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Help, I need a electrician!

M

Mark Warden

Member
I have an old Ritchie cattle waterier that had a bad heater that attaches to the bottom on the water tank. I replaced the heater and thought all was well until I noticed the cattle avoiding it. I went over to the waterier to see what might be the problem, no obvious problems, I stuck my fingers in the water and I could fill a slight shock on a finger I had a cut on, The cattle are getting a small shock when they would try and get a drink!? I get out my volt meter and I am getting a little over 2 volts in the water?? I remove the wiring cover and find I'm getting this voltage back through my ground wire (bare copper) that grounds the waterier. Where would I be getting voltage back through this wire? I disconnect it and the waterier is fine no stray voltage? The waterier has been there for years nothing has changed.Maybe just a coincidence I found this when I did the cattle were drinking out of it right before this? Shouldn't this stray voltage be going back to ground anyway, and not back to the waterier? The wiring is coming from my barn that has about 6 circuits, could it be coming back from one of those circuits? We have had some really wet weather the last 7 days maybe this has something to do with it?? Thanks Mark
 
Get it fixed quick, voltage that tickles a man can kill a cow. Neighbor had some stray voltage in his dairy barn to feed as you milk feeders. Killed a couple of nice dairy cows.
 
Livestock can feel a fraction of a volt. They have four bare feet grounding them. Had a Ritchie hog waterer that had a thermostat that was leaking voltage from the day it was new. I couldn't feel the shock at all. The waterer was grounded to a good new clean ground rod driven deep into damp ground and the hogs were still flinching. I checked everything electrical on the farm, thinking something was backfeeding through the neutral from somewhere. I felt kind of stupid after I found the real problem cause it was so simple. Jim
 
Mark, let me get your questions first:

Where would I be getting voltage back through this wire?

That equipment ground condutor is running closely in paralell with the hot phase conductor and as such its possible to impart a voltage on the equipment ground conductor slightly higher then mother earth potential. Back at the service entrance the Neutral is bonded to mother earth via the grounding electrode conductor (big No 4 bare copper wire) to earth via a grounding electrode (big copper rod driven into earth) and the Equipment Ground Buss is bonded to the Neutral Buss, and absent the long paralell conductor runs the equipment ground is pretty well at earth potential there UNLIKE out at the barn


I disconnect it and the waterer is fine no stray voltage?

Thats because your no longer raising the waterer to that higher then earth potential

OR ELSE THERES A MINOR (high resistance) SHORT SOMEWHERE

I dont have the NEC handy (down in Florida for the winter) but as I recall theres an NEC exception FOR REMOTE BUILDINGS USED TO HOUSE LIVESTOCK that allows you to drive an extra mother earth ground rod and bond the waterers metal frame to that which takes it back down to earth potential so old Bossy isnt shocked when she drinks from the fountain

Hopefully others can add to this and even quote the NEC exception to address and correct this "shocking" condition

John T
 
Go back to the barn and check the ground bar there to see if you have voltage.

Is there a ground rod at the barn?

We had that one time with stray voltage and it was caused by a bad neutral connection and the only way for the water to get neutral was thru the ground rod. We could not feel it but the cattle could. The bad connection was way back at the meter pole.

Check all the neutral and ground connections for corrosion.
 
Yes, you do.
While you are waiting; be prepared to answer these questions.
How many 110V circuits and which of the entrance legs is it on. (Relates to neutral balance).
How many 110V motors (fans, pumps, drain motors,etc).
You say "nothing" is changed. Does that include EVERYTHING that is downstream of the entrance including the house or other outbuildings .
Possibly somewhere a neutral has failed (is failing) and is using the bare ground as a 110V return leg path.
Are you on the end of the line, (so to speak)related to your electrical service as it's distributed down the road.
Some cases may possibly come from upstream loss of ground potential.
 
Another thought.

Pull the new eliment out of the nesting clips and let it dangle without touching the trough.

Now check things out.

May be a bad eliment.The outer metal lining of the heat eliment should have no voltage.

Gary
 
2 volts isn't excessive though. There was a huge problem here in Michigan with stray voltage in dairy barns. They ended up putting a split neutral in my service. I was told by a power company rep that when they get below 1.5 volts,they quit looking.
 
To a cow standing in mud sticking a tongue in a waterer with 2 volts is like sticking your finger in a light socket. They quick drinking.

Cures are difficult when the power company things wrongly that 1.5 volts is good enough.

Classic cure is to bury a ground screen connected to the safety ground so the cow is standing in mud at the same voltage as the waterer. But its hard to train the cow to jump over the edge of that ground screen unless it tapers down deep into the ground for 20 feet at the edge.

The low voltage often comes from the power system ground connected to the local ground. A more effective scheme not liked by power companies is to break that primary to secondary ground connection. That puts the insulation in the distribution transformer in jeopardy when lightning hits the power line, so power companies want to put a surge protector across the ground wire gap to get the use of more grounds on the customer property.

I've seen such stray voltages put cattle or dairy operations out of business.

When it comes from the power line ground, its hard to cure without going off line.

Gerald J.
 
They wouldn't quit looking here in Minnesota, after the lawsuits they've gone through.... Your state will come up to speed someday.

.5 is a problem to work on, 2v is a serious issue.

I went with a Cobett ground tube heater, no electricity needed here in MN, keep the water & electric away from each other.

--->Paul
 
(quoted from post at 15:05:20 02/01/10) Another thought.

Pull the new eliment out of the nesting clips and let it dangle without touching the trough.

Now check things out.

May be a bad eliment.The outer metal lining of the heat eliment should have no voltage.

Gary
Click to expand...
I agree---Just because the item is new, doesn't mean it is good, especially if it was made in Communist China!
 
Don"t you have a ground rod at the waterer? I put them on each one I installed. Six foot copper rod under the waterer, before pouring concrete. Animals cannot access them- just don"t hit the water line!
 
Ain't saying it's right or wrong. Just telling what Consumers Energy's stand is here in Michigan. We got down to .5 with the split neutral.
 
Would it be possible for all the dirt and stuff that floats around an old barn to get into the plug and light switch enclosures, with all the wet weather we have, and cause a small amount of voltage draw across the hot and ground wire? Just a thought. I do have a ground rod at the base of the breaker box that goes up to the ground buss with a #8 or so copper wire. The waterier is about 25 yards from this point. The heating element appears to be good, as it works with the bare ground wire loose without any stray voltage in the water. The voltage is coming back from the barn? Would it hurt to leave the bare copper ground unhooked and drive a ground rod at the water and ground that way? I know I still have a problem to fix but the cattle would have water that would not shock them. If I have a bad ground at the ground rod would this cause this? The power comes to the meter pole were it splits and goes to the house and to the barn, the main ground wire goes into the ground at the base of the pole, I guess as deep as the pole is set. When it gets to the barn it drops into the breaker box and out to about 6 circuits with a ground rod at the barn. All that is in the barn is lights and ele. plugs with nothing plugged in at this time. What if any kind of voltage should I see, would be normal on this wire. Thanks for every ones help on this, kind of a strange deal for me?????
 
I had that happen once about 10 years ago on this same waterier. So I thought I maybe had a bad new element but when I went to checking things out with my volt meter the power was coming back to the waterier through the bare copper wire. The heater would still work and the stray voltage was gone.
 
You have loose/bad neutral somewhere ,from the service entrance to the tank. Had that in a house I had once ,touch the sink and running water and would get a tingle. Had a loose neutral in the meter base.
 
Up here where it gets really cold freezing ground will jack the poles up and pull wires out of the clamps in boxes. Happens all the time.
Took me a year or two to figure that one out.
Now it is the first thing I check. Always worse after a wet summer before freeze up. Just a thought Ken
 
I've seen pigs squeel and drink at the same time.

I always drop a 8 ft gnd rod under ever water,And enclose the connection with 100% silicone calk. The local electrician says that is a no no.

Richie used to advise GND rods, but haven't installed a Richie in years.

We once we rewired a old house, new enterance, box. the whole 9 yds. She lived in town that was along a river. Her neighbors sand pit pump was shorting out, then came under ground to her sand point. Her kitchen sink was the only place it was detected. I heard that my name was kinda smeared in town for the ordeal.

The power company found it after we disconnected the main breaker, and still had a tickle at the kitchen sink.

It was a challenge, because it would only tickle us when the neighbors sand pit pump would kick in. I think my brother still has scars from scratching his head and wondering.
 
That's interesting who would have thought. I think I will install a ground rod at the tank regardless what the problem turns out to be, that sounds little something that should had been done in the first place? Didn't think about doing that 20 years ago.
 
Mark, the fencer information I've read says to try to keep them 50' away from water and its ground rod. When the ground gets wet and frozen, then something about the electricity in the ground migrates.

Try disconnecting the charger and see if you get any voltage so we can rule that out. Let us know.
 
40 years ago I lived in a mobile home. Mobile home code required 4 wires, 2 power, 1 neutral and 1 ground. Had metal water lines and a copper line going to the trailer. Removed the water line and noticed sparks. Turned the power off and sparks were still there. There was about 2 volts between the water line ground and the trailer ground. Connected the water line and measured one amp flowing through the water line. Some say that high voltage lines induce a voltage in the ground. Heard of dairy farmers cows getting shocked with milkers. The problem was the high voltage towers going across his farm. Electricity is magic. You may need an isoluation transformer fix your shocking problem. good luck. I could never figure what caused the current running through my water line.
 
This is yet more proof that the ground system and the neutral is not the same.Try to tell some people however........
Somewhere there is neutral current flowing on the grounding system.
Assuming that the electrical service and meter is not at the barn. There should be no bond between ground and neutral at the barn six circuit panel.
The barn panel ground and water pipes need to be connected to two 10ft ground rods driven into the ground at least 10ft apart. Deep well casings make a good ground too.
It's possible the voltage is partly from the electrical utility where the primary neutral and your electrical service neutral are bonded at the transformer.
 
Yep and the freeze/thaw ground heave will pull buried phone and cable lines loose out of their box when made up too tight.
 
Mark, does the waterer have any type of circuitry that may have been damaged when the element quit? Might still be something in the waterer. I assume you have called Ritchie on this.

After you find the root cause, you may want about 3 more ground rods. One at the waterer and an extra one 10' away from the panel and also from the one at the fencer.

Does your waterer use a metal or plastic water pipe?

How about the water line going to the barn from your house/well/rwd?

Do you have a phone or computer line going from the house that could be carrying stray voltage?

Rats or squirrels been eating any of the electric wire insulation or is it all in conduit? Cattle hooves messing with your electric wire?
 
No, just an old plain and simple??? waterier, 110 volt heating element and a water line with a float valve. The water is carried all through ploy pipe to the house and to the barn, no good ground there. I do have a phone line in the ground to the barn? All wiring that I have checked appears to be good. This weekend I will get back out there and check everything mention on this thread and come up with something.I will let you know what or if I find the problem.

Thanks!!
 
So buickanddeere are you saying the bare ground wires and the neutral wires from the six circuits do need to be separated at the breaker box? Leave the neutral wires hooked up to the service neutral buss bar and bring all the bare ground wires together and take them to a ground rod? You are correct, the electrical service and meter is not at the barn. By doing what you mention will this take care of your last statement - It's possible the voltage is partly from the electrical utility where the primary neutral and your electrical service neutral are bonded at the transformer.


Thanks for your help!!!
Mark
 
Good luck. Since this all started with the waterer repair, I suspect that is your problem, a defective part or something you did in wiring it in. When the element burnt out, a wire might have melted somewhere as well. Recheck it. Tape everything. Since it is outside, buy a tube of dielectric grease from walmart or auto parts store and coat it all good.

Water lines and phones lines still create a path for errant current. Poly pipe and insulated wire doesn't ground itself either. Your house ground rod could be dumping excess current and it will find it's way into anything and especially a path that will carry current easier than dirt. All dirt is not created equal and especially when it is wet and/or frozen. That is why so many grounding rods are used on 10' spacing depending upon your soil type. Since about all house grounding systems are also hooked to the water pipes, a house problem could show up at the barn. Same for an electric company transformer problem cause they also ground at the meter in the same place your house ground is. Usually not a problem till a defect in the wiring system shows up.
 
dc, when I first noticed the problem I would have agreed with you 100% on defective part or something I did in wiring it in. I went back and checked and double checked everything I did. Maybe just a coincidence things happen this way. Its working fine with the ground wire off now, I do have the waterier grounded through a ground rod now. This weekend I'm going to look at everything I was told on this thread and hopefully find the problem. If not I'll get an electrician out here.
 
Open the bond between the barn panel's ground and neutral bar if somebody has wired them together in error.
Somewhere in the system the ground system is carrying neutral current.
Could even be coming from the utility connection at the transformer.
 
You have it correct.
Under ideal conditions there should be a ground cable grid. Connected to every service panel to the every ground rod/panel box,water pipe etc together.
Voltage drop on the utility neutral which gets transferred to your barn electrical service. Is the cause of many mystery diseases, aliments,stress, low production etc.
It would be fair to say that that one little bond wire running between the utility primary neutral and the customer's secondary neutral. Has bankrupted 10's of thousands of livestock farmers.
 
Think outside the box. Find the largest plastic container you can find. Like a 30 gallon or larger plastic trash can. Try to find one that will give you the largest laterial surface area. Put a cement block in the botton and fill it with water. You may want to put the container on a few brick to allow water to flow under the container. Put your heater inside the trash can. Put the lid on the can to keep the cows from drinking from the plastic container. The idea is to electrically insulate the heater from the water the cows drink from. Hopefully the heat transfered through the plastic container will keep enough ice melted for the cows to get a drink without getting shocked. If that doesn't work well enough try using an air pump for a fish tank. Wal-mart sells a pump for 2-60 gallon tanks for around $11. I use the air pump on my small fish pond. The air bubbles keep a hole in the ice. This keeps my oxygen levels up and I don't get winter fish kill. Let me know if it works..LOL George
 
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