basic used tractor advice

Howdy.

I'm new to the farming and tractor biz so need some sage advice. I don't have the money for a new tractor so need to buy used. I like the older ones, but I'm not sure they are practical.

I have about 65 gently hilly acres of clay soil that can be quite wet half the year (Willamette Valley). I will keep most of it in hay, so need to pull a mower, rake, and small-bale baler. I'd also like to grow between 2 - 10 acres of grains, corn, soy beans, and root crops - primarily for feed, thus needing to pull a small plow, harrows, seeder, cultivator, small pull-behind combine, sprayer, and manure spreader. I'd also like to have a front loader, if possible, and I've heard that live PTO is the way to go. Not sure if I need 4WD, but it can get very muddy here.

I don't need anything fancy. As I'm small scale, I don't mind things taking a little longer because I have to do them the old fashioned way.

As there are so many good tractors out there, some general pointers might be what I need. Is there a particular year after which all makes and models had all the necessary features? Are there any clunker/lemon models or years to stay away from? What makes/models have the most parts available at reasonable prices? Gas or deisel?

Any other advice would be most welcome.

Best regards,

Lewis Brown

I would want 50-65 hp for that. Live or independent pto is need for safety and ease of operation. Live pto: You push the clutch pedal 1/2 way downand the forward motion of the tractor stops, push it all the way in and the pto stops also. Independent pto: a separate lever is used to engage-disengage the pto, clitch is used only to stop and start the tractor moving. By the middle 1960s almost all tractors had this. I'm reliably advised not to get a Ford tractor with Select-o-Speed transmission because few people can work on them and parts are scarce.

Make is not as important as getting one that has good nearby dealer support.

You need one with remote hydraulics to operate some of the implements you mention. Get a clear understanding of how a front end loader affects the operation of the hydraulics on any tractor you are looking at, on some models you can't operate remote implements with a loader or it is inconvenient to do so.

KEH

Wow! You made my head swim with what you are about to do and I've been at this for many years.To find all of that equipment is going to be a challenge.Hope you have a large shed.If fifteen people answer you, you will have fifteen different ideas, so in the end you are going to have to make your own decision anyway.I question someone with no experience wanting a baler & combine.A new one will cost you four times the cost of your land, but you could probably learn to operate it.An old baler or combine will need the experience of someone who has been around them for years to baby it though.I am retired from John Deere, so I would point you in that direction, but there are many good makes & models to choose from.MF made some good small tractors in the 60's & 70's. The older 10 & 20 series JD might also fill the bill. Having a JD background I would tell you to stay away from a JD 2010 as there were many problems.Live PTO is nice, but will cost more money. A two stage clutch will guive you the same results with less initial cost.The only implements needing that would be the mower,baler,combine.Tillage tools on that size acreage would be 2 bottom plow, 6-8' disc and an 8' drill.A small two row planter would work fine for you. I would suggest you have a co-op do your spaying for you.You will need wagons and a rake.I would also suggest you hire your harvesting done.Hope this helps & good luck.Wish I was closer,Id help you get started.

something like an i-h 400 may foot the bill. live pto, torque amplifier, decent horsepower. can prolly find one reasonable with a loader for 3-5k. get a set of duals, and be sure its a wide front tractor, better in the mud. gasser may be better to start with, a little cheaper to maintain, but it can be on the thirsty side. the deere guys can chime in with similiar models in the green line. going to 4wd is gonna up the price quite a bit, maybe look at a kubota diesel. consignment auctions are a good place to look for implements, sometimes can be had at a bargain price.

IH 686

Gordo

Thank you, KEH, for your advice.

It sounds like Independent PTO preceded Live POT in development. About what year was that IPTO considered standard?

Since we might be talking about "Yesterday's Tractors", can there really be dealer support for any except maybe Deere and Case/IH? How far back would they service?

Apropos hydraulics, sounds like on some models you can have front or rear hydraulics but not at the same time?

Cheers,
lb

Ford 5000 diesel would fit the bill.

Vito

Hello Jerry,

My long list of things to do and buy is a long term plan. I certainly cannot afford it all at once: time or money. As I learn, I'm sure it will change; but I want to get the tractor that can handle it all should it all come to pass.

Is the two-stage clutch different than the independent PTO someone else mentioned?

Your post _is_ helpful. Thank you for that and your "offer" to help me get started. That's a very kind sentiment.

Best regards,
Lewis

Non-live pto came first, then live, then independent- all at different years for different manufacturers. Two-stage clutch is only one version of live- AC had live pto and hyd with the hand clutch in 1948, foot clutch for shifting gears. AC D17 would also be a nice match for what you want to do, as well as many other models/brands. Has high and low range as well as live. Independent hyd in the Series IV. Hyd can be anywhere on the tractor, operating at the same time with multiple remotes. Lots of good things to study before you make a choice. Whatever you buy, get the operator manual first, as a minimum- details on ID of controls, basic lube, operation, etc.

Lewis,

Two stage clutch is the live power I mentioned.

There is dealer support for most tractors. You really will have to check out local dealers. I have no idea what is near you, but again I emphasize that it's best to get a tractor with local support.

Re hydraulics: That can be a little complicated. One system for loaders is to have a separate hydraulic pump running of the front of the crankshaft. There will be a separate tank built into the loader frame to hold hydraulic oil. It's a good system, leaving the tractor hydraulics to handle the power steering(don't get a loader tractor without Power steering), remote hydraulics, and 3 point hitch.

The other loader system uses the tractor's built in hydraulics to operate the loader. Late model tractors have big enough pumps to handle loaders, early ones except John Deeres and maybe some I H tractors, did not. Older tractors with no front pump would have slow acting loaders. I have been told that the 5000 Ford recommended above needed the external hydraulic pump for loader work, but I have no personal experience with it. The 5000 Ford is a really great, classic tractor otherwise and holds resale value well. The IH tractor mentioned above is a big heavy duty tractor and probably has enough hydraulics, but I don't have any experience with it either.

Both the IH and Ford mentioned have Independent pto BTW.

Hope this helps.

KEH

a MF 255,265,275,285, is hard to beat 3 pt hitch is a must ps is a must live hyd. with remotes is a must. stay away from anything with out a three point hitch and anything with a narrow front if your going to want a loader.

I have had the Ford 5000 and 2 of the 3 cylinder 4000 (sub series 4100 with the 38" rear wheels) and I would recemond a 4000 at any time over a 5000. And I had a loader on the 4000 using the built in hydrolics and I did not think it was slow and that was with a hydrolic bucket. Anything in that model Ford or a Massey Ferguson 165 would be a good choice for what you are wanting, some of the others are bigger than what I would want for what you are wanting to do and are also more clumsly designed. Anouther good choice for you would be a Allis D 17. For to get a front wheel assist add 10,000 to what these others will cost and then that would eleminate any cultivating of crops.

My dad's family bleeds blue and my great grandfather on my mom's side is roll'n in his grave with the death of the Allis name, so while I don't know any where near as much as most of the folks on here I know more about old Orange and Blue iron.

As for general advise here's my take. What kind of baler are you wanting? Even a small 4X5 round baler can be pretty heavy going up and down hills, while they don't take a great deal of power to turn they can take some power to get up hills when full and weight to stop going down. Of all the things you listed, I would say going small scale the size of your baler is going to decide how big of a tractor you are going to need. When you start looking, keep in mind that all the nice things you want came out and were new at one time, just like cars you don't want to first run. The first model series with a new option is usualy where the lemons were. For example Dual Power on the old fords. They came out first on the larger Xooo series and were not known for their durabilty. The X600 and X700's were much much beter. Same goes for FWA, no matter the color the first run were no where as good as the second.

If you have never been around tractors much it will show when you go to look at one some where. Take an old hand with you. Even if you have to pay the local profesional shade tree mechanic to ride with you to look it over it could be money well spent.

If you buy used, try to buy it from a dealer that sells the same color of new, they will be more help down the road.

If you buy one at auction or out of the newspaper or craigslist, this site or where ever try to talk to local tractor folks and find out which local dealer is the best. For me that's Ford or New Holland. There is a blue, green, and red dealer with in 30 miles of the house. The blue one is a local family joint, been there for years. They have two parts folks who have been there as long as I can recall and they know most folks by name even if they are only in there a few times a year. The red and green joints have been bought up by the regional supper size mega chains. They have a young parts and mechanic crew who might know a GPS unit inside and out but if you ask them about a widget for a 4020 or a 986 they just look at you till they figure out you are one of them cheap folks who just waste their time and never spend more than $10,000 when you walk in the door. The closest Agco dealer is over an hour away and while they are good they are an hour away. With that said, every thing else be'n equal, I lean towards the blue iron.

Didn't mean to ramble but hope I helped.

Dave

I wouldn't want a loader on a small 2WD tractor period. I know many people do that, and have for a long time... but there really isn't much need to be that stubborn anymore.
My preference is Ford.
I think you'd want something in the 50-70 hp range but a bit larger might not be a bad deal if the price is right.
For a good workable MFWD my preferences would be the 4630 or 5610 and 6610. The former will be more expensive because it's a smaller utility. The latter are a bit older and larger... so kinda out of your market so to speak... and may be cheaper to buy.
All are good reliable tractors. The 4630 (55 hp)will be a bit smaller and more manuverable. The other two larger, heavier and more powerfull at 62 and 72 hp respecitvely.
All will have independant PTO which to me would be very important. Each will have the option of an 8x2 crashbox transmission or an 8x8 or 8x4 syncro transmission... and could also have a dual power (2 speed powershift) option. For a loader tractor you'd want to move towards one fo the syncro models. The 8x2 is indestructable, but with 2 reverse ratios... not great for loading.

For other colors... the CaseIH 585, 685 and 785 would be comparable models as would their older IH siblings, the 584, 684 and 784... though I'm not sure where the older ones stood for MFWD.

Deere's 2350, 2550 2750 would be similar.

If you're not wanting to spend that kind of money, then the Ford (late) 4000, 5000, 4600, 5600, 6600 are all viable models... but all will come with reduced hydraulic capacity/options and 8x2 transmissions. For a small amount more money today you can get a 10 series tractor with quite a lot more functionality.

Rod

A Massey Ferguson 175 would be an obvious choice. I know where someone has a nice one on the classifieds for sale ;}

Get as big a tractor as you can afford.

Then I'm with Jerry. Trying to find all that equipment at a cheap price is a problem. A lot of the big farmers around here have all their old small equipment sitting around that goes cheap at sales. The trick is having a big enough tractor to pull something.

Forget an old combine. Too many parts to wear out and replace. Just hire one of your neighbors with a combine to come by on his lunch break to cut your small acreage.

By all means, go have a long talk with your county agent. He can line you out on this and probably knows where everything you need is located on some area farm. Do Not, I repeat, Do Not ask for advice from a tractor and equipment salesman as they will happen to have what they think you need in stock.

Good luck.

I have thousands of hours on a 175 ,but I would not want to pull a baler or plow with one .he needs something a little stouter like a 706 IH with a good working TA or 3010 deere .But check craigslist.com a lot or tractors there ,and find somebody that knows tractors to go with you even if you have to pay them . Will save you a lot of headaches later

I would try to find a good 560 IHC diesel or gas tractor.They are good older tractors. Both are cheep to run. I have 2 with loaders on gas burners and they always start easy too even when it is -20 outside. I did have a 560 diesel and it started too, good in the winter. It will pull up to a 4-14 plow.

I'd second a MF tractor, either a 100 series or the 200 series mentioned above. The Perkins diesels are good cold weather starters and sip fuel. MF has the best 3 pt. hitch as well. Dave

While I have developed a decided preference for my Allis Chalmers D17 and D19, I would agree that the Ford 5000 with a diesel engine would be an excellent choice for what you want to do. Just make sure you don't get one with Select-o-speed transmission. Parts for them are rare to non-existent and few people have the skill to work on them anymore.

Christopher

the one thing that I failed to see in the advice, with the exception of Leroy, and he lightly touched on it! is the adjustable wheel widths. When Leroy said what he did about cultivating crops, he was refering to row crops. I doubt that 4 wheel drive tractors wil adjust the wheel width, to allow row cropping. Could be wrong!

A 2 stage clutch and a live PTO are the same thing. An independant PTO is a different system. Dave

Some 4WD and MFWD do, some don"t. Either dishing wheels in or out, or using different mounting ribs on the rims. Op manual shows the settings available. Some can handle 30 inch rows.

these are the types of questions everyone on here loves to answer. Because it is a tractor talk forum!

Sounds like you have lots of options to choose from.
Fords: 5000, 7000, 5610, 6610 probably more than that but im not very familiar with them
Massey's: 165, 175, 180, 1080, 265, 275, 285
Olivers: 1555, 1550, 1650, 1655, 770, 880, 1600, 1700
White: 2-70, 2-60
JD: 3020, 2520, 3010, 2510, 2550, 2750, 2640 theres more but you get the picture
Allis Chalmers: D19, maybe a D17
IH/Farmall: 706, 656, 756, 666, 766.

You will want PTO and a 3 point for sure. Its better to have something too big then too small. I would suggest you have someone else do your combining. You wont need equipment very big.

good luck!

Don't waste your time with anything older than the 1960's, anything with out a 3pt or live/IPTO is a waste of time.
Yes, people did lots of work with the old tractors, but unless you want something strictly for show or fun it's really a waste of time.

I personally would not get anything older than 1980, you are more or less guaranteed a decent shifting transmission, diff lock, 3 pt hitch, remote hydraulics, diesel power, available fwa, decent loaders etc.

You can get away with 2wd and loader, but why bother when you can get a fwa the first time. My next loader tractor will be fwa, 2wd to much of a headache in the mud.

My pic is the IH/CIH 84/85/95 series and newer

I would also consider MF 200 series, Ford 10 II & 30 series and Deere 40/50/55 series utilities.

Changing rims and wheels? Is that what one has to do? That sounds like a lot of work. How do 2WD tractors do it?

Thanks!

Lewis