- Thread starter guido
- Start date
What you're seeing is an artifact of the way digital multimeters work. A digital meter has very high input impedance (millions of ohms), which means it takes very little current (millionths of an amp) to operate the meter. Even at 60 Hz, the stray capacitance between the table top and the power wiring provides plenty of current.
Small currents can also be induced in loops...try holding the meter leads in your fingers, one in each hand, and see what it reads. You'll be reading the voltage induced in the electrical loop formed by your body and the meter leads from the stray magnetic fields created by the AC power wiring.
Mechanical analog meters require some flow of current through the meter to physically move the needle, and had input impedances measured in thousands of ohms, or even hundreds of ohms for cheapie meters. With a relatively low imput impedance, stray capacitance can't pass enough curent to operate the meter, and you don't get these kinds of stray readings.
Hope this helps a little....kind of hard to explain without getting into a lot of engineering terminology, but there's nothing at all surprising about what you're seeing. A lot of time has been wasted in electronics labs getting erroneous readings because the engineers and techs don't understand this phenomenon.
Keith
Small currents can also be induced in loops...try holding the meter leads in your fingers, one in each hand, and see what it reads. You'll be reading the voltage induced in the electrical loop formed by your body and the meter leads from the stray magnetic fields created by the AC power wiring.
Mechanical analog meters require some flow of current through the meter to physically move the needle, and had input impedances measured in thousands of ohms, or even hundreds of ohms for cheapie meters. With a relatively low imput impedance, stray capacitance can't pass enough curent to operate the meter, and you don't get these kinds of stray readings.
Hope this helps a little....kind of hard to explain without getting into a lot of engineering terminology, but there's nothing at all surprising about what you're seeing. A lot of time has been wasted in electronics labs getting erroneous readings because the engineers and techs don't understand this phenomenon.
Keith
Guido, As you know if were talkin standard 120/240 VAC Single Phase 3 Wire household supply, thats an earth grounded system having the secondary Neutral (a grounded conductor) bonded to good old Mother Earth at the service entrance, and as Im sure you also know theres 120 VAC between L1 and the Neutral.
Sooooooo given moist earth (which has a degree of conductivity),,,,,,,,,,, and/or concrete (also some degree of conductivity),,,,,,,, and perhaps some capacitance going on between a large flat metal surface and earth/concrete,,,,,,,,some voltmeters could sense a voltage potential.
However, if were looking at earth and concrete (high resistance) and some capacitive coupling and assuming theres NO DIRECT LOW IMPEDANCE CONNECTION to that bench top via a short somewhere, THERES ONLY LOW ENERGY AVAILABLE.
I bet you wouldnt stand barefoot on that concrete or outdoors and lay your hand on a hot L1 would you?????????????? NOOOOOOOO because the L1 is 120 volts higher then where the Neutral is tied to Mother earth via that 8 ft copper ground rod near the service entrance. Now if youre inside on a dry wood floor covered with carpet it wouldnt be as hazardous.
As a kid I used to gather fishing worms by attaching a hot 120 VAC L1 to a coat hanger stuck in the ground and we rigged a hot wire to a tin garbage can to keep dogs from turning it over lol they really screamed n yelled when they touched that can
John T
Sooooooo given moist earth (which has a degree of conductivity),,,,,,,,,,, and/or concrete (also some degree of conductivity),,,,,,,, and perhaps some capacitance going on between a large flat metal surface and earth/concrete,,,,,,,,some voltmeters could sense a voltage potential.
However, if were looking at earth and concrete (high resistance) and some capacitive coupling and assuming theres NO DIRECT LOW IMPEDANCE CONNECTION to that bench top via a short somewhere, THERES ONLY LOW ENERGY AVAILABLE.
I bet you wouldnt stand barefoot on that concrete or outdoors and lay your hand on a hot L1 would you?????????????? NOOOOOOOO because the L1 is 120 volts higher then where the Neutral is tied to Mother earth via that 8 ft copper ground rod near the service entrance. Now if youre inside on a dry wood floor covered with carpet it wouldnt be as hazardous.
As a kid I used to gather fishing worms by attaching a hot 120 VAC L1 to a coat hanger stuck in the ground and we rigged a hot wire to a tin garbage can to keep dogs from turning it over lol they really screamed n yelled when they touched that can
John T
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Yep, I bet a Simpson meter would be sitting on ZERO..
teddy52food
Well-known Member
So what does it mean when a dc meter flashes a negetive sign ahead of the readout when it is correctly hooked to the battery pack?
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Teddy it means your battery was discharged and charged up with the charger hooked wrong. I've seen this before or maybe if its a generator system maybe wasn't polarized? Hook a headlight to discharge it and charge the right way. chris
teddy52food
Well-known Member
This is on an unconventional motor being run on 9 volt transistor batteries.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
High frequency electrical noise/harmonics over loading the digital input.
Try that measurement with a Simpson 260.
Try that measurement with a Simpson 260.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
KEB and B&D are correct. Digital multimeters have a very high input impedance, which means you will read voltage between a hot wire and almost anything else, even things that aren't grounded. Which is why you must always be suspicious of any AC voltage measurement you make with a digital meter.
You can assume it's the meter... but I'd also be inclined to see if you get a shock from the table. I had a capacitor fail in my air compressor's motor a few years ago and I'd get a tingle off the air line... but only after the compressor had run for a while and the line got wet enough to conduct. I forget what voltage potential was there around the building but it was significant... Don't guess. Check it. Sometimes the meter IS correct.... and it only takes I think 1 miliamp to kill you.
Rod
Rod
Best I recall, its been wayyyyyy toooooooo longggggggg, like 50 milliamps through the old ticker can cause defibrillation which is why a GFCI trips at something like 5 milliamps. Still I agree and dont even want that 1 milliamp you spoke of artificial current around my old heart.
John T
John T
OP
OP
guido
Well-known Member
Hello,
I know that a digital meter will show voltage even if it is pointed in the air. What prompted me to check is that an open wire touched that metal plate. My luck it was L1. The GFI did not trip by the box circuit breaker did? I have an analog A/C meter, i'll check for voltage that way. My 260 is still not working, i sure miss that meter. There is no current available. What i did i used a 37W soldering iron, L 1 to one side and common to the bench vise. Volt meter went to zero, Take the iron off the circuit back to 110V.There is i'm sure, plenty of metal shavings and metal poweder all over the bench top.
Guido.
I know that a digital meter will show voltage even if it is pointed in the air. What prompted me to check is that an open wire touched that metal plate. My luck it was L1. The GFI did not trip by the box circuit breaker did? I have an analog A/C meter, i'll check for voltage that way. My 260 is still not working, i sure miss that meter. There is no current available. What i did i used a 37W soldering iron, L 1 to one side and common to the bench vise. Volt meter went to zero, Take the iron off the circuit back to 110V.There is i'm sure, plenty of metal shavings and metal poweder all over the bench top.
Guido.
teddy52food
Well-known Member
Well you finally guessed right! It(the energy machine) is putting more back into the battery than what it uses.
teddy52food
Well-known Member
When you said it was overloading the imput you are exactly right. This is what happens when Joe hooks it up to his Energy Machine. It (the machine) is putting more back into the batteries than what it uses.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Teddy
I really think you just a joker with this perpetual motion energy machine thing.
It's getting almost as funny as the Essex Tri Directional theme.
I really think you just a joker with this perpetual motion energy machine thing.
It's getting almost as funny as the Essex Tri Directional theme.
teddy52food
Well-known Member
Some day I will try to explain to you and others what is in a magnetic field & what & how a permanent magnet works. It is ovious you don't have a clue. E-mail me your address & I will send you a DVD free of charge.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Hey Teddy,
Does your DVD include a refresher course on Maxwell's Equations? Otherwise, I'm afraid the subject matter is going to be over my head, given that I almost flunked Electromagnetic Field Theory thirty-some years ago and and was never very good at solving partial differential equations.
Of course, Crackpot Joe never let lack of knowledge get in his way. Why should I?
Maxwells Equations
Does your DVD include a refresher course on Maxwell's Equations? Otherwise, I'm afraid the subject matter is going to be over my head, given that I almost flunked Electromagnetic Field Theory thirty-some years ago and and was never very good at solving partial differential equations.
Of course, Crackpot Joe never let lack of knowledge get in his way. Why should I?
Maxwells Equations
Bill in IL
Well-known Member
Its due to the 10 meg ohm input impedance on that digital meter. Your simpson 260 has a much lower input impedance therefore requires more current flow through the meter to cause a meter deflection. Both meters have their place in the toolbox.
Mark, you remind me of myself, when I studied Maxwells Equations and Electronics of Solids which involved Quantum Mechanics back at Purdue EE in the late sixties, it drove me to drink it was sooooooooooooooooo complicated. I passed but just barely. I do recall how Perpetual Motion defied a couple of the Laws of Thermodynamics not to mention Physics and unless they have changed those laws as an engineer I just cant swallow it down and YES I do understand electromagnetic or permanent magnetic fields and all that stuff.
Take care now,
John T
Take care now,
John T
teddy52food
Well-known Member
Wasn't it Maxwell that said what is in a magnetic field is matter in motion?
teddy52food
Well-known Member
The DVD shows a large machine( 7500#) running on 9 volt transistor batteries connected in series. High voltage, milliamps of current. The meter is flashing negetive. The battery makers also state that their batteries don't have enough energy to run that machine continously without going dead. The energy is coming from the machine, not the batteries. The machine consists of a large copper coil and a rotating permanent magnet Coupled to the batteries through a commutator which is a rotating electrical switch. Maybe tomorrow I will start a new post. I am willing to teach. Are you willing to learn?????
teddy52food
Well-known Member
I can see why you would have trouble understanding all that. Magnets and magnetic fields are basically very simple. More tomorrow.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Lets disconnect the batteries from Joe's magic motor and watch it run even faster because it now doesn't have to charge the batteries.
Lets meet you half way and just put a capacitor in place of the battery once the motor is running. According to the Joe's magic the motor will continue running.
How is it you have more to believe a permanent magnet is a source of energy?
Magnetism is no more a source of energy than gravity is.
I'm forwarding this stuff to my co-workers and engineers at work. They thankyou for the snorts, giggles and laughter.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Anyone can make a movie of something that's not real.
Am I willing to learn? There's two ways to go with this. Either:
1. The Laws of Thermodynamics, which I've used for the past thirty years to make a living, are bunk.
or
2. Joe Newman is a crackpot.
I prefer to go with #1.
Am I willing to learn? There's two ways to go with this. Either:
1. The Laws of Thermodynamics, which I've used for the past thirty years to make a living, are bunk.
or
2. Joe Newman is a crackpot.
I prefer to go with #1.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
The meter is seeing high frequency AC noise super imposed on the DC line. Of course the polarity indication on a digital meter is going to flicker - to +.
Try measuring with a Simpson 260.
b.t.w. putting AC to a battery doesn't charge it.
Try measuring with a Simpson 260.
b.t.w. putting AC to a battery doesn't charge it.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Er, Number 2, I should have said.
teddy52food
Well-known Member
Joe is working on running it on its own power without batteries. The problem is he may end up with an uncontroled run-away. The machine will self distruct if some control isn't used.
OP
OP
guido
Well-known Member
Hello,
I Checked the voltage with my old analog a/c d/c,
generator meter. A/C voltgae is 2.7 volts.
I checked the voltage wiht my Amprobe 55v A/C.
No current or shock. Like i posted a 37W soldering iron brings the voltage to 0.
Here are the 2 pictures of the meters.
Impedance on each meter giving a different
voltage reading.
Guido.
I Checked the voltage with my old analog a/c d/c,
generator meter. A/C voltgae is 2.7 volts.
I checked the voltage wiht my Amprobe 55v A/C.
No current or shock. Like i posted a 37W soldering iron brings the voltage to 0.
Here are the 2 pictures of the meters.
Impedance on each meter giving a different
voltage reading.
Guido.
teddy52food
Well-known Member
Well I will have to agree with you on that he may be a crackpot, because he has done what others like you say is impossible. He also wrote the book explaining how & why it works. Have you read it?? He has 35-40 important people that have done their own testing that agree the output is greater than the externally imputted energy. Are you calling them all lyers?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Some are lyers, some are duped with junk scince and some want to see free power. So much so they see it even if it isn't there.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
I'll purchase tickets just to watch and be entertained.
Worry not. You will never see that motor run without power being APPLIED to it. Pull the batteries and it will coast to halt. Simple.
Worry not. You will never see that motor run without power being APPLIED to it. Pull the batteries and it will coast to halt. Simple.
teddy52food
Well-known Member
If a permanent magnet doesn't have a power of its own, why is it that the heater motors years ago had wound field coils & were fused at 25-30 amps. The new motors use permanent magnets and are fused at 10-15 amps. If anything the blower is bigger not smaller. Also a starter with permanent magnets turns over the same engine at the same speed on half the wattage as one with wound coils. The man in the local auto- electric shop is in his 70's & has worked on starters, generators mags & alternators all his life & agrees with me that a permanent magnet has a power of its own. If a magnet doesn't have any power why doesn't the motor or starter run without it?
Show a little respect when you speak of the ETD.
I have one hid in my barn. Just been waiting for that perpetual motion thingy to be completed. Had a horse one time kind of like that. You put one bucket of oats in the front end and two buckets full came out the other end. When I read about the perpetual motion thing I was reminded of what came out the back end of the horse.
I have one hid in my barn. Just been waiting for that perpetual motion thingy to be completed. Had a horse one time kind of like that. You put one bucket of oats in the front end and two buckets full came out the other end. When I read about the perpetual motion thing I was reminded of what came out the back end of the horse.
teddy52food
Well-known Member
Am I getting this right??? Sounds like you are starting to admit that it runs! You catch on fast!
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Several different types of GFI. Some are local contact equipped systems that trip locally, others dead short the circuit and trip a breaker, others are in the breaker box and trip the breaker. I agree, the bench is just big enough to act as a micro ground. If it were mine, I would ground the bench to the system ground, and be done with it. The white (neutral must be separated (as John T points out) and never connected to green at a local outlet or device.
To Teddy. Permanent magnets have magnetic polarity (which is like a garden rake, it can rake electrons along a wire, but you have to move the rake with an external force) this force is not power at all, it is no different than the field poles made from electrical windings other that no electricity is needed to make them magnetized. Thus higher efficiency can be gained, but no where near more than is put in mechanically, or electrically. We do not believe you are hearing our plea to learn the principles of QED.
Jim
To Teddy. Permanent magnets have magnetic polarity (which is like a garden rake, it can rake electrons along a wire, but you have to move the rake with an external force) this force is not power at all, it is no different than the field poles made from electrical windings other that no electricity is needed to make them magnetized. Thus higher efficiency can be gained, but no where near more than is put in mechanically, or electrically. We do not believe you are hearing our plea to learn the principles of QED.
Jim
teddy52food
Well-known Member
Jim; thanks for the response, but you are wrong. I will explain it in a day or two.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
High density rare earth and ceramic PM's were at one time unavailable or exceedingly expensive.
Motor manufactures had to do the next best thing and use electricity to make non magnetic materials into magnets. Have you ever come across magnetic copper wire that wasn't energized?
Your explanation of PM motors is as logical as saying." It rains a lot in Britan because so many people have forced precipitation to appear by purchasing umbrellas which drain moisture from clouds".
Also if you knew anything about electric motors. Some components have to swap polarity. Can't do that with a PM.
Have to use electricity and reverse the current direction via AC current or using a commutator.
How do you try to explain energy, motors etc. When you lack the fundamental knowledge yourself?
Motor manufactures had to do the next best thing and use electricity to make non magnetic materials into magnets. Have you ever come across magnetic copper wire that wasn't energized?
Your explanation of PM motors is as logical as saying." It rains a lot in Britan because so many people have forced precipitation to appear by purchasing umbrellas which drain moisture from clouds".
Also if you knew anything about electric motors. Some components have to swap polarity. Can't do that with a PM.
Have to use electricity and reverse the current direction via AC current or using a commutator.
How do you try to explain energy, motors etc. When you lack the fundamental knowledge yourself?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
With a machine that size. It would be simple enough for magic Joe to hide some gell cell or agm batteries built into the machine. To make the impossible appear possible.
As for movies. I just watched some dude in his basement put together a fushion powered armoured battle suit. Has to be true, I seen it.
As for movies. I just watched some dude in his basement put together a fushion powered armoured battle suit. Has to be true, I seen it.
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