Real estate legal advice, flood zoning question, long

Okay, here goes. In 86 we had a "100 year flood" in MI. In 93 I built a new house on my dad's old home place. Like many small twps of that time I went to township office and got bldg permit and built new house with full basement. I should also mention, I built new pole barn one year earlier. During construction in 93 I heard rumors that no new permits were to be issued and that a state DNR (dept natural resources) official challenged the supervisor and he told them it was "his township and he was in charge". What I didn't know was that I was in the "100 yr flood plain". Fast forward about five years. The neighbor around the corner adds on to his farmhouse and has to apply to DNR for permit. The official tells him, "you can add on with a crawl space but don't you dare put in a basement like so and so, (uses my name)! "If I wanted to I could make him fill in his basement. No one in this flood plain was supposed to get a permit". Like many small townships of the time we had few building ordinances in 93, heck we were lucky to get an inspection. Only a general inspec was required and I never even got an occupancy permit when finished (we didn't have an inpector at the time). Now its 2010 and I would like to add on a 3 season room, but I'm scared to ask for a permit. I'm afraid they'll tell me to fill in my basement. (They acually did make another man fill in his basement in the same flood plain, although he was warned during construction). I honestly did not know about the flood plain when building. What do you guys think?

They're obviously waiting for a chance to waylay you. Don't even think about doin it. Build a trailer with a room on it like you want & put it beside your house. Use a door that seals like truck docking seals so you can move the trailer any time. You will need no permit to build the trailer.

What do I think? I think that DNR official has a bad case of "Little Man Syndrom"and would like nothing more than show you who is boss. If the addition is important enough to weather a law suit(which I believe you could win)I suggest you ask a title company lawer. I have found those lawers are A.Reasonable B.More knowledgable than the typical lawer C.Good advice but very few go to court except on thier insurance titles. I'm kinda looking at the worst case senerio. If you don't plan another basement,the DNR may grant the permit no question asked. Good luck with it

What city/township is this, county?

I remember the 86 flood, the lake levels rose up a lot and I sandbagged for neighbors and got paid 4 dollars and hour in most cases. I was a senior in HS then.

I would go for the permit and see what happens, the worst that happens is it turns into a brawl and you give them the finger and so on. Dont let pee-on officials get to you, they are weasels in most cases.

Spend a few bucks on a lawyer.
Your building were all built 100% legal at the time with all paper work correctly applied for back then.
Your buildings now should be a "legal non-conforming" status.And can't be retroactively made to conform to new laws.

Where are you located? In Ohio if you build in a flood plain your lender will require flood insurance. Check with Fema, they control and have maps of flood plains. They will show where the flood zone is on your land, if you don"t build in that area you are not in the flood plain.
Bill

I'm in Mich. And I should have mentioned it is a FEMA flood zone and I'm in it on the maps. And about ten years into my mortgage I got a home equity line of credit which required flood insurance. When I went to get it, I asked my agent why I didn't need it on my original mortgage. He said someone at the bank screwed up and I should have had it all along. He told me to keep my mouth shut and hope they didn't notice and pay house off. Which I did. The down side being if I got flooded i would not have been insured, of course. I am afraid of the gov't when only a mere 5 miles away they made someone fill their basement in. When another neighbor built across the section about ten years ago, they took him out in his field and said "see the land? (which is the same grade as the road) "Thats your basement floor. You have to build UP from here." There are mandatory rules about how and how high. Anther neighbor put in a modular. His crawl space had to have 12 inch tile drains through the walls to allow floods in and out and his yard is basically a dry "moat" to direct future floods. So, they do have considerable power to tell you how and where. After all this is FEMA, they're here to help

The little man syndrome does sounds like a real problem. It's getting more and more prevalent with government employees.
If you have a land surveyor or civil engineer close by, have them check your elevations. Find out if you are actually in the flood zone. Many times the map is only a rough estimate of the flood plain and the property can often be removed using a Letter of Map Amendment (LOMA) assuming there was a mapping error. Good luck.

since your home was built legal you can improve it!the elevation of your home may be above the 100 yr base flood elevation a registered land surveyor will check elevations as required by dnr for improvements and any new construction the bottom floor of a dwelling has to be 2ft above the flood elevation which you could very well at your location flood maps are general info your elevation will be specific detail to your location flood plain is better location than a FLOODWAY OR FLOODWAY FRINGE! my advise to you is get your elevations shot before going for permit so you'll know and have proof of your elevation compare to the flood maps I'm a building inspector and flood administrator in indiana so I deal with this from time to time but for your sake dont start without permit will cause problems for ya! sent my email if ya need help

I understand your reason to not get your occupancy inspection-BUT-they might be able to use that against you in this instance. I sure hope not, but they might not consider it legal without it. Greg

It's quite possible that there was no flood plain map when you built your house, or that the map has been updated since then. Be aware that if you refinance your house to pay for the addition, the lender is likely to require flood insurance.

Hi redtom... 2X4 has a point. A couple years ago a home owner added a deck to his house by building a "pontoon" boat and parking it VERY close to his house. He built it just like the deck that he wanted. They left him alone even though it was in plain sight for everyone to see and of course everyone knew what he had done. ag

Here in Sioux Falls, SD, they recently revised the flood plain. Extended it by quite a bit. Homeowners were told to get flood insurance.

We all know a majority of government workers are indeed helpless thumb suckers without their title.

You are still up against the wall, but I have found that going over little blow hards head is about the only way to handle them.

Elected officials can have a (step on them) effect in most cases. The light weight is like having a older bigger brother that you may be able to take down, but the fear is to great from years ago. No snot nose wants trouble from above -- end of sentence.

My dad always said if you don't suceeede the first time, try again and again. If that all fails apply for a government job. Surprising how often that has been true in my life time.

I'm a old man, and so far I lived to see three hundred year floods, and one five hundred.

What you are paying every year for flood insurance you could raise your house with cement blocks with a ten year pay back. Only you know the situation, and workability.

I'm right on top of a hill and my fuel barrel floated right up against the floor joists that September. I'd want to know too what county and township this is in. I'm on township board of review,but I try to stay as far away from this whole zoning and permit process as I can. Usually,taking the supervisor for a little walk and talk where there are no witnesses works for me.

Iowa,

As I understand the original post, his concern isn't whether or not he can get a decision reversed, but whether or not he'll open a can of worms by applying for a new building permit. He already has his basement, and it sounds like DNR has effectively grandfathered it in. Going over somebody's head might just cause DNR to dig in and insist he follow the rules. Sometimes it's better to let sleeping dogs lie.

redtom,
I'm in Michigan as well. I would agree with others that you first need to spend a few bucks with a local lawyer who specializes in Real Estate zoning. Though all he can do is give you an "educated opinion" (as John T. would say) on your legal position. I employed one in a matter before the BZA and he thought it was a slam dunk, but I lost.

You're dealing with people on BZA and Planning Commissions who may have little or no training or background in Real Estate Law and who are on the boards simply because they were appointed by the Board of Trustees. As I mentioned above, I've dealt with them in my township and it's astounding what they base some of their decisions on. Logic, law and common sense do not even enter the discussions.

My gut feel is that your home would be grandfathered in as a "non-complying" structure, so they can't make you fill in your basement just out of the blue. You got LEGAL document (permit) at the time of construction. I don't believe they can deny a building permint just because you have a non-compliant structure that you're working on. Let's say you wanted to upgrade your electrical service from 100Amp to 200Amp and the electrician goes to pull a permit. I don't think they could deny the permit (again this is IMHO). Now, if you wanted to put a basement under your additions, that would be a different story. In any case, that doesn't mean the permit won't be denied. It can be denied for any reason and it's up to you to go to the BZA for relief and then potentially to court if you don't agree with their ruling.


Also, get a copy of your Township's ordinances. Many of these are online. Many of them in Michigan have also been adopted from other townships and modified/amended by the various townships so they are not always identical yet share a lot of the same language. In reading them regarding permits, non-complying structures, etc. you will probably find that the ordinance doesn't address your situation directly. I reviewed my township's ordinance and how it would apply to your situation and found NO direct answer. I live just outside of a 100 yr flood plain and there ARE issues regarding flood insurance, etc that affect mortgage applications.

I wouldn't "be scared to ask for a permit", as you put it, since worst they could do is deny it. You are already on their radar screen so just going ahead and building WITHOUT a permit.... not a good idea. And rest assured, they will find out if you proceed. The eco-nazis at Michigan's DNR/DEQ must justify their jobs. If the township is supportive of your position that helps a lot. Good luck and post back on future updates to your situation.

My point exactly

Even though you are in a flood plain, if your house is at a higher elavation, you may be ok. The only way to determine if your hose is ok is with a survey. Also, flood insurance only covers the structure, not the contents. You probably have no recourse with the Township as it is property owners responsabilty to determine all zoning. You expect to get correct information from Township, but you still have final responsabilty.

You have a good point, and I totaly agree. We delt with this exact thing a year ago with someone I know real well. The insurance kept going up and up.

I was going to explain in detail, but I think for the party involved I best leave well enough alone. I guess I can say if you happen to know the right folks in the right office all can be well at no cost. Most government folks can make things happen and look the other way if the HEAT is applied from above.

Little Barnney can be swated like a fly from the powers that be. Not that this is the right thing, just that it can happen, and does on a daily basis.

In this case, the addition could be a costly one, so a sleeping dog may be the best type of dog.

I even now wonder if the original post is in his best intrest, often it comes down to how come he can, and I can't?

The only thing that matters is whether the local code has an update requirement where a new permit to an existing structure requires the rest to be brought up to current code. If not then just apply for what you want. We run into that requirement in commercial work but its not as common in residential work, just ask. Local building depts. get roped into these flood plain regulations cause they are easy to get into but hard to exit. DNR enforces these regulations thru pressure on the locals.