New Holland Skidsteer

Does anyone have a New Holland skidsteer? Been looking at all brands and sizes. Went and looked at a New Holland L185 yesterday only to find out they have a Japanese motor(Iseki)in them. Good?? Bad?? i dont know?

I personally think NH is one of the best. They build skidsteer for Deere for years before Deere got their own. Their vertical lift is very nice since skidsteers have very little reach to begin with. Some of the NH skidsteer engines are very expensive to replace(4-5K just for a long block). I run an older L785 with a perkins. The machine has been great with only minor service costs.

New Holland is the best you can get.

Since Bobcat was sold to the Koreans, I won't have one near the place.

Yes the NH super boom seems to be very well liked around here. Nothing wrong with the jap motor if you take care of it. My Ford 1720 has a jap motor Shibura or something. In 15 years it only need a glow plug. J

New Hollands and the JD branded New Hollands are not built as heavy as other brands like Bobcat, Case, Thomas, etc. They are good for lifting due to the longer wheelbase but you hardly ever see commercial contractors using them. There's reasons for this. One of them is that you sit way too low in them and can't see what the cutting edge of the bucket is doing. If look on some skid steer forums or sites, you'll see the same critisism. I know a dairy farmer that has an L775 New Holland. It's an older machine but in very good condition. He hired me to clean out is manure ramp because he didn't have a smooth bucket. He also asked me to try his NH skid steer out and see what I think. I crawled down into it. You do sit down a lot more than other machines. After running it for a while, I wouldn't buy a similar machine. The controls seemed jerky and you had to guess if the bucket was level. What makes skid steers such a fast and precision landscaping machine is being able to see exactly what the business end of the bucket is doing. Snow buckets are an exception on any skid steer. The NH doesn't allow this and limits its range compared to other machines. If all you need it for is lifting bales or cleaning a coral, that doesn't matter too much how level it is, A NH is worth considering.
There is nothing wrong with a Japanese engine. Kubota's are the engine of choice in a lot of skid steers as well as Yanmar, both Japanese. Iseki has built for other name brand tractor manufacturers and has been around for a long time. Buy a machine for it's functionality and parts availability before you start knocking it because it has a foreign engine or components. Dave

I wouldn't give any real serious consideration to anything else... You won't get the rear or side visibility in anything else to even compare to this and you won't get the stability in any other machine of the same weight/lift cap/wheelbase.
I have an Ls170 which is a size or so smaller and a generation older than the L185.
In ~4000 hours I've had no trouble with the engine or hydro parts or the loader boom for that matter. I have changed several wheel bearing sets, both motor shafts, chains, and the connecting gear/shaft between the motors and reduction case along with some welding to patch holes in the bottom/rear of the chain case. Keep in mind that this machine spends a lot of time dragging through mud and manure so that wears the bottom of the chain cases and the slime gets driven into the wheel bearings if they're not greased regularly... and these are not.
I've also had to change a couple seat belt buckles and belts as they don't last forever. This machine does seem to live the life of 'rode hard and put away wet' to the extreme. It's also full of silage most of the time...
I've also never found much need to see the cutting edge of the bucket... which is a 'dirt and foundry'. A short lip, high back bucket. I also use foot controls. Love them. See no reason to change... and I have no problem holding grade with this machine.
To each their own I guess...

The engine is not an Iseki either. It's an ISM. (Ishikawijima Shibura Machinery corp). They've supplied Ford/NH with compact tractors and engines since the early 70's. They seem to be a good engine so long as they're maintained. Also a good cold starter for an IDI (prechamber) engine.

Rod

I'm a little confused. You seem to have done a lot of other repairs to your NH in 4000 hours. Driving in mud and manure wears holes in the chain case? That certainly doesn't sound like routine wear and tear to me. Are you sure the chain wasn't loose and wore through? The chain cases must be pretty light to wear through from dragging through the mud. Try spreading and grading topsoil to meet lot grading inspectors standards. Shibura has ties to Perkins engines. I'm not saying a NH isn't a good machine for certain tasks like moving bales but I'm curious what other brands you have spent some time in? The new JD's are a heavier built machine than the old NH JD's but I find the visibilty with the flip up door and full cab really poor. I've done a lot of residential landscaping and it seems like houses are getting closer and closer together. Sometimes less than 5 ft., which I can't get into, but my Thomas T133 has excellent visibilty compared to most other machines in the same category. Bobcat 743/753 is similar, Case 1840/1845 has the loader towers in the way, NH and JD machines of the the same era and apparently newer ones too, you sit too far down in the machine to have as good of visibility. Seeing the cutting edge is important for precise work. Mustang's have pretty good visibilty but have the hyd. tank in the belly. I rented a small 3 ft. wide Mustang once. It tipped forward when I was backing up a ramp on a retaining wall. With any other machine, this wouldn't be a problem because all you had to do was lower the boom to put you back on the ground. With the hyd. tank in the belly, there was no oil available to do this and I had to crawl out with the machine tipped forward at a 45deg. angle. Pretty scary to say the least! I've tipped forward with my Thomas loading wet clay into a dump truck and it's a good thing I wasn't running a Mustang. A lot of people like Cat machines but they weren't on the market in 1994. If I bought a new machine, I'd have a harder time desiding with all the different brands available now. If I couldn't see the cutting edge, I'd look at a different machine. Big priority for me. Dave

We have a 170 and pound for pound is probably one of the best. I've ran the others, and really like this one. Strong machine, very, very minimal repairs, great lifting capacity vs. weight and starts in the dead of winter. Mine is an '04 with 1700 hrs and still has the original battery. We unload semi's of 2500# skids of ice melt. Of course this one has the extra weight kit on the back.

Yet another subject that you seem to know very little about.

Bobcats, Thomas and Case are swell machines as long as you don't have to lift anything or be able to see out of them.

Lift a pallet of sod with a Bobcat someday. While you are out picking up all the rolls that fell off because you tipped over, I will have the whole truckload unloaded. And while you are crawling along at 6 mph, I will be running at 12.

Someday when you need a real machine to get real work done, pony up the money and buy a New Holland.

About the only thing I liked our 465 for was stacking round bales. The Case and Bobcat were radius lift and didn't have the reach the NH did.

For loading trucks, I preferred the Bobcat. I could see the top of the bed through the window in the roof (763). It was also a little better in the mud. For digging or sidehill work I liked the 1845C, but it was in a whole nuther class from the other two. I could work sideways on the 45 degree bunk slope with it.

The Bobcat took a motor, the oil had broke down, looked like black water, and my uncle unplugged the oil pressure sender so he could finish cleaning the barn. I had been gone a month and checked the oil when I got back, we had got filters for it the day before and I told him to dump a gallon of oil in it to finish. But what do I know, I only figured out what the problem was on both it and the NH when the safety switch in the seats had gone bad.

The NH took a LOT of welding on the booms and boom mounts. The dealer said we were lifting too much with it and the booms weren't a problem. We finally talked to another dealer who said they were recalled and got us a new set for free, he had piles of the old ones behind the shop. It also developed a lot of electrical gremlins as it got older. It had an Italian motor in it, Motori maybe?

Yes, the chain cases are light on this machine. 3/16" at most, and hard. When you drag it through mud right up to it's belly pan, daily, for months on end, the chains cases will wear. So does the belly pan. This one wore through in an area where there was no chain contact.
I don't think the problem would be any different with a Thomas, Cat, Gehl, Case, Bobcat etc if they were doing the same job... IF they could do the job.
Likewise, the mud does the wheel bearings in if I don't grease them often enough... which generally doesn't happen because I've got to pull the wheels to grease them. So it doesn't always happen on time.
The motor shafts were changed because the bolts that retain the 'pinion shaft' to the motor shaft had their retainer/clamp bolts back out. I don't know why they backed out. Mabey they were never torqued right. I know I've got far more hours on it since with no trouble than I got before the rebuilds. It's just that the bolt fell out and the tapered spline got torn up before I took much notice of it. So... when I got rooting around in the chain case to repair that I put new chains in anyway.
The only other problems I've had were hoses. I'm after changing most of them, but that's hardly the machines fault...

I still don't see why you need to 'see' the cutting edge. I've done plenty of work in ditches and road work with this machine where I was setting grades. You just get used to not seeing the edge and develop a feel for where it is.

I've spent time in a Thomas about the same size as this one... I think a 173. You can't see a thing behind you. You can't see much beside you... and you never know what way the damn thing will tip when you have the loader in the air. You just know it's going to tip... I had that one rented for a couple days before I bought this machine.
I've used a Gehl... 6635 or something like that. It's a fair bit larger machine than mine. It seemed good but I don't like the pilot controls very much and it's still got poor visibility.
I've played with a Case 75XT. That's a solid powerfull machine.... much larger than the LS170 and no more able to lift anything because it can't keep it's wheels on the ground. It'd need a huge counterweight to be usefull... and then need to be loaded all the time or it's pop wheelies.
Last but not least... there is Cat. The biggest waste of space the skid steer market has ever seen. I didn't run one but I had to rescue one that a neighbour rented last summer. I went into the bog that he got stuck in and dragged him out with my 170...
NH superboom loaders work better because they're better balanced and lighter. The low center of gravity keeps them stable while lifting and keeps their wheels planted while driving up hills. With very few exceptions, if they're going to tip, it will be forward, and it will be at maximum lift without counterweight. tipping ahead is not a big deal if you're quick enough to drop the loader. Tipping backwards can be fatal...
Mabey that's why all the others need heavy armour on their backsides. Gives em something to roll onto...

Rod

That vertical lift on the New Holland is the best
for drilling holes. It will go straight down
without moving the skidsteer.

First off I don't need to use 42 different names on my posts. Any skid steer will tip over if you overload it. Compare apples to apples as in rated lift capacity. Funny you mention pallets of sod. A longer wheel base machine with a heavier load of sod is going to be extremely difficult to avoid severely tearing up the ground. Longer wheel base machines are better for lifting heavy objects and can go faster in transport but compare the weight to operating capacity of a NH machine versus a Bobcat for example. A lower operating capacity Bobcat will weigh more than a higher capacity NH. I have heard some people in the industry explain that a New Holland skid steer is more of a farm duty machine, while a Case, Bobcat, Mustang, Cat,new JD or Thomas is more of an industrial duty machine. This makes sense since NH is a farm machinery manufacturer. For lifting bales and cleaning corrals and such, they will do a good job. However, you don't find too many commercial operators using them in construction type applications because they have had structural problems in the frames and booms. It's like the difference between a farm tractor with a loader and an industrial tractor with a loader. A farm loader will do a lot of work but start using it like an industrial loader and you'll have problems sooner, rather than later.
As far as tipping a skid steer, I can pick up the bucket and spin donuts with the back of the machine on the ground, with little fear of tipping over. Tipping forward, which I've done a couple times, is a scary experience and you better have your wits about you. Usually you'll only tip with the bucket over highway up and if you suddenly lower the boom in a hurry, you'll be knocked around pretty good and could even be catapulted out of the machine. That's why seat bars are a good idea in addition to seat belts.
Everyone is open to their opinions on skid steers but when someone asks about them, I think it's good to let them have as much info as possible on the differences between machines as well as the pro's and con's of each type. I have a Thomas T133, which is a smaller frame than the 173's and up, and it has very good visiblity and maneuvarabilty which is important for landscaping and work in tight quarters. It's not a perfect machine and I've had to do some repairs on it but overall it's been a very good machine. Thomas' come with a 5 year main frame warranty and I've never heard of one ever needing the frame repaired or welded. I've seen some booms get twisted and problems from people not greasing them but I think all skid steers are subject to extreme abuse in the hands of poor operators. Like I said previously, if I had to buy a new machine, it would be a tough choice. I don't think I'd buy a Thomas again. Not because I wasn't happy with the one I have but because Thomas has changed hands a couple of times and their dealer support and service has gone way downhill. I want a machine with good parts support and experienced people to help me when I've got a problem. Dave

I,ve been running nothing but Gehl shid loaders since 1977 and have never replaced a wheel bearing in those 32 years of use . Some of them having as much as 9000 hrs on them.Have never had to take a welder to them,and the visibility is much better than sitting down in a hole like you do in a New Holland.

A Gehl is a fine machine for pushing cowshitt around the pasture. You don't have to get too close to anything out there and you don't need to be very accurate.

I have about 5000 hours on my current New Holland loader. Never replaced a wheel bearing on it either.
The bucket sticks out far enough so I can see exactly where it is at all times. And I have no idea what this "hole" you guys talk about is supposed to mean.

Well everyone I went ahead and bought the New Holland! Its a used 2008 L185 with only 75hrs that was leased by the local college. They had a brand new Case 450 there and when I sat in it I could NOT see the cutting edge! In the New Holland you do sit a bit lower in the machine but I could still see the cutting edge. However I could not see the left and right ends of the bucket due to the very large lifting arms. I hope this machine will last us for a very long time, it has been a long awaited addition to the farm. Thanks for everyones input and I hope I didn't get to many hairs bristled up.

I'd love to know what hole this is as well?
My NH is low, but it's a smaller frame machine that will go through a roughly 6' high opening. I don't find that I sit any lower in this loader than I would in any competitive loader in the same class. The 6635 Gehl that I ran... sure I sat a lot higher. It's also a lot larger loader.

Wheel bearing can last forever too if they get greased daily, never get submerged in slop/water or never do anything...
There's also lots of guys around that rave about never having done any repairs on their 150 hp tractor that never did more than 50 hp worth of work in it's life. That 100K in depreciation would have bought a lot of parts on a 50 hp tractor over it's life... not to mention the fuel wasted on the 150 hp tractor. The same principle can be applied to skid steers.

Rod

I've sat in older NH's/JD's and you do sit down into them. Maybe the new ones are a little higher? As far as wheel bearings go, aren't they supposed to be lubricated by the chain case oil? Axle seals are commonly taken out by baler twine and that causes them to leak. I put a speedy sleeve on one axle because there was a very slight groove in the axle and I didn't want it to leak. People looking at a skid steer shouldn't limit their choices to one machine. There's lot of things to consider, including what you're intended use is. I have no doubt that NH's work wonders for their owners but to say they are the best is a matter of opinion. If you were to ask commercial users, very few of them run NH's. They have been known to require welding repairs on their frames and booms. One poster even said a dealer had a stack of old booms behind his shop. The older JD's were sourced from NH and now JD supposedly makes their own. You see a lot more new JD's on construction sites now. Could they be built a little more heavy duty? Most NH equipment is made with ligher gauge formed steel rather than using heavy steel box sections and plate. My machine has some good sized pieces of 1/2" thick steel in the frame. You won't find that on a NH. It never hurts to compare different machines but you need to compare apples to apples. Even then, there is no perfect skid steer. Dave

I think the main reason you see so many Nh machines on farms is because farmers tend to deal at farm equipment dealers... so NH, Deere and Gehl are or were readily available in that market.
NH's were quite popular for industrial work down here because our dealer was also an industrial supplier. Lots of contractors were familiar with him and in the yard all the time... so the machines were there and he sold a bunch of them.
There's still quite a bunch around even tho the dealer is gone 5 years or more now and some contractors make a point of buying NH skid steers. I don't think it's because they're cheaper or inferior.
I know if I was buying another I'd go to a NH dealer that I'm familiar with before I'd go searching at ALPA or Liftow for something else, even if they had what I wanted...

As far as tipping goes... I'd much rather tip forward with a load. You can always drop the bucket or thrust the levers ahead to come out of it. If you're going backwards... you're pretty much at the mercy of Mr. Newton and his laws. I've stood this one on it's back door a few times when it was newer while backing downhill empty. I'll take a forward plunge over that any day... The last incident I remember clearly... leaning ahead as far as the belt would let me while driving the boom down, just to move the balance point ahead that little bit while the machine balanced between it's rear wheels and it's duck arse...

Rod

The inner bearings on this machine are oil lube from the case. The outers are grease lubricated and sealed FROM the inners. The way these are set up, twine never gets at the seal. The seal is actually fastened to the shaft and the wear liner is fixed to the axle housing. It's just a matter of not getting enough lube... then the outer bearing starts getting slack, then the minimal preload is gone... and when that's gone a tapered bearing is not long for the world.
From speaking with the dealer pars manager... I seem to be the only one who has these problems. I'm about the only one that ever needs axle repair kits anyhow as he doesn't move enough of them to bother stocking them...
I've often toyed with putting grease tubes on so I don't have to pull the wheels to grease the bearings but always worried about the chains ripping the tubes off. Catch 22...

Re: Frame cracks. I've seen cracking in the first gen booms on the 'old' L series machines. The Lx series had a vastly heavier boom with a better design. Granted I haven't looked at a lot of any of them, I haven't seen any cracking in the Lx or the LS yet. Certainly mine has no cracks... and if there was one that should crack, this would be the one.
I would tend to think that this boom will probably outlast a lot of others because it has quite large bearing points on all of it's pivots. There's a lot of area to wear. Conventional booms have smaller pin areas that can wear more quickly. I used to worry about all the moving parts in this boom, but aside from the bucket/adapter plate the main boom is as tight today as it ever was...
It's certainly got far less wear in 4000 hours than the very conventional loader arms on our loader tractor... with the same hours. The tractor loader has had just about every buching rewelded back into the arms, the arms welded several times, etc. So I'm not terribly sold on 'conventional' loader arms any more.

Rod

Some of the big Cat crawler loaders use a kind of bushing like a lubed track pin for all the pivots. That would be a great idea on a skid steer. No need to lube and would last a long time. I think a lot of loaders on tractors don't get greased enough. I had to get new bucket pins and bushings on my skid steer at 2800 hours and greased it pretty regularly. The place that did it said I did pretty good. They've had some that were worn out at less than 500 hours. I have a friend who bought a newer machine like mine and just abused the crap out of it and he admits it. His bucket pins broke and the bushings are completely gone and he even had to drill and put bigger bolts in the lift cylinder pins because he never greased them and they seized. His machine is a 98 and at the time had less than 400 hours. My machine is a 94 with about 3800 hours and I'd take it over his any day. His starts easier because it has a direct injection engine though but even the foot pedals are really stiff. I can't understand how some people just don't understand proper maintenance or how important it is to grease a machine. In his case it's funny because he owned a successful auto repair business for quite a few years. I think pin and bushing wear makes a difference with how the pin is held. On some loaders the pin is only retained by a snap ring or cotter pin and is allowed to turn as the boom or bucket moves. I think this wears things out faster. Dave

Maintenance is mostly habit. I've got some bad habits in that regard as well. It's kinda a catch 22 some days. It's easy enough to run over the loader with a grease gun, but when you get a machine that HAS to run sporadically throughout the day, every day for months on end it can get difficult to find time to do other things.
I get leary of pulling wheels through the winter because I'm tired of working in a snowbank... and you break a bunch of studs off, then you go to town for parts and next thing you know a 20 minute job turned into an all day affair.
It's not a big deal if there's a backup machine around.... but I've had days where that was laid up, or sometimes months where it was laid up or away from home, etc.
That's the worst thing about any machine around a farm that's used in caring for animals... then as you say, there's times people just don't look after stuff too. I think we all have a bit of that in us.

Cat or Berco SALT track chains are good to a point too... but many a chain died before it's time because the seals failed. We changed a set at ~2500 hours or so because of that. In some applications they last a long time and in others they last a very short time. depends on how much twisting the chain gets. Rock work is hard on chain...

Rod

I should have been clearer on the pivots. I meant the track loaders use a similar type of pin to a SALT undercarriage for the bucket pivot pins. Bucket pivots on skid steers, especially, are low and often working in the dirt. As far as undercarrige, I've heard that corral cleaning companies using track loaders will go through a set of tracks every year because the manure and stuff is very acidic and eats away the metal. A lot of them are going to rubber tire loaders or excavators because of this. Dave

OK, I see what you mean about the pins.
NH put felt type grease seals on the bucket pins of the LS machines. Claimed a 50 hour grease interval....
'Claimed' being the operative word. Seals are long gone on this old doll along with a lot of pin material.
Do they seem to work on the track loaders?
The only other thing that seems to work half decent is the cat pins in cast steel housings. Those pins are as hard as the hobbs of hell... but I know for a dry pin they seem to last a long time on our dozer.

Rod

Thick rubber O-rings are used a lot too on everything from Bobcats, track loaders and excavators. On excavators they help a lot to keep dirt from getting into the pin and bushing area, but the bucket pivot of on an excavator isn't usually right in the ground. They mostly just get spill over after loading the bucket. It would be interesting to see a real world test of different types of grease and pivot point designs to see if one is superior over the others. Replaceable hard bushings are a good idea but not every machine has them. A worn out pin is easy to replace, cutting the old bushings out and welding new ones on is a lot of work. Dave

I generally run an EP2 Moly on the pins and bushings in warmer weather. Once it gets colder it's too hard to work with so I switch back to an EP2 lithium.
I wouldn't call it a cure, but it helps.

Rod