water runs through one dam, all the electricity is gone.

OH, and by the way, feel free to "prove Mr. Barry wrong."

Gee, JMOR youre just rattling Teddys chain right????????? wink wink

"Don't forget hydro power. When they run the water through those dams, it sucks all of the electricity out of it. That's why you only see one hydro-electric plant per river. After the water runs through one dam, all the electricity is gone."

Here I always thought the "potential energy" of that huge mass of water (being at a higher elevation) was used to turn the water turbine generators as gravity pulls it down and that it was the water turbine driven Generatros that created the electricity SILLY ME LOL (I know you were just kidding him, but had to comment for the benefit of BS)

Its humorous to see yall trying to convice each other and its obvious despite a thousand pages of explanations or attempts or God himself issuing an edict YOURE NOT GOING TO CHANGE EACH OTHERS MINDS SO WHY TRY

Yall have fun with this now, Im enjoying sittin on the side with a few tid bits thrown at yall now n then

John T (Electrical Engineer who chooses to disbelieve a machine can produce more energy then it consumes THATS MY STORY N IMA STICKIN TO IT)

(quoted from post at 11:49:52 05/27/10) Gee, JMOR youre just rattling Teddys chain right????????? wink wink

"Don't forget hydro power. When they run the water through those dams, it sucks all of the electricity out of it. That's why you only see one hydro-electric plant per river. After the water runs through one dam, all the electricity is gone."

Here I always thought the "potential energy" of that huge mass of water (being at a higher elevation) was used to turn the water turbine generators as gravity pulls it down and that it was the water turbine driven Generatros that created the electricity SILLY ME LOL (I know you were just kidding him, but had to comment for the benefit of BS)

Its humorous to see yall trying to convice each other and its obvious despite a thousand pages of explanations or attempts or God himself issuing an edict YOURE NOT GOING TO CHANGE EACH OTHERS MINDS SO WHY TRY

Yall have fun with this now, Im enjoying sittin on the side with a few tid bits thrown at yall now n then

John T (Electrical Engineer who chooses to disbelieve a machine can produce more energy then it consumes THATS MY STORY N IMA STICKIN TO IT)

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o serious convincing going on here, John. Strictly entertainment, diversion. No one has any 'good' tractor problems lately!
I guess I could go break something on one of mine, but where would the fun be in that...I would know how to fix it. :roll:

Ya know... there's a lot of windmill generators out there that use 'permanent' 'rare earth' magnets. They're very powerfull magnets... but with a lack of wind, still no power. I'll be some glad to know that I don't need wind to get power up on the hill where I want to build.... Just need me one of Joe's machines

Rod

tis is almost like that edon pure heater you can pull from one room to another uses less hydro than any ather heater HaHA electricity is 100% efficeint no matter what name is on it.

If I where Joe and I was that certain of this motor I would do the following. Start contacting manufacturing plants and offer them the motor "free of charge" to use for one year. Make it a legal agreement. If it does what he says then he would have REAL proof of his claims. In other words prove your claims by demonstration. When people have a great invention they get it out there. You say he has a patent in Mexico. Well lets see the product in use. Until we see it in practical use it will remain "horsefeathers" Tell Joe to make us all look like fools for not beleiveing in him. All of the formulas and explanations are for nothing if you can"t show a good usable working product.
I am very suspicious of his videos. The one showing the flywheel apears to be the backend of a large industrial engine with the head removed. note the grease where it is sitting on a platform. I suspect that there is an electric motor hooked to the other end of it. Why would an electric motor look like an engine block?

but, but, but, what about the ETD?

John, I think that was more of the Dave Barry story, and as you know, Dave Berry is never serious about anything. Love his stuff. Some of this blather about the perpetual motion machine almost sounds like it could have come from him.

Interesting sidelight on hydropower- Its the cheapest power there is, of course (I'm looking at my 'lectric bill- 4.55 cents per KW), and completely renewable- that ole rain just keeps coming down. But for purposes of the federal edict that each power company sell at least 10% "green" power, hydropower isn't "green"! Reason is simple- if they allowed hydro to count as green, everyone would buy cheap hydro for their 10%, instead of subsidizing the much more expensive wind and solar.

Yeppers, it looks like once they recover the cost of the Dern Dam (but such serves many other purposes also) and build the power plant the upkeep and maintenance is reasonable for several yearsssssssssss. This big honkin Generators spin n spin n spin as she rains n rains n rains.

That process uses stored Potential Energy (water at higher elevation),,,,,Converts it to Kinetic Energy (the falling moving water mass 1/2 MV Squared),,,,,,,,,,,To rotational mechanical energy to turn the gennys water turbines,,,,,,,,To electrical energy wooooooooo hooooooooooo gotta love energy and how it can be converted but NOT destroyed (I guess unless we get into splititn atoms etc and Im out to lunch then

BUT HOW IS RAIN WATER AND IT FALLING NOT GREEN AND RENEWABLE???????????????????? Im serious???

I hear the radical tree huggers dont even like wind power because once a bird flew into the propeller and died HEY THATS TRUE

John T

It's always like that. Never ending claims, patents, etc. Never hook it up and do anything. Perp motion, hydrogen generators, 200 mpg carburetors. "Big Oil" suppressed it. blah blah blah

The trick to being an effective bureaucrat is to be able to legislate social engineering in a manner that appears to be something else. Hydro just doesn't fit into the "model" the way they want it to, so they just quietly define it out of the equation.

Same thing happens in racial social engineering- All kinds of preferences for minorities. . . but what do you do about the Asians? They are generally smarter and more ambitious than anyone- so they quietly make an exception for Asians in minority preference rules.

Also, at least in Washington state, anyone with a communicable disease is required to so advise any medical professional working on him- except, AIDS or HIV need not be disclosed, and the medical professional can't even ask! Its right in the statute, and is the only exception. Can't offend the gays, ya know. . . My wife is a Dental Hygienist, and with blood flying around, they are especially vulnerable to HIV/AIDS- So the front office gals have gotten pretty good at identifying folks who may be gay, and will mention "Mr. X appears to be a little light in the loafers- Suit up!" On goes the extra clothing, full face shield, double gloves, etc.

Soooooo, Lets simplify here. Perpetual motion is when you sit down in the chair and you forgot a beer. You get up to get one, sit down and the remote is across the room. You get the remote, sit down and the dog wants out. You let him out and sit down and the eletricity goes out. So you go do something else.
Or on the other hand; I can't pull a plow or mower by myself. But with them hooked to the tractor and with a slight amount of foot and hand pressure imput to the controls I can get the tractor to pull them. Aren't I therefore getting out more work than I'm putting in???
Forgive me; It's been a long boring day here.

Energy wise, everything boils down to watts. It is impossible to get a larger return of watts than what is put in. There is always a certain percentage of loss in the conversion of one type of energy to another. Friction and heat are the factors that dictate the amount of loss. A transformer converts some of it's energy to heat. An engine converts some of it's energy to heat from combustion and some of it's energy is converted to heat from friction.
There is no such thing as 100% efficient. There is always a byproduct of some kind siphoning off a little of the input. Can't produce 2 watts from 1 watt.

How do you get the PMs to change polarity to keep the motor running?????
Walt

You don't. You change the polarity in the field coils in Joes machine or in the armature in a starter motor. In a PM motor if you reverse the battery the motor will run backwards.

RE: "But what about the ETD". A simple answer for those of us with simple minds. The ETD was developed before those pesky "Laws of Physics" were passed. My model of the ETD, which I keep hidden under a straw pile in the barn so that "They" can't find it is a great example. You add one gallon of gas to one gallon of water and you will recover 5 Gal of fuel from the overflow after a hard days work.
The law firm of U.R. Hooked & B.I.G Crook have tried to buy it from me but I think they work for big oil. I am here to inform you that in no way are there any magnets big or small or is any additive in the form of E=MC2 involved in this. At no time do any atoms swirl around each other while it is running. although, at one time I did annoy a wasp nest in the barn and had several of them whizzing around me. Teddy, you have my utmost admiration for your refusal to give in to these rascals. We in the South understand fighting for a lost cause. If my distant Cousin, General Robt' E Lee where still alive he would want to shake your hand.
Yesterday morning I was in N Alabama. i am writing this from a motel in Clearwater Fl. It is Darn hot and humid here. Get me back to the farm. Traffic is terrible here.

Quote" In our last discussion we learned that the magnetic field of a PM comes from the atoms of the material( E=MC squared)" Unquote

Who is "we"? It's only you on that incorrect tangent.

Quote" B&D also felt he had a hidden energy scource." Unquote

Take that back you bald faced liar.

Teddy You are falling for Joe's half truths which are lies. Just like all those people that send $$$ into those TV evangelists who believe the half truths.

Careful Joe and Teddy will believe that.

Ever wonder why OEM manufacturers do not use permanent magnets in automotive/light truck starter motors?

Answer: Demagnetization.

Dean

(quoted from post at 19:58:42 05/27/10) Ever wonder why OEM manufacturers do not use permanent magnets in automotive/light truck starter motors?

Answer: Demagnetization.

Dean

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ean, some do. A Geo that I worked on recently, for one.

Dean, all starters nowadays are PM magnet type...

(quoted from post at 20:18:57 05/27/10) Dean, all starters nowadays are PM magnet type...

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ow, now, Brian, you & I & Dean all know the liabilities that go with that word "ALL".

The permanent magnet starter motor gets its power from the same place any other electric starter gets its power from: the vehicle's battery. It doesn't magically create energy from the molecules of the magnets. Also, I don't think it's a true statement that it's more efficient. As far as I know, PM starters are used because of their light weight and high torque, not because they're efficient.

Just so we're comparing apples and apples, lets look at the equivalent starters produced by Sky-Tec, the leading manufacturer of starter for reciprocating Lycoming aircraft engines. Sky-Tec offers nearly identical starters in both wound-field and permanent magnet versions. Check out the link below. Compare the HT and PM/LS models. The 12 volt versions are rated at the identical horsepower while drawing the same current. With the 24 volt versions, the PM starter has a bit more horsepower (10 percent), but it draws a LOT more current (48 percent!). Conclusion: the permanent magnet starter is no more efficient than an equivalent wound-field starter.

Teddy, it's time for you to come clean. How much money do you have invested in Joe Newman's "Energy Machine"? I know you've claimed otherwise in the past, but there's no way you would continue down this path unless you have some skin in the game.
Sky Tec Starters

I once had a neighbor who had a old Dodge pickup.. He claimed it ran on perpetual motion.. Always said:

"I bought the truck X many miles ago with 3/4 of a tank, and it still has 3/4 of a tank"

I always told him his gas gauge was broken LOL

Felt the need to add this..

Brad

OK I will take it back. I believe that post is gone so there is no way of knowing. But that was the way I understood your reply some time ago. No need for name calling.

I think I was quoting someone else. Sorry for the mix-up.

(quoted from post at 00:23:30 05/28/10) OK I will take it back. I believe that post is gone so there is no way of knowing. But that was the way I understood your reply some time ago. No need for name calling.

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No way of knowing! What?!! I haven't been reading b&d's post all that long, but even I can be damn sure that he didn't endorse your 'hidden energy source'!!!!

O.K Teddy. Lets get really serious for a minute. I assume you are quoting Joe when you para-phrase E=MC2. I.E Energy is equal to Mass times the speed of light. This to me is the BIG problem with the whole thing. Look up a good explanation of this equation and tell me where it implies that more energy is produced than is applied. Don't confuse mass with matter. This equation was to help understand the Theory of Relativity. I don't understand how it applies to Joe's idea.

Am I missing something here? How can that be incorrect? When you pass a wire through a magnetic field at right angles to the lines of force, a current is induced into the wire. It travels at C (186000 miles per second.)Common sense says that what is moving in the field has to be traveling at that speed also. A golf ball will never travel faster than the club that hit it. Please explain your thinking. Inquiring minds want to know.

Now you are grasping at straws if you think that is a large engine block. What does his 1st prototype in the 1st 17 minute look like to you? It looks to me to be a cluster of big magnets rotating inside of a large coil. I am sure the one with the big flywheel is similiar. Good point about getting a company to use it Do you have someone in mind? Back in the 90's , Joe was to the point of taking orders for a motor to run a gen. to provide power to a home. Price of $7000 with half down with the order. This was to go to a bank & not to Joe. When $5 million was in the bank, he was going to start producing without a patent. The goal was never reached & the money was returned. If he was a fraud (scam artist) he would have kept it. Right now Joe is so broke, he can't do much. He tried to get in the NY stock exchange so people could buy stocks but that failed. I don't know the details of why. A big company will not touch it without patent protection. They could put millions of $$$ into R&D and as soon as they start selling , the next company could copy & profit with no R&D money spent. This is like a new born baby. All it has done so far is to prove that there is a new source of energy. It will take a lot of collective minds working together to see what all can be developed from it. I say issue the patent and see if he has something or not. Thanks for the time.

I have never said he has a patent in Mexico. I can't say if he does or not. Would you rather buy the product from here or there? Do you know of a company in Mexico that will put money into R&D to produce it?

Well if all the energy was from the battery, then why put those PM fields in there? It should run without. Good luck. I have nothing invested in Joe or his machine. Back when I 1st heard about it ,I was sceptcal too but I was also curious enough to buy his book. I spent months studying in my spare time thinking that if he had a machine that puts out more than in, he would not reveal it all in his book. I was trying to figure out what was missing. The more I studied, the more convinced I became that it will work. Some time ago I posted the link to the report given by Rodger Hastings. Him & I are both from Mn. I got his # & called him to see what was going on. He said he made many trips trying to prove him wrong. He only proved him right. That machine was putting out more than in. In one of the videos he said " When you have seen and tested a machine that puts out more than in, if you have any conscience at all, you can't walk away from that." Rodger is but one of many 35-40 that have done the testing and put their life on the line stating that the output is greater than the imput. Conventional teaching says that is impossible. Joe is a college drop-out. There were questions in his mind not answered by the teaching of the time. He broke away from the rut of conventional teaching, did his own studying & discovered a new source of energy. He has been met with nothing but resistance ever since. If the patent would have been issued when applied for, by now we would be phasing out the use of oil & gas prices would keep getting cheaper not higher. There would be no need for more drilling. There is a big mess in the Gulf now that we have no Idea what the outcome will be. It wasn't on the tv news that I heard but on another site there is a report of another leak 22 miles south of Alabama in the ocean floor. It seems that as the oil from that well comes out, the pressure of the water is bending down the ocean floor & a crack has opened up. That mess is getting serious. It is too late for Joe's machine to stop it now. All I am trying to do is to help make the world a better place for my kids & grandkids & I wish you all could help to do the same.Thank you.

Whoa. Your premise that Crackpot Joe tried to get listed on the New York Stock Exchange is even more preposterous than the idea that he built a perpetual motion machine in his back yard. There are some very large corporations that can't get listed on the NYSE.

I answered your question in my first post: "...PM starters are used because of their light weight and high torque, not because they're efficient."

May I suggest that you take the time to complete an introductory physics course at your local community college? Then you can at least get the terminology right. Your posts sound like a Baptist trying to explain Buddhism. If you're going to debunk something, it's best that you understand it so people will think you know what you're talking about.

(quoted from post at 14:53:31 05/28/10) Am I missing something here? How can that be incorrect? When you pass a wire through a magnetic field at right angles to the lines of force, a current is induced into the wire. It travels at C (186000 miles per second.)Common sense says that what is moving in the field has to be traveling at that speed also. A golf ball will never travel faster than the club that hit it. Please explain your thinking. Inquiring minds want to know.

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Ok. I now understand that you don't understand how electricity works. Once more for the last time. The line or copper wire or becomes "charged" Electricity dosn't go firing down the wires at the speed of light. The wire becomes charged. I don't know how else to explain it.

Heading up north to the deer shack this afternoon. See ya next week. John T, keep sitting back smiling. I am sure you are being amused!

(quoted from post at 15:10:59 05/28/10) Heading up north to the deer shack this afternoon. See ya next week. John T, keep sitting back smiling. I am sure you are being amused!

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Well, thank you! It sure took you a long time to tell all of us that you were posting all this 'stuff' for all this time just for our amusement.