Wind Chill on machinery

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
Ok so wind chill means it FEELS colder than it is because the wind pulls the heat away from your body. Right?

But machinery isn't supposed to feel colder because the temp outside is the same windy or not. Right?

I understand theres a difference on a tractor plugged in outside vs. inside because the wind will pull more heat away from the engine if its sitting outside, but as far as the rest of the tractor it doesn't matter, cold is cold. Right?

How about diesel fuel in a tractor?
Will a tractor sitting outside more likely gel if the tractors fuel tank and filters are exposed to the wind vs a tractor setting inside? Same temp in or out so does it make a difference or does it just seem that way to us because we feel wind chill ourselves?
 
Wind chill only affects living things. Anything that has nerve endings will "feel" the cold as the air removes the body heat and makes you feel cold, faster.

Non living things only cool down to actual temps. If you have a pan of hot water outside in the wind, it will cool to actual outdoor temp faster, but will not be below actual.

Fuel is the same way, it will cool faster with the wind, but it only cools to the surrounding temp. You can remove heat with cold air cooling the surface, but you can't make it colder than the air blowing around it.
 

The only difference the wind makes to non--living things is that the wind WILL cause the object to cool to ambient temp SOONER

The whole idea of windchill is based on the fact that "we" sweat, and the wind helps cool that much faster.
 
Wind chill comes from evaporating moisture from our skins. Machinery is dry and so wind just cools it to the air temperature more quickly but not below the air temperature.

Gerald J.
 
Wind chill affects how quickly warm things cool down. So if you warm up your tractor, then park it outside, it will cool down to ambient temperature faster if the wind is blowing. Or if you have a block heater it will take longer to warm up in the wind. But for all practical purposes, the wind chill doesn't affect a tractor because it's going to cool down very quickly regardless of how much wind there is.
 
If the implement has been running and its mass is higher temperature then the ambient temperature, if air is blowing past it the heat will be transferred away from it at a faster pace. Once its just sitting there (NOT running not producing heat) at ambient temp the wind will have no further affect, its mass will reach and remain at ambient temperature REGARDLESS.

When we step out of the shower covered with water we "feel" cold because in the process of the conversion of that water to water vapor heat is carried away from our bodies i.e. we feel coldddddddddddd, the "heat of vaporization"

When my kids were young in science class and proclaimed its COLD, I always lectured them THERES NO SUCH THING AS COLD its only the absence of heat. Look in the sky and theres the heat producing sun but NOT any ice cubes producing COLD and in the winter months we receive less heat due to the suns different orientation.

Tell you this much THERES NOT MUCH HEAT IN INDIANA TODAY, some would say its even COLD lol

Thermo was my weakest subject in EE school, I do rememebr "Heat lost = heat gained" and pv = nRT which sort of explains how refrigeration works

God Bless America and Merry Christmas, if any of that offends you, get over it.

John T
 
My experience at twenty below has always been that I am not perspiring unless exercising vigorously, and exposed skin does no perspire unless above say 40 degrees yet I would still get wind chill and ultimately frostbite.
 
Wind chill affects rate of temperature change on any object, living, or made of steel.

Yes in some cases high wind, i.e. "wind chill" can make fuel gel. That because many types of diesel powered equipment, for extreme cold weather use, rely on warmed fuel recirculated back to the tank, from the injection pump that is engine mounted and warmed. This "full circle" system helps keep all the fuel above the gel or cloud point. Some systems are better then others, depending on the rate of fuel return.

So, to some degree, wind can hit fuel lines and cause that warmed fuel being sent back to the tank, to cool faster.

This happens much more in big over-the-road trucks, but to a degree, can occur in some farm tractors.

It has no effect on a machine that is parked and not running, unless you just had it in a heated shop and then parked outside. Then it will cool faster and wind chill will affect it.
 
I cant say whether or not you will as you say "get wind chill" but if air is blowing past your body Id think it would extract heat away from you (the heat your body generates from burning food calories) at a faster rate then if there was no wind???????

Maybe theres a difference in what the weather dudes and info babes on TV call "wind chill" versus the general physics of heat transfer...which is more efficient if air is blowing past you versus none at all... A radiator transfers more heat if air flows through it right???

I hope my Friend Gerald who still practices engineering can explian it better then myself who has long been retired from its practice

John T
 
It seems to me that the tractor, as others say, will get down to ambient temperature faster in the wind, but if we got down to ambient temperature we'd be dead and then it wouldn't matter so much to us if the tractor was cold or not.
Zach
 
John, I guess I wasn't clear, (which is nothing new)I agree that wind, as well as motion, like skiing at 40 MPH, will cause the heat to be drawn away from any surface more quickly. What I was referring to was the reference to heat loss due to evaporation of moisture that Gerald was referring to. That is a process entirely different from wind chill. If you are perspiring while exposed to very low temperature and wind you will loose heat that much faster, but it will be due to two different physical processes. Evaporation of a liquid consumes heat and convection increases the rate of heat loss. I am just saying that both taking place on the skin at the same would be highly unlikely.
 
Anyone that believes that wind chill doesn't effect tractors should remove the fans from said tractors. Logically speaking, if wind speed didn't matter, why are we wasting all that fuel and power turning a big stupid fan? Let us know how that works out for ya...

Rod
 
This might be the first time I take issue with something you say Rod, but here goes. The fan is there to increase the rate of heat loss/gain (depends on perspective) just like wind chill is related to "rate of heat loss" not actual temperature. Does it have an effect, yes if engine can't make heat as fast as it can be taken away temp will not rise and optimum operating conditions not met. So you are correct, but it still remains that a vehicle set over night is starting at ambient temp, not an artificial temperature that has been generated to guage relative comfort levels.

Did not look at John T's link, but we as humans don't really "feel" temperature. We feel rate of heat loss/gain, thus the concept of "wind chill" also the opposite measure of "heat index"

FWIW, wind chill does not take into account any evaporative processes since presumably we are not going to be perspiring when it is cold, but the heat index is almost entirely driven by evaporative cooling (or lack of it actually since as humidity rises it is harder to put more moisture into the air so no evaporative cooling)

My $0.02,

It is ~30 degF here is South Central PA and wind is blowing so not as bad as some of you, but feels cold to me today.
 
All that power turning a fan? Don"t think it"s all that much.

And wind chill and air volume are two different things. With no air moving through the radiator it won"t cool. That"s not wind chill.
 
(quoted from post at 10:49:21 12/10/09) All that power turning a fan? Don"t think it"s all that much.

And wind chill and air volume are two different things. With no air moving through the radiator it won"t cool. That"s not wind chill.

Thank you Indianared! didn't think anyone was ever going to get there!

Wind vs wind chill. Words being used loosely throughout this thread.
 
Agreed about the part of air volume vs "wind chill", but, fans can absorb more hp that you might realize. Not huge amounts, but enough. That's the reasoning behind clutch fans. Also the reasoning behind race cars not using a fan in some instances. (ie drag racers...)
 
I have been driving down the highway at 60 MPH in a big truck and the fuel gelled up on me.Set for a while and go again until it would gell again.Running from the south where they dont use much if any additive to the north in the winter can cause problems.If you run around in the north enough to buy northern fuel it usually has enough additive in it to not gell.I was lucky enough to be close to a truckstop every time it gelled and got some additive or number 1 fuel.There is a lot of difference in how it affects the fuel when the wind is hitting it or not.Sometimes you will be driving along and go over a hill and things will be a lot worse on the other side.Wind blowing out of the north and you going north on a cold day might gell your fuel,on the same day go west or east or south and not gell.The only thing is the difference of the wind getting a fitting a little bit colder and causing all kinds of problems.
 
Seems some of this is getting way off point from the original question.

You expressed concern about words being used correctly. How about science being used correctly?

That being said, a radiator certainly can still help cool even if air is NOT flowing through it. You can block all air flow through a radiator to a point that air is reflected off of it, and heat exhange will still occur. Cold air blowing on fuel lines that is reflected off can have the same effect of heat exchange.
 
(reply to post at 06:11:38 12/10/09)
I think I understand what chill factor means but have always wondered why----Lets say the outside temp. is 25 degrees and your vehicle is outside. You use the windshield washer to clean the windshield before driving away. It works as it should using washer fluid that has a low freezing point.
Now, use the windshield washer while driving and the windshield is instantly glazed over with ice!
I did this once but will not do it again.
 
Wind chill is related only to a human's perception of comfort. As John T said, it factors in the evaporative effect of more air moving across exposed skin.

As it relates to machinery (I know a lot of us love our tractors but, honest, they don't feel a thing!), wind can still have an effect.

First and foremost, wind will not in fact chill anything to a point colder than the true temperature of the air. So take a morning where the temp is 10* and the wind chill is -15*. It may chill your bones, but the unheated motor will be no colder than 10*.

Using a block heater . . . In calm air, say it heats the coolant and motor to 85*. Because the wind will strip away the little envelope of warmer air around the, making for a chilling effect, you may find on that same 10* morning, that the heater can only maintain things at 40*.

Running (and this gets to what the truckers describe), it depends on the wind speed, location of tanks and fuel lines . . . If you can get a diesel tractor (farm tractor) running, the warmed bypass fuel in the return line will help warm the fuel in the tank to forestall gelling. And a farm tractor generally moves slow enough that you're not generating a lot of extra wind to strip heat off the fuel heater, or off the warm return lines or the tank, or off the tank(s), and you'll stay running. If the real temperature is low enough to gel your fuel, high winds will have the same effect as running a road tractor at road speeds equivalent to the winds speed, and you run the chance of stripping enough heat away at a higher rate than in calm air. Worst case is that you strip away more heat than than the fuel heater and motor can feed back through the return line to the tank, and your fuel will gel.
 
Like Scott said, "Wind chill is related ONLY to a HUMAN'S PERCEPTION of comfort."

Lots of types of cooling; radiation, convection, forced air, conduction, ....but 'wind chill' isn't among them.
 
Wind chill, by some people's reasoning... would suggest that it's dealing with one's perception of reality versus actual reality. Ie. It feels colder than it actually is.
Wether I'm right or wrong according to the experts makes no difference to me. Wind will increase the rate of heat loss from an engine the same as it does from me. I agree that the engine will never get colder than the ambient temperature... but last I heard, neither will a dead body...
It seems to me that if we're dealing with a person's perception of how cold it is, we're probably not dealing much with fact. It may be that the wind makes it feel colder, but the heat it removes is what makes things difficult.

Just in case anyone is wondering, I do live in one of the windiest, most miserable places known to man. An average 40 degree day anwhere else can feel like 20 degrees here with an average wind blowing and our normal humidity. Tractors don't start any easier on those mornings than I do...

Rod
 
Power? It might not be much on a car. Probably 1 horse or so. Get into tractors I think you'll find most small ones want closer 5 horse. Get up around 100 HP models and the fan will want more like 10 horse.
Get into a truck with a 400 Cummins and wait till the fan kicks on pulling a hill.... You'll drop a gear. I'd dare say 30-40 hp would not be unreasonable on some of those fans.
I often listen to the fans kick in on feed trucks sitting here in the yard blowing feed. At 1500 rpm and ht efan kicking in they probably drop to 1200 for a couple seconds until the fan gets up to speed.
They take a considerable amount of power.

Rod
 
Probably should not have said I take issue with your statement since I make pretty much the same point somewhere in my post. Should have gone back and read what I wrote before posting. I would not trade you weather for love or money. We call our little piece of heaven here Crosswinds Farm since we always have a breeze/wind/gale blowing here. Don't mind most of the summer, but this time of year it gets old fast. Can't see myself staying in your locale very long. Talk about personal experience with wind chill.

Kirk
 
You are using pure sophistry. The guy that started this post gave ample context about "wind chill" and how he wanted to know how it applies to a tractor and/or diesel fuel.

"Wind chill" as defined certainly has a analogous effect on a tractor as it does on a human being.

"Will a tractor sitting outside more likely gel if the tractors fuel tank and filters are exposed to the wind vs a tractor setting inside "
 
Ok why did my carburetor freeze when the temp was 40deg. did it every morning going to work at speeds above 45 MPH
---------------------------------------------------
Here is what your US Government says.
----------------------
The air temperature has to be BELOW freezing in order for frostbite to develop on exposed skin. Wind chill can bring the temperature to below freezing for humans and animals.
---------------
You figure that one out.
Walt
 
Yep. We humans are equipped for evaporative cooling (you left that one out, but I figure it was included in the . . .) and that's what the windchill factor takes in.

To jdemaris's point, a radiator by design will indeed carry heat away from the source even in still air, but only up to a point. I'm not enough of an engineer to say whether it is strictly convection or conduction or some combination of the two, but the idea is that the fine fins serve to increase the area for the heat exchange between the source and the coolant (ambient air being the coolant). Perhaps others have had the experience, but I had a car a few years back that began to overheat on upgrades, even in mild weather. The problem was that the fins had corroded so from road salt that there was little left except the tubing in the core to transfer the heat away. Lesson? The tubes themselves are not sufficient -- they need the added surface area of the fins for the radiator to work.

The same principle is at work in lots of places. Theres a reason for fans pulling or driving air over radiators in things like refrigerators and air conditioners. A radiator in still air, a staionary app like an air conditioner, or an idling vehicle, will build an envelope of heat around the cooling surfaces, eventually rising to near the temperature of the internal coolant, and no longer have a cooling effect. Some of it can be attributed to marginal design. But the concept is evident in a vehicle with an electric fan. It will idle quietly up to a point. But if the still air allows that envelope of warm air in the fins of the radiator to reach the point where they stop cooling, an aquastat will detect the rising temp of the internal coolant, and you'll eventually hear the howl of the fan as it kicks in to draw more air to restore the cooling effect. Agree or disagree, there is no denying the effectiveness of that design or, on the flip side, the effectiveness of radiator shutters or curtains on the front of a big rig (or a tractor) to inhibit the flow of air to maintain a higher operating temperature.

In the extreme on both ends, is the heat pump concept for heating and cooling homes. There are upper and lower extremes of temp at which they are efficient. As design has improved those temps are getting more and more extreme, but there is a physical limit beyond which the exchange of heat is not sufficient to provide the heating or cooling desired.
 
Carburetor icing can occur even in warm weather. As long as we're on the topic, carburetor icing is basically a wind chill in reverse. Just as wind chill is based on the fact that our bodies are cooled by evaporating sweat (even in small unnoticeable amounts), the evaporation of fuel in the carburetor cools it from the inside and, when running hard and evaporating a lot of fuel in a hurry, that evaporation can be enough to chill the carb to where, if there is enough humidity on the outside, form water and ice.

As far as the government . . . they worded it poorly (Are we surprised?). It goes back to the other point. Windchill is not actually colder, it only feels that way. Frostbite is basically the water in your bodily cells freezing. Wind chill can lower the temperature of your body by evaporating heat more quickly, but 40* air in a howling gale can only lower the temperature of ANYTHING to 40*, not to freezing or below, so no frostbite. Cold enough to be painful, yes, but not frostbite.
 
To your, literally, bottom line question . . . and keeping in mind, more likely . . . No.

More quickly, yes, if the true temperature of the air is low enough to gel the fuel in calm air in the first place.

Say you have a fuel mixture that gels at 10*F. You can leave that tractor sit out in 15* weather in a howling NW wind. It will not cool below 15*.

Now say you had it out and running in that weather. You might, in the absence of wind and with not a lot of fuel in the tank, expect heated fuel from the return line to heat that fuel eventually to 25*.

Running it in a wind at 15* will strip away the heat faster, so you may not get to my hypothetical 25*, but it won't drop below the ambient 15*.

Park the tractor and shut it off, taking away the heat source of the return line, and I agree that the fuel in the system will cool faster, but it still won't drop below the ambient 15*.

Is that fair?
 
You are using pure sophistry. The guy that started this post gave ample context about "wind chill" and how he wanted to know how it applies to a tractor and/or diesel fuel.

"Wind chill" as defined certainly has a analogous effect on a tractor as it does on a human being.
>>
WELL, I have no idea how any 'deceptive reasoning' applies, but anyway, he asked, "Will a tractor sitting outside more likely gel if the tractors fuel tank and filters are exposed to the wind vs a tractor setting inside?" NO.
Make alterations to the situation & things change, but with situation he described in his question, 'just sitting there', then wind has no bearing. We could add details such as starting temp, how long are we going to let it sit, etc, etc., and come up with many scenarios and many different results, but he just asked about 'sitting'.
 
Sounds similar to the icing which was one of the causes of the sinking of the Thresher (SSN 593) in 1963.........
 
I think wind chill has a great effect on equipment ,as I manage 2 car washes and belive me I can operate as low as 15* but let a 15-20 mph wind come up and it's all over .
 
With the truck stopped there was less airflow to carry heat from the engine compartment.The filters located adjacent to the hot engine now were able to warm up.
 
That isn't wind chill in any way shape or form. All the fan does is more X lbs of cool air over Y square ft of hot surface to move Z btu's. So the air can absorb heat energy.
 
Try the east coast of Lake Huron. Bruce County the land of horizontal snow storms. They put wind turbines up by the hundred around here for a reason.
 
Does Wind Chill Affect Machines?
Article #529

by Larry Gedney



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This article is provided as a public service by the Geophysical Institute, University of Alaska Fairbanks, in cooperation with the UAF research community. Larry Gedney is a seismologist at the Institute.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It is well known that the wind-chill factor can lower the effective temperature experienced by human beings by many degrees, depending on the velocity of the wind. The debatable question often arises, "Does it also affect machines?"

Many of us have had the experience of sitting in a car at a stoplight with clear windows, only to have them fog up again when the car starts moving. More often than not, this is a result of snow that was on the hood being sucked through the car's heater system; but there is another factor involved as well, and that is wind chill.

If we were to take an engine block and install it on mounts in the middle of a field for the winter, it would make no difference in the temperature of that engine block if the wind blew or not. It would remain at the ambient temperature of the air surrounding it, whether or not the air was moving. However, if we were to start up that engine and let it warm up, there would be a great deal of difference in the block temperature depending on whether or not the wind was blowing.

Any object that creates its own internal heat will find that heat is removed from it faster if the air around it is moving. It is simply a matter of heat transfer--the "conveyor belt" of moving air (convection) will snatch the heat away much faster than if it were still.

So the answer to the question is yes. Wind chill does affect machines, but only if they are at a temperature above that of the surrounding air.
 
On an island at 250' elv on a barren hill in the middle of the Bras D'Or lakes we get much the same effect...
Thankfully we see very few flies in the summer. That's about the only blessing.

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 22:52:31 12/10/09) Does Wind Chill Affect Machines?
Article #529

by Larry Gedney



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This article is provided as a public service by the Geophysical Institute, University of Alaska Fairbanks, in cooperation with the UAF research community. Larry Gedney is a seismologist at the Institute.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It is well known that the wind-chill factor can lower the effective temperature experienced by human beings by many degrees, depending on the velocity of the wind. The debatable question often arises, "Does it also affect machines?"

Many of us have had the experience of sitting in a car at a stoplight with clear windows, only to have them fog up again when the car starts moving. More often than not, this is a result of snow that was on the hood being sucked through the car's heater system; but there is another factor involved as well, and that is wind chill.

If we were to take an engine block and install it on mounts in the middle of a field for the winter, it would make no difference in the temperature of that engine block if the wind blew or not. It would remain at the ambient temperature of the air surrounding it, whether or not the air was moving. However, if we were to start up that engine and let it warm up, there would be a great deal of difference in the block temperature depending on whether or not the wind was blowing.

Any object that creates its own internal heat will find that heat is removed from it faster if the air around it is moving. It is simply a matter of heat transfer--the "conveyor belt" of moving air (convection) will snatch the heat away much faster than if it were still.

So the answer to the question is yes. Wind chill does affect machines, but only if they are at a temperature above that of the surrounding air.

You were doing really, really, really good until you said "wind chill", then it went in the crapper. Sorry. I wish you had just said "wind" or "wind velocity". Once you interject the "chill" word, you transitioned into the human perception of cold.... an immeasurable perception of the human mind, which there has been an attempt only to quantify by sampling the feelings of a group (sample) of humans. Yes, there is a formula, but it as not derived scientifically, but by testing the 'feelings' of a number of sample subjects.
 
wind chill is a measurable factor of cool air movement on human skin. It is not a factor on metals, but it may affect a running engine- without a thermostat. But it would not be called wind chill factor.
 
Actually carburetor icing is most likely to occur at temperatures ABOVE freezing. Once the air is down below about 20F, there's no longer enough water in it for icing to be a problem. But when the ambient temperature is above freezing and and the dew point is high, carburetor ice becomes a problem because of the temperature drop in the carburetor venturi.

Pilots are taught to apply carburetor heat when reducing power at ANY temperature, and to be particularly watchful for carb ice between 32 and 60 degrees F.
 
Wind chill is a calculated number. Just because it's generally used to quantify the perception of temperature by humans doesn't mean it doesn't affect inanimate objects. You don't have to send a person outside to calculate wind chill, you only need to know wind velocity and air temperature.
 
(quoted from post at 12:16:34 12/11/09) Wind chill is a calculated number. Just because it's generally used to quantify the perception of temperature by humans doesn't mean it doesn't affect inanimate objects. You don't have to send a person outside to calculate wind chill, you only need to know wind velocity and air temperature.

........a bare face in the wind............

In November 2001 the National Weather Service implemented the new wind chill index, used by the U.S. and Canadian weather services, which is determined by iterating a model of skin temperature under various wind speeds and temperatures. The model used standard engineering correlations of wind speed and heat transfer rate. Heat transfer was calculated for a bare face in wind, facing the wind, while walking into it at 1.4 metres per second (3.1 mph). The model corrects the officially measured wind speed to the wind speed at face height, assuming the person is in an open field.[7] The results of this model may be approximated, to within one degree, from the following formula:

T_{wc}=13.12 + 0.6215 T_a-11.37 V^{0.16} + 0.3965 T_a V^{0.16},!

where T_{wc},! is the wind chill index based on the Celsius scale, T_a,! is the air temperature in °C, and V,! is the air speed in km/h measured at 10 metres (33 ft), standard anemometer height).[8]

The equivalent formula in US customary units is:

T_{wc}=35.74+0.6215 T_a-35.75 V^{0.16}+0.4275 T_a V^{0.16},!

where T_{wc},! and T_a,! are measured in °F, and V,! in mph.

Windchill Temperature is only defined for temperatures at or below 10 °C (50 °F) and wind speeds above 4.8 kilometres per hour (3.0 mph).[9]

As the air temperature falls, the chilling effect of any wind that is present increases. For example, a 16 km/h (9.9 mph) wind will lower the apparent temperature by a wider margin at an air temperature of −20 °C (−4.0 °F), than a wind of the same speed would if the air temperature were −10 °C (14.0 °F).

Celsius Wind Chill Chart w/Frostbite information


Comparison of old and new values of Wind Chill at −15 °C (5.0 °F)

The method for calculating wind chill has been controversial because experts[who?] disagree on whether it should be based on whole body cooling either while naked or while wearing appropriate clothing, or if it should be based instead on local cooling of the most exposed skin, such as the face. The internal thermal resistance is also a point of contention. It varies widely from person to person. Had the average value for the subjects been used, calculated WCET's would be a few degrees more severe.

The 2001 WCET is a steady state calculation (except for the time to frostbite estimates[10]) There are significant time-dependent aspects to wind chill because cooling is most rapid at the start of any exposure, when the skin is still warm.

The exposure to wind depends on the surroundings and wind speeds can vary widely depending on exposure and obstructions to wind flow.
 
The wind could moderate the heat that produced by machinery. It radiates the machine's outside part of its body.
 

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