Welding question

I'm asking this in regard to a post OLD made below about repairing a break in a loader arm. In the post OLD stated, 'Well V it out is the right thing to do but using a mig is the wrong way in my book......I also use either 7014 or 7018 rod when doing the repair and I make sure I run it on the hot side.'

I've seen basically the same thought expressed on here many times over the years so my question is this. What is the basis for thinking that stick welding is any better than wire fed welding? Most major mfgs have gone exclusively to some form of wire fed welding (gas shielded,flux cored,subarc, etc) for all of their welds, and have been using the process for many years with no problems. I'll guarantee any of you if you have a machine or implement on your place less than 40 years old it was built using mainly (if not completely) a wire fed process.

Granted both processes have advantages. If the weld needs to be done outside and the wind is bad then gas shielded isn't the way to go, but that doesn't rule out flux cored. The biggest advantage of stick welding is that the power source is all you need and all you have to drag around is the cables, where as with wife fed you need to lug the feeder around also. One big advantage of gas shield is that you can mke multiple passes without chiping flux but that advantage goes away with flux cored wire or when using subarc just as it does when using a stick. Along the same lines when you buy 50 lbs of stick rod your getting say 45 lbs of rod and 5 lbs of coating but when you buy 44 lb of solid MIG wire your getting 44 lbs of wire. Basically it's alot more economical to use gas MIG than anything else, unless you run a special shield gas instead of the standard 75/25.

Moving on, and concerning the strength of the weld, the strength of the electrode alloy is the same for a 7018 stick rod as it is for a ER7018 wire electrode (whether it's bare, coated, flux cored, or any combination thereof). As far as the actual penetration of the weld they are going to be the same if of done right. That said when you MIG if you want more penetration or higher welding speeds you can often do that by using a higher voltage and/or wire speed, or also by using a different shielding gas, etc, etc, where as with a stick machine you just turn up the amperage a little. Too when using either process using a larger electrode and the proper settings gives more penetration and faster welding times, and if the weld requires it then that's what you need to do because it's either that or multiple smaller passes for the same strength. Too with either process if you get things too far out of spec on the amp/volt settings, if you weld too fast, if you weld to slow, if you don't hold the correct arc length, etc,etc then you get a poor quality weld.

Given all of that can anyone tell me why MIG welding is viewed as inferior to stick welding....when in fact both processes would provide the same quality weld, in any given situation, when properly performed...and in fact have done so for alot of years on millions of pieces of equipment???

Any of you folks own a Ford Explorer? I worked from 2000 to 2005 in a plant that made Explorer frames, and the only stick welders we had, to my knowledge, in the plant were the ones the maintenance guys used on the fixtures themselves. EVERY WELD on the frame was done by MIG...some of the longer welds were done robotically, shorter welds and tacks were done manually, all with MIG welders. Robot welders usually used 1000-lb spools, while the manual welders used 45-pound spools...most of which was ER70S-6, with standard argon/CO2 75/25 shielding gas.

So, whether you know it or not, you may be trusting your very life--as well as the lives of loved ones--to a vehicle with a MIG-welded frame. And I think the frames have managed to do quite well WITHOUT being stick-welded, for the front suspension crossmembers to be able to stand up to the forces those welds undergo when driving at expressway speeds, or in moderate-speed cornering...probably a lot more load than many small tractor loader arms will ever see at one time.

Stick is fool proof when done by a qualified welder. MIG has too many variables. In structural welding short circuiting transfer MIG isn't even qualified. Spray transfer is but most home owners with a MIG set up don't use it as it needs high amps and is hard to use out of position. Stick puts more heat input into the steel which results in less of a quenching effect and the slag covering slows the cooling rate. Stick is slightly softer than MIG as well. You'll notice a difference when grinding welds down. Most, but not all new machinery is done by MIG or flux-core because it is faster. Factories use high end welding machines with spray transfer and pulsed spray transfer. Not many home owners have that kind of equipment. There are very few multiple pass MIG welds. I think that at least 8 out of 10 welders would rather stand behind a 7018 weld than a MIG weld. That comes from experience. On critical work like pressure vessels, MIG is only used for root passes and usually has a 7018 hot pass before being finished with sub-arc. Nozzles on vessels are usually filled up with 7018. Flux-core is starting to be used more on vessels but stick still dominates. Although the specs. look similar between MIG and 7018, if you compare them side by side, 7018 will have better as welded properties such as low temperature impact strength. I'm sure the other qualified welders on here can add more but I'd take 7018 over MIG for the strongest weld possible every time. Dave

Mig is used for production welding, it is faster and requires little to no clean up. The parts fit well and the blind robot can run a bead where it is programed to. Wire machines have been used on auto bodys for over 40 years. The auto manufactures use then to weld where a spot gut can't weld the required pieces.

I did not see old's post but would agree that stick would be my perfered method also. When you prepare the joint on the machine you don't always get a perfect job (set up). With a stick machine you can see the puddle better and control what you are doing. I have ran a lot of wire but am more comfortable with a stick for heavy stuff.

If you want excellent control in welding use a Tig machine. There are disadvantages with those machines also. There are cheap wire machines and cheap stick machines. You need to have a good machine when doing quality work.

My two cent's worth.

Basically we use what we have and what we are comfortable with and afford. Mig welders are a good bit more expensive than stick in a size that will handle thick metal. I have a little mig welder I keep around the house for sheet metal anything else I use our our portable gas powered stick welder. My brother has two mig welders one big one small in his shop and an old stick welder. Any time he has a critical weld he calls me to come over to do it. And I always tell him to pull out the stick welder and have it ready. That's what I am comfortable with.
Ron

I have a high quality 250 amp MIG welder and I trust it to make good welds. I also have a good quality AC/DC stick machine. The stick machine sees very limited usage and that is usually on something that has less than ideal conditions.

Tho I agree in production welding, Mig is far better. Having said that, I agree with Old as most people on the farm or in home shops are NOT professional welders, thus the problem. I began welding with bare electrodes and have done and taught all the above mentioned types of welding. I have a Handler 175 mig in my shop along with a Lincoln AC-DC and an Airco Bumblebee ACDC machines, not to mention a set of torches. All will give the same result (even the torches)if you have the knowledge and skill. But for the average home welder that has limited training & uses his (or her) welder for a short period of time each month. Go with the stick properly prepare the area to be welded in welding "cleanliness is the utmost important thing" Just my thoughts, Keith

You right in some respects. I use to make mig wire from .030 to .078 and it all depends on what is being welded and were. You can weld new steel up to 2in with a mig if you have the right mig welder. The .078 E70C-6 we made had to be done by a robot because you cant control the weld by hand. We sold this wire to the ship builders and to tank builders (military). Mig and stick have there place on the farm. Just about everyone has a stick welder but most farms dont have a mig. For thinner metals I will mig it, but if its 3/16 up I will get the stick welder out and do the job. I have never broken a stick weld that I made but have a mig weld. The biggest problem with migs is you make a good weld ( on 3/16 up) but it dont penetrate that good and it brakes. The thing about it is simple. Most people that can stick weld (good)cant weld with a mig that well. And if you can mig with the best of them you cant stick as well. I made lots of test welds with a robot and could not come close to it doing it by hand. You will never see some one putting up high pressure (steam) lines up and use a mig to weld it! THEY ARE STICK WELDED FOR A REASON !! Stick and mig have there place on the farm and up have to be smart enough to figure out witch is the best for the job at hand. Just my $.02 Bandit

When I went to Hobart welding School some 40 years ago mig was just being developed,Hobart called it Micro-wire welding. The teachers and engineers back then said with-in ten years it would totally replace stick welding.Has this happened? NO, but it has taken it's place.I have five mig welders and 4 stick machines and a TIG machine and they all have their uses, but to say one is better than the other is not correct.What is correct is to be a good enough welder to know what to use on a given job, that will produce the best results in the least amount of time in the most cost effective way.

Not sure you are correct about the structural shops 135fan. I owned a structural steel fabrication shop and have visited dozens of others, also I have read the spec book and bid on thousands of jobs, not one spec book I read said anything about mig welds not being qualified. All of them said 70 series wire or electrodes were needed. As said below, ER-70.... wire is qualified.

All our welders had up-to-date certificates and all welded "tickets" to be tested by local certification house. All the "tickets" were 1/2" plates, v'grooved with a 1/8" gap and welded up-hill, as necessary to be certified in all positions. Root pass is done with hard-wire and all other stringer passes done with 70 series flux-wire (outershield) WITH gas, 75/25.

Also, if a drawing called for full-penetration or large size fillet welds this was always done with with wire machines and 75/25 gas on multiple passes. Sometimes dozens of passes on one full-penetration weld.

The only reason we had a stick machine was if we had to weld a bunch of galvanized material we set up outside so the smoke wouldn't make everybody sick.

We use hard wire .035 (no flux) and gas on misc. steel, like stairs and handrail and light work and fluxwire .045 (outershield) and gas on heavy structural. Never had a weld fail.

That is just my experience here around the Louisville, KY area.

On the farm I have a gas engine Miller stick machine and I use 7018 rods for everything I make sure to clean everything as well as possible. Just not feasible to keep a wire feed welder on my farm.

The number one reason to use stick in a farm or home situation is cost.
No gas contract for stick.
No 2500 dollar welder to get the results of a 600 dollar stick welder either...

Then... you don't have to drag the damn thing within 5 feet of where you're working, or fight the wind, or screw with plugged guns... or snagged wire....
I've never much cared for trying to peek around the end of the mig gun to see what I was doing either.
I'd much rather work with stick any day over Mig.
I'm sure there is a place for mig, and mabey some day I'll get one for certain jobs... but so far I haven't found anything I can't reasonably do with stick.
Mabey if I was welding aluminum I'd think differently...

Rod

You hit the nail on the head! I use to work for one of your competitors at hobart. Witch gas do you run with your mig argon or C02. I know it makes a big difference in tinsel strength with some wire. Bandit

When I went to college for welding learned about the diff. types of Mig welding. On loaders when made Spray-transfer Mig welding is used alot if I remember right. Most Mig welders people have at home arent Spray-tranfer Mig machines.
Ryan in Northern Michigan

use both at work & home a lot
done right, no difference
with mig , i find steel has to be CLEAN & no wind & you can get a beautiful strong weld
with stick, conditions don"t have to be perfect, and you can get a pretty, strong weld
same as anything else, aint the tool, it"s the tool operator
bob

Bandit,

Which Hobart competitor did you work for? I worked at Tweco for a little over seven years. I had access to the R&D lab and got to see a lot of neat stuff.

To be honest, most of the people that learned to weld on the farm learned on a stick welder. They know that 7018 is a high tensil welding rod that will make a very good weld if installed properly. They don't really have a clue how good wire welding has become, so they stick to the old adage that 7018 is the only welding rod that will work. I promise you that you get get a mig welder to produce just as good a weld if put down right. One thing that always makes the stick is better than wire is welding outside. Other than that, another thought is that a lot of people have cracker box stick welders, but few have mig welders, so again it's easy for them to keep with mig is bad.

Having read all of the replies so far let me add a few things from my experience. One is that I agree spray transfer is superior to short circuit transfer any day of the week. However saying it's not available to the typical homeowner is wrong. We have an old Miller MIG machine with 250 amp max output (not sure on the max voltage) and run .045 wire. We used to run a 75/25 gas mix but changed over to 98/2 (98 argon/ 2 oxygen) and it made a huge change. Changing the gas gave us a hotter arc at the same settings and allowed us to get into spray mode without any problems with a typical 'homeowner machine'. I've welded 1/2 plate with it single pass with plenty of penetration and have done multi pass welds on things like the hitch pin on a scraper neck and never had a problem with any of the welds letting go.

We also have one of the larger Millers with 100% duty cycle at 350 amp and the programable feeder. We run a 500lb spool of .054 on it and it's set up with a water cooled torch hooked to the carriage on an old Cincinatti lathe. We modified the lathe with hydraulic drives on head and the feed and use it for buildup work. Over the years we've built up many parts on this machine and have never had a problem doing it using straight. That said when using the 98/2 gas on it we can also get the .052 wire into spray mode with no problem and do it at just over 1/2 range of the machines capabilities.

I see the idea put out that welding poor fitup parts is easier with stick. That may be true for some but myself I can weld up a poor fit alot easier with MIG than stick. I guess that comes from spending some years in a fab shop where we had to do alot of gap filling on light guage materials. In that case there is no way you could weld it all at once so you had to use individual spots built upon each other to fill the gaps. Once you master the 'one spot at the time' technique it's not that hard to do regardless of the material thickness. The main thing is watch the puddle and stop the arc just before it drips. By doing this you achieve maximum heat input and therefore penetration with each individual spot weld. When done properly the resulting weld has the same look as a weld done with TIG (ie-it looks like a stack of dimes laid out).

As far as mfg specifying different methods I can see that happening but most of the mfgs I've seen use MIG more so than anything else. Just watch the Discovery Channel, History Channel, etc and see the shows on shipbuilding and bridge building. I've seen them with a robotic machine attached around the main support column on a bridge runnig MULTIPLE passes of wire on a joint, I've seen robots running sub arc on beams and panels for a ship. Even the repair/mfg shop for Norfolk Southern RR uses MIG for nearly everything. In their case they use flux cored wire with a shielding gas also. I've seen them building a machine that welds long ribbon rails togeher. It uses steel plates two inches thick as part of the frame. They typically V the materials as required and start welding. These machines run cylinders right at 12 inches in diameter in a hinged configuration, with a huge mechanical advantage to the side that grabs the track, since it takes alot to hold a mile long piece of track without slipping. I've seen the two side of one get out of synch where the two 12 inch cylinders acted against each other and bent parts of the frame. Even with all that stress/force applied to the welds, the welds weren't what bent.

I guess in the end my main thing is that I've seen MIG welding viewed as an inferrior process to stick when in fact both will produce a quality weld when done properly. I was just curious as to why people felt that way when history and industry has proven otherwise.

My initial question would be "why don't they use MIG on oilfield and high pressure gas pipeline welds?" BUT...a guy told me they now are using mig in some applications.

Taking that in mind, probably comes down to use what you have in your shop, dance with who brung ya.

one reason for the popularity of mig is it takes less skill and knowledge . how many passes with the largest mig wire would it take to equal 1/2" stick ?

theres nuthin wrong with MIG if you have a machine capable of welding more than sheet metal...i learned on stick and can run as pretty a bead with it as you can with mig except for the bb's...point is neither machine is any better than man holding the stinger imho

There is nothing at all wrong with using a MIG welder on farm machinery.I worked at Allis Chalmers in the 1970s building Gleaner combines and the whole thing is welded with MIG welders.

Also I have welded for months at a time 9 hours a day on structural steel with a MIG.A weeks pile of iron that you weld with a MIG is a lot bigger than a weeks pile of iron with a stick.

Lots of people dont like MIG because they dont know how to weld with it,or they have a hard time
keeping the machine running or setting the machine.They maybe cant get the workpiece to the MIG.Its hard to drag a MIG around in a gravel driveway.Wind messes up the weld.

Its a lot easier to drag a cable out somewhere to weld than get everything up to the shop or in the shop with a MIG.

If you have a shop and can get your equipment inside,A MIG is great.Also the weld is stronger because you arent getting the piece being welded as hot.There is a bad misconception about heat and welding.You need to use the right amount of heat stick welding or Mig.Stick welding by turning it up and burning it in is not making a stronger weld,its asking for a weld that is more likely to crack.Either the weld will crack or right beside it.All you do by turning it up is burn up the metal and radiate heat out further in the piece which can make the piece easier to break especially by vibration.This is from experience and not some book.Any repair welding that you do is best not to use any more heat than it takes to run the rod good or melt the wire and fill the groove with no undercut.A flat weld can get a little hotter than an uphill weld and thats why an uphill weld is stronger because the heat doesnt radiate out into the piece as far weakening the surrounding metal.Uphill MIG is better on something you want to be as strong as you can get it.

Mig,especially on newer equipment with the newer metal used at least since the 1970s,is the best way to weld it.7018 stick would be next and for older stuff,then 6011 for stuff that is mild steel.The reason people dont like 6011 a lot is that they will burn the metal up with it and get a bunch of slag in the weld and it will crack.Welding downhill,or welding wrong,with any rod,can make a weld that is full of holes or slag that is not worth anything.MIG done right does not have this problem.Mig seems to be a lot easier to weld in all positions than stick unless you have lots of practice with a stick.If you have a MIG you can weld stuff easier and better than with a stick as long as you know how to set it,stay out of the wind,and can weld reasonably well.For me it was easier to learn how to weld with a MIG than a stick.

Also,you are supposed to chip MIG welds before a multiple pass.There may not be a lot of stuff on there,but it should be chipped because it can cause porosity.

Now it seems like every year or even more often something like this comes up.Then you get all of these people expressing opinions and putting out false information.There is no argument to this.MIG is better to weld newer farm equipment with as long as you are welding steel.Wire is just as strong as 7018 if using the same wire and welding it right.Any weld is better done at the right heat and with as little heating of the surrounding area as necessary.In some cases like welding something that has to be real strong 7018 done right which is uphill can be better,but its because of the different characteristics of wire and rod welds.MIG welds are a little more brittle but they gain some of that back because they dont heat the surrounding area as bad.

If there is some reason why MIG is not supposed to be used in structural steel like somebody said,there is a whole bunch of stuff welded with MIG welders used in buildings.So that is misinformation crap.All welding processes have their place,however its more to do with how steel is made and what strength is needed,penetration and other factors.You dont necessarily need to know all of that to weld farm machinery.It doesnt hurt to know all you can either for that matter.However unless you are making XRay welds on a pressure fitting a lot of times just some basic welding info is all thats necessary.If you suddenly want to build a skyscraper out on the farm you may want to go to the library and study up.The real,real strong welds that I know about are flux core wire with shielding gas that penetrate an inch deep.Lots of stuff that has to be strong as possible is welded with a process like that and others.However there are reasons for all different types of welding.In some cases torch welding may be the best choice.Welding is something that there is a lot to learn about,plus a lot of prejudices which cause misinformation,which cause stuff to end up in the junkyard before its time.Done right welding can be stronger than the piece was originally.Welds done right seldom fail.The metal right next to a weld usually fails because of the heat weakening it.

Dont fool yourself,all welding needs to be done as clean as possible.If you ever get an opportunity to look at a weld XRay showing the difference in dirty rusty steel and clean steel you will grind every weld.Different contamination of the weld can cause failure of the weld right when you need it to hold the most.Even 6011 welds made in rusty dirty areas are way stronger if you hit the area with a grinder first.

One of the biggest reason I say stick weld it is because MOST people do not own one of those $10,000 mig welders that do real welds. Those little $200 mig welders are made to sheet metal and stuff in the 1/16 of and inch. By the way I spent many a mnay 40 plus hour week mig welding and I know for a fact there are hundreds of Gal-A-Foam Docks all over the U.S.A. that have my welds on them but those mig welders where the top of the line Miller welders and we ran the hot also. I base what I say on the machine most people can/do own. The common man can buy a Lincoln buzz box and that will stick weld most stuff he has but a $200 mig just doesn't cut it on the heavy farm stuff

What about 6013 rod? I think thats what I had, ans I have 6011, good points, thanks for the info.

Most people,especially ones that already know how to weld,can learn to use a MIG good in about 30 minutes with a teacher looking over their shoulder.If you dont know how to weld with a MIG but own one,you should take a course or get somebody to show you how to use it before you bubblegum up a bunch of crap that can kill you or somebody else.So thats kind of a lame excuse since its easier to weld a good weld with a MIG because there is no flux covering the weld.

I think my post is down in tool talk and was in answer to some one else. When I asnwer a welding question I do so with the knowledge of welding sinice I did tig, mig and stick welding for a liveing and have welded a good many 40 hour plus weeks over the years doing all 3 types of welding and as I posted up higher theres hundred of thing out there with my welds on them

Most farmers have a MIG anymore.Usually a big Miller.Yeah there are those cheap welders out there that run on 120 volts,but I welded a dozer track together with one of them a while back and it had not broke 6 months later.Also welded a floor in a street rod with the same welder and its not broke either.If you can weld and have a welder that can do the job then it can be done.Seems like the newer 120 volt welders are a lot better than the older ones.I have lots of experience using a MIG,but its not as much experience as getting enough heat to weld with the 120 volt welders.They are a little short on heat but if you go slower they seem to work.You could have a different experience and I know different welders weld differently.

MIG welders like that are real good for sheet metal.They can get hot enough to weld thicker metal but have limitations.With Multiple passes you can weld thicker stuff.I dont want to say they are out of the question,but there is better equipment.They make MIGs like those small Lincolns that dont cost a thousand dollars and weld good too.

6013 rod,and I looked it up yesterday so its fresh on my mind,is for sheet metal.

Now if you know what you are doing you can make a good looking weld downhill with it,but it is worthless in my opinion.It is possible to weld with it if you know what you are doing.Someone had a picture on here a while back of a beautiful uphill weld they did with it.But if I was going to all the trouble to weld,especially uphill,I would get some 7018 and do it right.6013 is the weakest of all the welds you can make with a rod that has flux on it in my opinion.You can weld a good looking weld with 6013 and it can crack for no reason.
6011 is the rod to use if you have a buzz box.7014 is way better than 6013.7018 is about as good as you can get to weld most stuff nowdays.I wouldnt use 6013 for anything except sheet metal and not even that if I had a MIG.

6013 is a good rod for farm work where its hard to get all the old rust off but it still helps to clean the area as good as possible.
Most of us are sometime welders and know little about all of the best ways to weld, we just take our old buss box out put in a stick and hope it works. All you welding experts expect us to know what all this talk is about but we don't have 40 years of welding we have maybe a crash course in how to run a rod and stick something together. If it hold until the job is finished then we are happy.
Walt
Walt

Anything under 1/8 in thick I run 75-25 mix. Anything over that I run straight CO2.Straight CO2 is much cheaper and does just as good on most structural applications.I fab a lot of truck beds etc. Use CO2 on all that type of work.

Rod has my feelings covered. I've got both, both have their place but my mig is like being stuck using the smallest rod and only inside. I use it exclusively for sheet metal and small projects since its a pain to change the liner and put large wire in it.

Big plus on the mig, tacking doesn't make a mess of flux in a tough spot to clean. That alone makes it handy on bigger projects.

How do you run this on sheet metal.
6013 WELDING ROD

* All-purpose stick.
* Use in all positions on carbon steel.
* 60,000 psi tensile strength.
* Ideal for all-purpose applications and joints with poor fit-up.
* Runs on AC or DCEP (reverse) polarity or DCEN (straight) polarity.
* Diameter: 5/32

7018 is 70,000 PSI tensile strength.

I dont know where you get your info unless you dream it up.While some of what you say may have some truth to it,some doesnt.
There is a lot of stuff welded with a MIG.MIG is probably stronger in a lot of cases because it doesnt heat the metal up any more than necessary.You can argue all the rest of that stuff from now on,but if you are welding car parts or farm machinery there is no comparison.MIG works way better.
Now there are reasons stick is used preferably over MIG.Its not fair to make a blanket statement that stick is always better because that is not true at all.Maybe you should go to a school that tells you about MIG welding if you want to make statements about it.
In the welding that you do,which you wont see a lot on farm equipment,you may be right about stick.However you sound biased to me so I dont even think thats right.I think you were told to believe something to justify using a stick all the time,maybe because its easier to get in awkward places or some reason.There are processes that are stronger than 7018.As long as somebody perpetuates the idea that 7018 stick is better you may have a job.Which this is fine with me,dont get me wrong.I think people ought to have a job and welders that do what you do are amazing there is no doubt.However to condemn MIG welding as you all seem to like to do,is just wrong.MIG welding has its place and stick welding cant even come close to it.The only reason for using MIG is because its faster is another misconception.It is faster but they dont buy those high dollar MIG machines with lots of consumables only because they are fast.They are better for different types of steel and better penetration and dont heat the area up as much which adds up to better all around even if the weld material is a little more brittle.

I think you mean 6011.6013 is not for dirty rusty metal.Its for new clean sheetmetal.

This is how you run 6013,downhill on thin metal thats clean not rusty.

If you know what you are doing you can weld with 6013 but its easy to get slag in your weld.When you do you have to grind it out and weld it over again.Its not as strong as 7018 or even 6011 to start with.Try 7014 its a lot better.

Harris in mason ohio 9 years in R&D and production in cord wire.

In order to do structural welding in Canada you have to have a CWB(Canadian Welding Bureau)ticket. It is a higher standard than an AWS structural ticket. You have to do a seperate test for every welding process and every welding position. Each test cost's $100 so it can be a little expensive getting all your tickets! The test uses a back up bar between two plates about 3/8" apart. One plate has a 45deg. bevel and the other plate has no bevel. The first pass has to be run hotter than normal on the non beveled plate in order to get 100% penetration into the corner but the bead can't be too wide because another pass has to go on the beveled side and tie into the first pass with 100% penetration into the back up strip. After that the heat can be turned down and weld is relatively easy. Ticket's have to be renewed every 2 years, I believe, the same as pressure tickets. For stick the test's are done using 7018. A lot of good pipe welders fail the CWB test the first time because they don't run a hot enough first pass. For MIG there is no short circuiting transfer qualification, since it would never have enough penetration. There is a qualification for spray transfer MIG however, but MIG is rarely used. Why? Because of all position Flux-core wire that is on the market. Flux-Core and MIG are similar but aren't interchangable. They are a different process. Outershield(lincoln) is a flux-core wire and not a MIG wire. Sub-Arc is widely used for large beams, spiral pipe, pressure vessels and anything else that requires a huge amount of weld, X-ray quality and high production. It is a different process as well and has been around since the 20's. One of the first applications of sub-arc was welding beer kegs. Of all the welding processes it is perhaps the ultimate for strength. I can discuss welding with you KY and answer your questions since you obviously know a lot about welding. Some of the other's on here are so far out in left field, it's almost pointless trying to explain things to them. Dave

All 60 series rod is 60,000 PSI tensile strength

all 70 series rod is 70,000 PSI tensile strength.

What I asked was how do you use 5/32 6013 on sheet metal, you said 6013 was only good for sheet metal.

Walt

While you know a lot about welding,most of us arent in Canada.Most of us arent welding stuff like you are.I get mad at you when you try to throw that bias in there about stick when its wrong.I see you do know there is stronger welding processes than 7018.Actually you probably are a real good welder for what you do,Im not even disputing that.

There is a real need for welding that you do.Yet its wrong when you say that stuff about stick.I know from experience of welding on farm machinery with MIG and 7018 that MIG is better.MIG will take more vibration before it cracks on the steel used in newer farm machinery.To even make 7018 work on farm machinery you need to be a very good welder.Not many people are what you could consider a very good welder.Also they arent ever going to have to get any tickets to weld their stuff.Turning the welder up real high and burning it in is a big mistake on farm machinery.It almost is certain to result in a crack beside the weld using 7018.Im not even the best or most experienced welder around,I can get by.I wonder how I would know that turning it up hot will make it crack?Experience.
I keep away from saying weld everything with 6011 because its wrong.However if you can run 6011 it might be better to weld it with that than 7018 if you arent a good welder.Ive seen that too.A 6011 weld hold something 7018 wouldnt without cracking.
Yeah you know about welding.I am not going to tolerate your snide remarks or giving misinformation though.I am not way out in left field,I know what Im talking about.I may not know all of the stuff you do about your kind of welding,but I am getting tired of correcting your misinformation.
I dont care what school you go to,or how much you think you know,or even how many books you read.All of that is fine.Nothing wrong with it at all.However you dont give an unbiased opinion.You are misled by your assumption that because Canada does something about MIG welding that I doubt even happens in the USA that makes your opinion about MIG welding true.Canada has its reasons Im sure,but that means about nothing in welding farm machinery and cars.I could care less what Canada says about MIG welding or any of your tickets.Im sure you are proud of your accomplishments,but it still does not mean you are right,or even more knowledgeable about MIG welding than lots of other people are.Im fairly sure cars and farm machinery welded in Canada are MIG welded.Go over to a factory building machinery and tell them it all would be better off welded with 7018 stick and see what they tell you.

MIG is not the best choice for every kind of welding,I dont dispute that.MIG is better for newer farm equipment.The biggest reason I ever heard for that is because it doesnt heat the metal up as much.That is a big deal in things that vibrate,and not even that noticeable in stuff that just sets there.

Especially Diesel engines vibrate and MIG weld holds up better in those conditions.Also the alloy has something to do with it,and other reasons that I dont remember.

There is no doubt there are things that are better welded with stick 7018.Farm machinery and body work on cars are 2 things that arent better welded with 7018.Plus there are lots of other things that MIG will do just as good maybe better.
7018 done right is a fine way to weld.But its not the only or the best way to weld everything.I would even say its the second best way to weld most things people weld at home,and that is only if they know what they are doing.For beginners or people who dont know much about welding 6011 could be better for them.

Now Im not trying to make you mad.Im just getting tired of this what I can only describe as misinformation.You have a notion that welding with a 7018 stick is better and want to make everybody else believe it.Nobody at a school told you that,you came up with it in your delusional mind.Since that is the way preferred in your profession you think its the best,and nobody told you that in school either.

If you want to split hairs and look at everything from your point of view you might make an assumption that 7018 is better all the time.However its just not.The excess heating of the metal with stick is a big deal.Then besides that there are lots of other reasons.Somebody that uses 6011 all the time could make the assumption that 6011 is a better rod to use than 7018 too.In some cases he would be right too.

I had another response but it went blank when I tried to post it? I now know why most of the other qualified, experienced welders don't respond to topics like this. It is because they are too busy pulling their hair out, rolling on the floor reading some of the absolutely ridiculous posts. Yes, ridiculous. The original post was a very good question. I will try to give a response in laymans terms so everybody can understand it. If it seems harsh, I apologize but someone needs to tell it like it is in order to stop the insanity.
I never said MIG wasn't an acceptable welding process. Most people do not run spray transfer even if their machines are capable. You need to be up around 24 or 25 volts or more with high wire feeds. It isn't for all positions either. Short circuiting transfer does not put a lot of heat into the work and is very susceptible to cold lap and lack of fusion. It also common to have cold starts. That's why Lincoln was so late to come on board with MIG. The founder of Lincoln did not like it. For some applications short circuiting transfer is the best welding method.
At least 80% of experienced welders would choose 7018 over MIG for the highest strength weld on a piece of equipment. This is based on years of welding experience using both processes.
Flux-Core is a different process than MIG. The two are not interchangeable with each other.
TIG when done by a highly qualified welder is by far the best welding process but is slow.
6013 is a poor choice of rod considering there are much better choices. For small light duty stuff or sheet metal they will work. They have the lowest penetration and strength of all stick electrodes.
Putting more heat into the work while welding carbon steel gives more strength, not the opposite. Why are large thick pieces preheated if a colder weld is stronger? What does stress relieving do? It heats the weld up to about 1600deg. and slow cools it!
MIG welds do not have to be chipped when doing mutipass welds. The silicon deposits on the weld surface will burn out. Not having to clean the welds is a big advantage of MIG. Flux-core does have to be cleaned for muti-pass welds unless it's metal-core wire that leaves no slag.
Welds done right fail all the time. Not necessarily because of the weld. Parts can be abused and metal can fatigue after time. Why does every company working with Cats and excavation equipment also have a welding truck or welder they can call? Stuff cracks and breaks. Always has, always will. That's also why there are very strict requirements for critical weldments like nuclear power plants and pipelines, etc., etc.
If you want to learn about welding, you should learn from someone who has the proper schooling, qualifications and practical experience. Not from someone with no schooling, no qualifications and very limited knowledge. If you wanted to be a surgeon, you wouldn't want to learn from someone who's only qualification was they di-sected a frog in Jr. high school.
Flux-core does not penetrate an inch deep unless the joint was prepared that way. Flux-core can have deep penetration in relation to other processes but an inch deep? You wouldn't want a single pass weld with an inch of penetration. The weld would have too much filler metal resulting in a coarse grain structure in the steel and more than likely other serious flaws. More passes produces a finer grain structure and strength.
MIG does have to be done indoors and not everthing can be brought indoors to fix.

I could go on but I hope this clarifies some things about welding for people that want to learn. If other's don't want to accept it, there's not a lot else I can do. Dave

MIG is easier for poor fit up. You can stop and start a lot easier to let the puddle cool without getting slag in the way. MIG is not inferior. A lot of things like pressure vessels MIG isn't qualified for except for the root pass. Most construction machinery is welded with flux-core. I think a lot of people confuse MIG and flux-core. All welding processes have their place. A skilled welder could use a variety of different processes to achieve the same effect. Most would choose stick(7018) for a really strong repair. Dave

Look below for a reply.You go off the deep end all the time when there is no need for it.Im a mechanic not a psychiatrist.

Yeah you know some stuff but you dont know everything.Especially about farm machinery.Also your attitude makes what you do know less of an acceptable answer.Sure I can go find 20 welders that will say everything is better welded with a 7018 stick.I can get just as many or more that prefer MIG.Just because you write a lot,or talk a lot,does not make you right,or does it make your opinion any better.It certainly does not make your biased opinion anywhere close to the truth.The sooner you figure that out,the sooner you will quit pulling out your hair.

Well thats a good question.I wouldnt use a 5/32 rod on sheetmetal probably.

You can weld with 6013,Im not going to deny that.It doesnt penetrate deep and look it up yourself,its low penetrating rod made for new clean sheetmetal welding.

If I knew what you were welding Maybe I could tell you,but to weld sheetmetal the best way is downhill and if you stay in front of the puddle it makes a good looking weld without slag in it done right.Its not very strong.Even if its 60,000 tensile strength its easy to break.About one hit with a good sized hammer and it will bust like it wasnt even there.Its brittle and not deeply penetrated.I think 3/32 or 1/8 would be better for sheetmetal which is all Ive ever seen.If 5/32 is all you have it might work on sheet metal if you move fast enough.

I was trying to be somewhat polite. You hate the fact that you don't know as much as you think and get all excited when ever anyone disagrees with you. I never claimed to know everything but I do have formal training, qualifications and years of experience. You don't! Dave

Yeah but I have experience.

Sorry, but 1 out of 3? In order to be a skilled craftsman with welding, there is a lot of theory and testing that is also required. Welding is the most tested trade there is. To say you are correct 33% of the time would be stretching it. In my very first response to the original post, I said that I, as well as most qualified welders, would choose 7018 for a high strength repair over MIG. I also stated that MIG could be used if done properly. A lot of times you don't have enough room to use MIG for a repair and can't get in position to see what you're doing. Dave

You are dillusional. Why am I biased because I'd choose 7018 over MIG for a repair that I wanted to be as strong as possible? I've done a lot of stick welding, a lot of MIG and a lot of Flux-core welding. It doesn't matter that I'm in Canada but since I am I can relate about quality standards here. Farm machinery is better welded with MIG and will take more vibration? What a load of crap that is.
When I repaired a bogey assembly for the mindbender triple loop roller coaster, I ran a 6010 root with a 7018 cap. I repaired a bogey that had already been sent out for repair. The repair completely missed one corner. After explaining and showing the head millwright how bad the sent out repair was, he contacted a welding engineer to see about getting a procedure for repairing bogey's in house. Guess what the procedure was? 7018 preferably with a 6010 root pass, the exact way I had repaired it. I must have been psychic... or maybe, just maybe, I knew what I was doing. An independant inspector requested that he watch me perform the repair since there wasn't a procedure at the time. I'm not going to put people's lives in danger by hoping I get a good weld using MIG. There is a lot of stresses on a roller coaster and 3 people were killed on this one in the 80's when the cars came off the track.
The designer/engineer had a heart attack after hearing that people were killed on his coaster. There is good bend in one of the support beams where the cars came off the track. The flange with the bend is on 3/4" thick steel! I think each car weighs a ton and there are 3 cars coupled together. There used to be 4 cars but they decided it was too fast with 4 cars and had too much G-force for the passengers. Roller coasters rely a lot on momentum and velocity. I don't remember exactly but it was thousands of tons of force when the cars came off the track. A special new bogey(wheel assembly)design was incorperated for this coaster and is the only type of it's kind in the world. All the repairs on the coaster, track and support structures have procedures for repairing them. Strangely MIG is never specified by the welding engineer but preheat is on the thicker sections.
In certain applications 6011 would be a better choice than 7018 but to say 6011 is stronger is not correct. MIG is better than 7018 in some applications as well, like body work. I'd like to see someone weld 20 or 22 gauge auto body panels with 7018. You don't just crank the heat up with 7018 and go welding. You set it at the appropriate heat for the job. Most MIG/Flux-core welding is done on brand new steel with nice clean, perfect fit pieces in a controlled environment. Most repairs are done with stick. Stick will tolerate a lot more than MIG.
You obviously don't understand that static and dynamic loading has everything to do with what rod and/or process is specified for a specific welding procedure. Can you give a better example of serious weld stress than a triple loop roller coaster? You can see the track and supports flexing when it is in operation. That is also designed into it so it doesn't shake itself apart. Bridges are a similar application that has to allow some flexibility. You seem more biased towards MIG than I do stick, Could it be because you have a MIG welder and not a stick welder? I used to have a stick/TIG welder and also a MIG welder. Which process I used depended on what I was welding and how strong I wanted it. With stick welding 7018 is most often the rod to choose if you're not sure what kind of steel it is or don't know what rod to use. That's not my thinking, it's common knowledge to people in the welding industry. If you can learn to do decent 7018 welds is most desirable. Dave

I agree with Keith. MIG is faster but stick would still produce the same or better strength requirement. MIG is more prone to weld defects, especially with unskilled welders. How many people can have a private instructor in their shop? Taking a welding course from an acredited school is a good idea for beginners or people wanting to upgrade there skills and knowledge. Trucker 40 could benefit from a good course on welding theory and practices. Dave

Now we may be getting somewhere!I wont dispute welding sky scrapers or a roller coaster might be better done with a 6010 or 6011 root pass covered with 7018.A lot of the reason for that is the mixture of the metal.
If MIG wasnt a lot better for some things I wouldnt have bought one when I already have a 180 AMP Lincoln welder.I would just weld it all with 7018 and 6011.
I bought an H Farmall with a loader.That loader was broke everywhere.Still is in a couple of places.I cut out old welds with a cutter on a grinder that were probably 7018 made by a pro because I could see the flux still on them in places and ground it down to the surface and welded it up with MIG.Then since then I have used for a dozer building 2 foundations for buildings and digging out concrete where a house burned down and not one crack.Also the previous owner had welded a grader blade to the front edge of it and the first time I used it that broke off.He had a nice looking 7018 bead across the front of the bucket with the blade attached to it.Instead of do all the grinding,I just cut the whole weld off at a 45 degree angle and hit it with a grinder and MIG welded it back on veed on one side.No crack anywhere on it and It gets lots of abuse.I took a stump out with it a while back and really put force on it using it for a prybar.
Thats just the last thing I welded on and it was old steel pipe that somebody nearly burned up with welding rods.Ive welded more than one 10 pound spool of wire on it myself fixing cracks and the other stuff.
Ive welded many hours on some old spray rigs.I built the booms out of pipe and back then the people I was working for only had an old buzz box.I welded some real good looking welds on there and they would run about 3 days and all of them would be broke.They thought it was me and hired a different welder and all of his welds broke too.So they went and borrowed a MIG welder from a body shop and welded it up and cut the cracking down a lot.
I went out in the river bottoms on a Sunday one time and this farmer had a great big field cultivator.Big as they made in the 1970s.He had gumbo dirt and a tractor turned way up to pull it and that thing was broke everywhere.I welded on it for a long time with a Pipeliner and 7018 just about all day.The next afternoon he called and it was broke everywhere again.So he brought it to the shop and welded with a MIG and it held.Where it broke the first time was in places that were welded with a stick from the factory.Whatever the square tubing is made out of in farm machinery doesnt like to be welded with stick.
Thats a couple of examples but lots and lots of things Ive welded since then have proved to me that MIG just works better for that stuff.
Even welding with a stick,if you put a big old nasty looking weave weld on something turned up hot and burned in like some people say,will crack before a weld that is no bigger than necessary and preferably uphill welded.Ive been told by highly experienced welders that its because the smaller weld doesnt heat the area up as much and thats why it doesnt crack as easy.Weaving is OK but not very wide.
Even old stuff like my loader will hold up better using a MIG but for sure the newer stuff is made out of some alloy that you cant hardly weld with 7018.
I remember a professional welder fixing a boom on a backhoe with a portable welder and 7018 and it broke in about 2 weeks.The right thing to use on that is deep penetrating flux core wire and it will still crack,but 7018 is almost a waste of time welding it with that.Its just too hot in too big of an area and makes that square tubing crack.That high carbon steel square tubing is a lot different than mild steel plate,pipe,beam,channel you deal with all the time.
Even on the same piece of equipment,depending on the metal and how thick it is,it could be better to weld it with a stick.However to fix cracks and places in thinner metal 1/8 TO 1/2 INCH THICK and especially on square tubing or pipe its better to use a MIG.I also wouldnt bet that because some pieces might be preferred to weld with 7018,it could still be welded and hold just as well because of the less heating up of the surrounding area on even thicker metal done right in multiple passes.
Ive welded structural and even roller coaster parts.If that was all I ever did I wouldnt know about farm machinery.Ive welded truck frames and I prefer 7018 for that.I wouldnt rule out MIG for a truck frame,but 7018 uphill is the way I was taught to do that.Fixing backhoe buckets I was taught to use MIG uphill.
I know there are lots of things welded with 7018 and even 6011 that hold up.If thats all you have you can get by on a lot of stuff.Even how you weld affects how it holds up Ive learned too.I was working on a big truck one day welding a brace that holds the muffler that had been broke more than it was fixed.It was fairly thick pipe about an inch around.I had it off v grooving it and welding it with 7018 because we only had a buzz box then.A guy that welded race car frames walked by and saw what I was doing and told me if I got a piece and bent it over it or another piece of pipe and cut it lengthwise and welded it only longways instead of around it,that it would quit breaking.I got about a 3 inch long piece of black pipe,cut in half lengthways,beat on it until it fit,welded only on the sides lengthways and it wasnt broke a couple of years later when they traded off the truck.
I had a professional stretch a truck for me because I didnt have a welder at the time.He welded the frame with a root pass of 6011 and then 7018 on top.Then he told me to get a sleeve bent to go just around the frame and past the weld about a foot on each end.Also the sleeve didnt go all the way to the edge it was back about a 1/4 from the edge.He took a torch and beveled both ends of it,beat it on with a sledge and clamped it,them MIG welded it skip welding 3 on 6 on both edges,then down just the bevels on the ends.Not across the frame just on the bevels.Hauled some real heavy loads and never had any trouble.The actual sleeve did crack a little in the corners,but no where that it was welded.
I myself have welded on lots of grain trailers and in some places used MIG and in some places used 7018 like on a fifth wheel plate for 7018,cross members MIG.
I have made repairs in the field with 6011 that held better than with 7018 on a combine.6011 seems like it will take bending and twisting in some things better than 7018.I still prefer a MIG,but its not always available or even possible to get one to the piece.
Now Im a fairly good welder and have plenty of problems with 7018.Even have seen where pros could and couldnt fix things,and can say that 7018 is not always the best and strongest way to weld something.It is especially bad for thinner metal like 1/2 in down on newer equipment and also older pipe fabricated stuff.MIG is just all around better for repairs on stuff like farm equipment that has cracked,possibly because it was welded with 7018 to start with.Anybody thats done some of this will tell you the same thing I did and probably have experiences like I do with the same thing.Even a good welder cant get this stuff to hold so how can an amateur who may or may not make a good weld with 7018?
I dont even want to get started on brazing or 6013 or any of that stuff there.However I have seen brazing done by a pro break and then fixed by the same guy with a MIG and hold.I have ground brass off of stuff and welded it with a MIG and it fixed it myself.6013 is worthless for me to use.Im sure some people can but Im not one of them.
Where 7018 works its about as good as there is.But its just highly overrated for a lot of things.Even 6011 can be a better choice sometimes.Static/dynamic argue all you want and get all bent out of shape,but it doesnt matter if the weld breaks.There are other factors you may not even know about yet to consider.Also fixing something is completely different than making something new from scratch.Even how the steel is cut affects how strong it is.The alloy its made of,whether it just sets there or has twisting and vibration and shock load to deal with.Also the amount of heat used on it to fix it and the stress its under when you get done welding it have all kinds of different affects on it.

A professional welder would never leave the slag on a weld. How can you be certain that something you got used was welded with 7018? For welding truck frames, a stronger rod than 7018 is preferred because frames are usually made of higher tensile steel. About the only time a MIG would be a better choice than stick, other than for faster production, would be on thinner material where burn through could be a problem. Anything that could be welded with MIG could also be welded with stick. Again the thickness may be the only limiting factor. Look at a rod selection chart for the different types of steel. Comparing brazing to MIG welding? That really takes the cake!!! However, in some instances brazing is a better choice than arc welding. Repairing steel hydraulic lines is one example. Brazing is not a fusion process like arc welding. The only thing that gets melted when brazing is the brazing rod. Silver solder which is a brazing process can be used in a lot of applications that welding can't be used. Fittings on hyd. tubing are silver soldered from the factory and very rarely fail. Hyd. tubing is very high quality low carbon steel. It could be welded but would need to be stress relieved which is too time consuming. No, 7018 is not the best choice of rod in all applications but as long as the piece needing repair is thick enough to weld with 7018, MIG wouldn't make a stronger repair. It is very clear that static and dynamic loading principles are so far over your head, that it's pointless to try and enlighten you. You really need to take a course or spend some time talking with a welding engineer or technologist. You really don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you could send Lincoln an e-mail and get some much needed knowledge before you make ridiculous statements that MIG is stronger than stick on farm machinery because it puts less heat in the weld. MIG/Flux-core is used because it is faster. It's not rocket science to figure that out. Maybe you'd listen more to an engineer but then again, maybe not. I'm still scratching my head over your comparing brazing to MIG welding on a piece of machinery. Dave