permanent magnets.

Just to keep this tractor related, I have a magnet charger that I use to charge the rotor on magneto's used on old tractors. There seems to be a hint of some learning in the last post. When I bring up E=MC squared, it seems bombs are all that is thought of or fizzle physics. When I charged a magnet some time ago I put my meters on the battery of the charger. It showed 200 amps at 11 volts =2200 watts. Lets call it 2m for short. Now take four different materials with the same mass & put the 2m charge to them. First a brick or piece of wood. shut off the charger & no results. Then a piece of soft iron such as is used in the poles of a tractor generator. 2m in & shut it off produces a small magnetic field that will pick up filings & maybe a paper clip.It can be picked off the charger with ease. It will show a n & s pole when checked with a compass. Then the rotor of a mag, 2m in & shut it off. This time it takes some effort to remove it. Then a piece of rare earth magnet material. 2m in & shut it off. Now it takes a lot of effort & is hard to remove. So what does that tell you? It tells me the magnetic field is coming from the material & not from the imput wattage. 4 different materials with the same imput & 4 different results. All the imput does is align the atoms of the material. Also once maximum alignment is reached for that material the field will never be any stronger no matter how much imput is used. So if it is coming from the material it must be matter and is matter in motion. It is the smallest endity of matter. When Faraday passed a wire through a mag field he found that a current was produced in the wire. Now a current moves at 186000 miles per sec. It is C in E=mc squared. So wouldn't it make sense that what is in a magnetic field must be moving at C? You don't get something from nothing. No matter how fast or slow the wire is moved, the speed of the current is the same. Would it be possible that those particles could be spinning at C also?? Even wicapedia talks about spinning particles in a magnetic field. So you have C X C or C squared . Now anything that is spinning will show the properties of a gyroscope. That is how the current knows which way to go. When the wire passes through the field it deflects the spin & like a cycle wheel, if you put a force to turn left, the left side will drop down. Force to the right & right will right will drop down. Spinning the wheel backwards will cause everything to reverse. Moving the wire parallel to the lines of force will not pick up a charge no matter how fast it is moved. Just like a cycle if equal force is used on the handlebars it will stay in a straight line. Looking at a PM (permanent magnet). If you put iron filings on a paper will show the lines of force. They are curved from one end to the other. It shows the flow of particles out one end and back in the other being spread in the middle & concentrated at the ends. Now they may look like curved lines but with their spin & gyroscopic features they will be traveling in a fashion like a cork screw. When unlike poles are brought together the spin of the particles will pull them tighter together just like corkscrews will when turned in to each other. When like poles are brought together, the spin is opposite & they will repell just like corkscrews turning backwards .This is just a summary of what is in Joe's book. He goes into great detail with many pictures & drawings to explain it. School's out. Open your mind & absorb. Thanks for your time. More tomorrow unless I get too much bashing.

Fun reading, for us "Nerds" at least. Hey I got plenty of that magnetic field theory and permanent and electromagnetic field gobbilly goop including Maxwells Equations back at Purdue.

Also I WILL NOT BASH YOU (or argue or try and convince you) its a free country and we all have the right to our opinions, be they right or wrong. Mine, as based upon my engineering education and experience, just happens to be different from yours NOT A PROBLEM. I'm of the opinion its physically impossibe for a machine to produce more energy then it consumes PERIOD. (Those pesky Laws of Thermodynamics and how friction creates heat which the output device cant convert into useable energy grrrrrrrrrr lol) If you or anyone choose to believe differently no sweat off my nose so go for it, build it or invest and get wealthy, thats the American dream. I probably will choose NOT to believe or invest and youre free to do as you please.

God Bless America and Im glad people can have free choices and opinions even if they are wrong or right...

John T

Joe, you are confusing the speed of light with the speed of electrical current. Elec.current flows at a speed of inches per hour. Google it before you answer this.

I get it; I believe!!! Sometimes I have a little spare change left over from the weekly allowance SWMBO gives me; I MIGHT be willing to invest.

(quoted from post at 18:45:13 05/25/10) Joe, you are confusing the speed of light with the speed of electrical current. Elec.current flows at a speed of inches per hour. Google it before you answer this.

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for one am sure glad to know that. Next time I see lightening coming my way, I can finish my beer, maybe several ,before I head for the storm cellar. :roll:

yes, I didn't get all the info did I. Its the speed of electricity in copper wire. They speak of electricty as flowing but it really dosn't flow like water in a pipe. Yea you can't outrun a lightning bolt thats for sure.

More akin to aligning all the blades on a fan to tilt each to the same pitch and direction. Is what "magnetizing" a soft iron bar accomplishes.
How do you explain ceramic and rare earth magnets that are powerful without being "energized" with a dc power supply?
Now when the "blades/magnet is moved, electrons/air is pushed.
Sorry Teddy but magnets are like old "shell game" with the pea. Unless you know what is going on, appearances indicate the pea should be under the shell you seen it initially get covered with. Instead the pea is found under another shell.
No quantum physics used to pass the pea through the solid walls of the shells either.

Actually it's true.
Remember those swinging ball thingmajigs on some peoples desks? Drop the end ball, the middle two doesn't move but the end ball flys endways. Something similar with electricity in an conductor.

Two items stick out in your note:
To charge a material that can become a permanent magnet it is (in industry) by placing the material in an extreme magnetic field (usually a chamber designed for said purpose). The material is put into a condition (heat, powder, crystallization, or other methods of allowing the magnetic dipoles of the material to be able to align with the presented extreme field. Fields (gauge theory) in physics are serious business, in which great ideas are often planted. Whei it is in this state it is cooled, sintered, condensed, or crystallized to "lock in the orientation of the dipoles.
One way to do this (out of the lab or production floor is to run current through the material. Assuming it conducts)
This high current does/can rearrange the dipoles to less random orientations, improving the magnet some. It is not the primary method of charging a magnet. Only things that are Ferromagnetic, or compounds that form permanent magnets (Samarium/Cobalt, Neodymium, and others) can be magnetized. As pointed out in the attached content there are three categories of materials that show magnetic properties. Bricks do not.
Quote from you: "So if it is coming from the material it must be matter and is matter in motion" A magnetic field is not matter, it is a continuum of force tapering with distance (in most cases with the inverse square law. It is clearly understood to be a field of quantum Electro Dynamics. QED. This force has no mass, is always transparent, can bend and affect other magnetic fields, and Light (which is by the way a magnetic field).

The force can only act as a spring to bounce things, or a motion generator to drag things (electrons) in a conductor. To do so requires it to be powered by something either moving it, or changing its applied force. (see mechanical magnetic chucks) There is no intrinsic energy (fuel to do work) in any magnet, no matter how powerful, or complicated.

I would make one suggestion. Put down Joe's material and get into the real physics from pure scientific thinking and concrete understanding. Then re-read the balderdash in the material from Joe.

I say this as a realist that would wish (with my heart) that there was reality hidden in the material. It is just not there. Faith is dependent on willingness to not know. With warm regards, Jim
Magentism and materials.

(quoted from post at 20:57:30 05/25/10) Two items stick out in your note:
To charge a material that can become a permanent magnet it is (in industry) by placing the material in an extreme magnetic field (usually a chamber designed for said purpose). The material is put into a condition (heat, powder, crystallization, or other methods of allowing the magnetic dipoles of the material to be able to align with the presented extreme field. Fields (gauge theory) in physics are serious business, in which great ideas are often planted. Whei it is in this state it is cooled, sintered, condensed, or crystallized to "lock in the orientation of the dipoles.
One way to do this (out of the lab or production floor is to run current through the material. Assuming it conducts)
This high current does/can rearrange the dipoles to less random orientations, improving the magnet some. It is not the primary method of charging a magnet. Only things that are Ferromagnetic, or compounds that form permanent magnets (Samarium/Cobalt, Neodymium, and others) can be magnetized. As pointed out in the attached content there are three categories of materials that show magnetic properties. Bricks do not.
Quote from you: "So if it is coming from the material it must be matter and is matter in motion" A magnetic field is not matter, it is a continuum of force tapering with distance (in most cases with the inverse square law. It is clearly understood to be a field of quantum Electro Dynamics. QED. This force has no mass, is always transparent, can bend and affect other magnetic fields, and Light (which is by the way a magnetic field).

The force can only act as a spring to bounce things, or a motion generator to drag things (electrons) in a conductor. To do so requires it to be powered by something either moving it, or changing its applied force. (see mechanical magnetic chucks) There is no intrinsic energy (fuel to do work) in any magnet, no matter how powerful, or complicated.

I would make one suggestion. Put down Joe's material and get into the real physics from pure scientific thinking and concrete understanding. Then re-read the balderdash in the material from Joe.

I say this as a realist that would wish (with my heart) that there was reality hidden in the material. It is just not there. Faith is dependent on willingness to not know. With warm regards, Jim
Magentism and materials.

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Jim N, that is a keeper!
"Faith is dependent on willingness to not know."

If there is an error in the theory the theory is not correct. There are several serious errors in this theory. To quote one of my favorite English sayings. "You really gob smacked us with that one mate"

JMOR,

What Hugh was talking about is "drift velocity", the average velocity of electrons in a conductor. Although it's of interest to physicists and I suppose there are some engineering applications, it doesn't matter much to most of us. Lightning bolts, electrical signals and electrons shot out of the cathode of a cathode ray tube all travel at near-light speeds.
Drift velocity

The question is not whether Joe Newman knows anything about physics but whether or not he has built a machine that produces more energy than it consumes. Fleischmann and Pons are both acknowledged to be brilliant scientists, but they ended up looking like a couple of jerks when they claimed to have created nuclear fusion in a beaker of heavy water. If and when an independent expert confirms Newman's findings, the world will take notice. Until then, he remains a crackpot.

I would add that if Newman's device actually works, he blew his best opportunity to prove it with the NBS tests. I think a more reasonable explanation is that Newman is a crackpot and a fraud.

Did you ever think that conventional teaching may be flawed? It seems like Joe broke away from it and was the first to build an overunity machine. Many years ago he issued an open challenge for some one to prove him wrong. I believe the prize was $10,000. To this day, nobody has done so. Maybe you could try to be the first. Others have tried but proved him right not wrong.

The word "electricity" is misleading. I look at it as the wire is "Charged". I understand that the charge dosn't move if there is no draw on the line. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know what they call it but the speed of light does enter into the circuit. But that is not what joe was refering to. I have no training in this. My brother was the Elec. eng.

Thank you for the non bash. At least we can agree to disagree. How is it that a farmer uses his tractor to plant 100 bu wheat in the spring and in the fall harvests thousands of bu? You figure the imput of seed, rain , sunshine & soil to produce that crop. But if he continues to harvest year after year it will deplete the soil. Likewise in Joe's machine, as the energy is harvested it will deplete the mass. But it will be so little that it may take hundreds or thousands of years to be able to measure it. E=MC squared. You don't get something from nothing. Joe has a whole chapter in his book about thermodynamics. The working principals of his machine supports those laws & doesn't break them. Did you ever check out the link about his battle with the patent office. You will find it interesting. I am sure you know more about court proceedings than I do. Check out the report of the special master.Thank you for keeping it civil.

Like I said before. Joe has issued an open challange for some one to prove him wrong. That was many years ago. To this day no one has done so. He has proven his theory is correct by building prototypes of overunity, not perpetual motion machines.

I just checked it out & it looks like those are the results of the observed effects. Sometimes that can be misleading. Case in point. Years ago the people thought the earth was flat. That was proven wrong. Also they thought the sun moved around the earth. The observed effects still look like it does. Comes up in the east, moves through the sky & sets in the west. But that was also proven wrong. Have a good day.

Try investing some effort in helping Joe get a patent. That is all I am doing. I have no money invested. Let the market place decide. If he has nothing, it will fall away in no time. If it is good , which I believe it is, what will it develope into?

You are entitled to your opinion,but since when does a fraud write a book telling how & why it works.

(quoted from post at 07:12:37 05/26/10) Try investing some effort in helping Joe get a patent. That is all I am doing. I have no money invested. Let the market place decide. If he has nothing, it will fall away in no time. If it is good , which I believe it is, what will it develope into?

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eems to me that the market place has spoken. No one has bought, nor is he making any sales of his 'pile'.

Dear Teddy, I do not need to prove anything. It is in the interest of good practice to prove your contention on your own (in this case Joe's) He has had years to make good on his contention that over unity exists. If it did, and even if it was tiny, he would have no need for any batteries at all ever.
Just a tiny push would get it making all the power needed to make it operate. It does not, it cannot, it never will. There is no free lunch, those that appear free were paid for by others. I respect your opinion on tractor issues, you are bright and willing to learn and participate with the forum. Going beyond the faith you have espoused is your nickle. When you have a device running with no battery or energy input, we will look it over, send pictures. Magnetic bearings are available that (if placed in a vacuum) have no friction at all. If used on his machine, it should whir like a dervish. It won't.
I teach the limit of my student's ability. I push them hard. If I push them over the edge, I will have ruined them. I am not conservative, I dig into the content I posted and understand it. It is not obsolete, it is the best of (and a brief intro to) the real content of magnetism. Best of luck, Jim