Neighbors Fence Lines(long)

Flurette Farm · Dec 15, 2009

My neighbor who appears to be a decent fellow as long as you agree with him but, got into some trouble with the Forestry because when he had a logger log his place he told them where he thought the boundary lines were. Unfortunately for him because of his attitude the Forestry surveyed their property lines and found he had logged 60+ feet across 60 acres of their land. Also his house was setting partially on their land. They made him buy the 60x1980 feet at 3700 an acre or face other charges. He bought the land.
He then told me that they had taken 60 feet of his land on that side so he would be taking 60 feet off of me. I told him before he could do that he should have it surveyed and what is, is what is. He said he wanted to put up a new fence and it would probably be in my hayfield. I told him why pay for the survey just use the old fence line and go ahead.
Next thing I know the surveyor is here. Now its completed and the survey shows his line almost 80 feet back onto him from the old supposed property line. Now he wants to claim adverse position to the old fence line and build on the old fence line.
The surveyor is a county certified surveyor and has registered the lines with the county.
All of this land was owned by the same person at one time and I supposed just stepped off his fence lines, many of which were split rail and partially still in tact.
Have any of you guys run into something like this and how did you handle it? I want to be a good neighbor.

sotxbill · Dec 15, 2009

tell him he can have it at the wonderful price of $3700 an acre. The govmt didnt fall for adverse possesion. He has shown disreguard for his original rights. Either way you better get a lawyer. Also you can charge him for back taxes you paid on property hes been a using and ask him where your back rent money is.

Anonymous-0 · Dec 15, 2009

I would say he named his own medicine. Go with the 80 feet off his side.

thurlow · Dec 15, 2009

Señor Nordoff has addressed this numerous times; maybe he'll chime in onct again.

montana griz · Dec 15, 2009

doesn"t sound like to good of a neighbor if he"s trying to take your 60". I would tell him to go ahead and move his fence line.....BACK 80"

Dblair · Dec 15, 2009

in Va. there are no adverse possession rights on boundary line disputes . may be different in your state.

MarkB_MI · Dec 15, 2009

The guy sounds both stupid and greedy. If he wasn't, he would have realized that if one of his property lines was off by sixty feet, they probably all are, and not necessarily in the same direction.

This is one of those cases where it would be best to retain local counsel. Preferably as soon as possible, so you can hire the best lawyer in town before your neighbor does.

Anonymous-0 · Dec 15, 2009

Interesting story but really confusing. You call this guy a decent fellow? So he starts out by logging 60' onto his neighbor and gets caught. He has to buy the land he logged (guess he got to keep the timber revenue?). He ends up having to buy that land, but then he says he says he wants to take 60' from you because he had land taken from him? What did that deal have to do with you? Then you told him to just move his fence onto your land using the old fence as a go-by? But he has a survey done and found that what he thought was his is really yours, but he's going to claim it as adverse posession? Don't know why he would go to that trouble, you were already just going to give him a bunch of your land anyway.
I must really be missing something here. Didn't anyone do a survey when they bought their land? Only advice I can give is to not let this guy close to your wife.

Uncle Ernie · Dec 15, 2009

Survey says.... and its His Surveyor. I guarentee if the surveyor had found the line to be over onto your property, the new fence would already be up on the new line. Offer to pay for half the fence on the new line, 80 ft his way . That would be being a good neighbor. Good fences make good neighbors.

buickanddeere · Dec 15, 2009

He didn't learn the first time a survey line was checked. Looks like he didn't learn the 2nd time either.
Time to walk and talk cautiously around that ticking time bomb.
Generally the people who say the least avoid most of the trouble.

mike321 · Dec 15, 2009

What state are you in? I know the law varies from state to state. In Wisconsin, if a fence has been there for a min of 20 years, it cant be moved>

super99 · Dec 15, 2009

Sounds to me like you should build the fence yourself, where HIS surveyor said the line is. Chris

Steve A W · Dec 15, 2009

You might want to survey the rest of your property?

old · Dec 15, 2009

Sounds like it is time to talk to a lawyer so as to find out what the law says about it. I know in a lot of places if the fence has been there 10 plus years it is in fact the line unless agreed by both people or it can not be moved no matter who come out ahead

Flurette Farm · Dec 15, 2009

Thanks for all you enlightening comments. The state is Missouri and the court will back adverse property rights after 10 years.
That being said I'm afraid he may have stepped on his crank when he asked a county certified surveyor to establish his property line who in turn filed those with the county.
I think as someone mentioned I'll just offer to pay for half the new fence based on the surveyors line and see what reaction I get.
As I said he's okay as long as he's beside you with his hand in your pocket.

Anonymous-0 · Dec 15, 2009

Check out this adverse possession law first, would it apply if it was wrongly surveyed, why should you suffer because of a surveying error.,
A lawyer would be your best bet.
The house is incorrectly situated, the fence line is out. I would be getting my place resurveyed.

Janicholson · Dec 15, 2009

A split up farm is not divided by convenience fences (laid out by farmers to divide pastures and such. Sometimes on a real property line, and sometimes just where it was easy to put posts. I had a convenience fence in Montana on a boundary with a neighbor. It was also abutting a section corner The fence was 5 feet on my side on one end, and 8 feet on his side on the other and 440 feet long. We were aware that the real line is where the pins are, but would never believe adverse possession necessary because of the fence. If there are no pins, and if the fence was never part of a survey or pin placement, (probably not, as 80 feet is beyond bad survey)
The survey done by a county licensed surveyor must stand. (Opinion) JimN

GeneMO · Dec 15, 2009

He sounds like a snake in the grass to me and I wouldn't give him the time of day. Looks like he started it, and you can bet your sweet bippy, that had the survey gone the other way he would have been fine with it.

Nice guy as long as he is the one getting all the breaks. Stick it to him! 9 chances out of 10 he will end up mad at you over something else later on down the road, if you are nice to him this time. Might as well get it over with and pi$$ him off right now.

Gene

Hey, wait, I'm in MO. You're not my neighbor are you? Ha Ha!

Gene

Flurette Farm · Dec 15, 2009

You are of course right and if you both are reasonable fellows that will work.
I fully expect him to move the survey markers before he thinks I've seen them however he isn't familiar with "witness tree" markers or know where the suryeyor placed them. I've taken pictures of the stakes and included the "witness tree". Here in Missouri it is against the law the cut, kill, remove or damage a witness tree or its tag when used.

glennster · Dec 15, 2009

gene, dont be a sneekin round at nite movin the pins!!!!

Anonymous-0 · Dec 15, 2009

If you hire 3 different surveyors, you'll get 3 different lines. Don't ask me how, but trust me, I've been through it. You would think something like that would be so simple, but my experience with surveyors seem they have about a 30% accuracy rate, on a good day.

VaTom · Dec 15, 2009

D, you might want to look into that. Adverse possession is alive and well here as elsewhere. In Va, the time line is usually 15 yrs. If permission is granted, hostile or "open and notorious" doesn't come into play. You are not relieved of knowing where your property line lies, and protecting it.

Take a peek: http://law.jrank.org/pages/11865/Adverse-Possession.html

RodinNS · Dec 15, 2009

I think getting a lawyer would be prudent at this point. From your description this doesn't sound as though it's going to end well...

Some other things to consider also... a surveyor's opinion or line is not the word of god. It's simply his opinion. Others may vary.

Fince lines are also not always on 'the line'. We've got a LOT of them like that around here. I'd also consider the possibility that this guy fully believes himself to be in the right. If he built a house on this piece of land he probably thought he owned it as opposed to thinking he stole it...
...and if it's anything like the lines around here... there were grant sheets that show what should be, then there were land grants... then there were pieces of land cleared. Then when the grants were actually issued the surveys were done proving SOME of the lines on th ground. Some were estimated by their surroundings. We've got some of them too... and when you go in today with GPS equipment... well you might just find something entirely different than what you thought you had. A few years back we got involved in a county line dispute where the county line was jogged off by 5 chains through errors.
Sometimes it works out for you. Sometimes not...
So, cut the guy some slack. You might just have some more success if you want to try and get to the bottom of the issue. Mabey you'll find you don't have what you think you have either... so until you walk a mile or two in his boots, you might want to be carefull. Next week, it might be you.

Rod

Anonymous-0 · Dec 15, 2009

I too am having difficulty with a neighbor who has tried to open a business, using access through my property. In Arkansas, adverse posession is binding after only 7 years (in Louisiana, its 30 years) and that can be from different users, their time of use or posession can be "tacked" together to constitute 7 years. Land that you have paid for can be wrenched from you, while an unpaid for access is binding forever.

ncpapaul · Dec 15, 2009

With the new GPS surveys, a lot of property lines are being moved around here in Mississippi. Mine didn't move much, some loss, some gain, mostly 6-8 feet either way. I am wondering if you take 3 surveyors, all with GPS, would you come up with 3 different sets of lines? Like before. Paul

John T Country Lawyer · Dec 15, 2009

Im an attorney but SORRY NO HELP, ITS BEYOND WHAT CAN BE DONE HERE;;;;;;;;;;;;;

I have addressed these type questions several times on here ANY MY ADVICE MUST ONCE AGAIN REMAIN TO HIRE A LOCAL ATTORNEY FAMILIAR WITH REAL ESTATE AND ADVERSE POSESSION LAW IN YOUR AREA.

This IS NOT something that can be answered or explained on here unless (by an attorney let alone a lay person) until allllll the facts are known and then the law of your state, both codified as well as commom law, have been researched and after that, even if an attorney such a myself says something ITS ONLY AN OPINION albeit a professional one... Theres simply nothing I can say or do that has any affect on your legal boundary.

Similar, unless its a statutory "legal survey" such as Indiana has and subject to all its requirements, what a surveyor says IS ONLY AN EXPERT OPINION. The Law, NOT surveyors, determines legal property lines in dispute cases

YES the doctine of "Adverse Posession" is alive and well and can cause a prior boundary to become located on what was previously property of another person, BUT ITS TOO COMPLEX TO EXPLAIN HERE....

HIRE AN ATTORNEY BEFOREEEEEEEEEEEE A SURVEYOR IS MY ADVICE, Maybe your state has a "legal survey" statute and theres no use in expending a bunch of survey fees that could be of little value in litigation. Let a court decide and order a survey perhaps so it will have some legal consequences.

Sorry to sound so negative or cynical and theres absolutely no use in trying to help here on a tractor board with something thats very complicated that requires a knowledge of law and the facts to render a competent opinion.

Sorry if I come across negative but Im trying to give you advice thats in your own best interest.

God Bless and good luck

John T

Anonymous-0 · Dec 15, 2009

How'd he ever build his house if it's on the neighbors property? I think a court would wonder why he's claiming adverse possesion now. Did he have a logging permit to begin with? How come he didn't claim adverse possesion with the forestry? Does he think it will be easier to do with you? I think he could be in a real heap of trouble before you even have to deal with him. His survey went against him. Sucks to be him! Dave

JMOR · Dec 15, 2009

(quoted from post at 00:28:30 12/16/09) With the new GPS surveys, a lot of property lines are being moved around here in Mississippi. Mine didn't move much, some loss, some gain, mostly 6-8 feet either way. I am wondering if you take 3 surveyors, all with GPS, would you come up with 3 different sets of lines? Like before. Paul

I have in recent years paid a bunch to a fine lawyer & spent way too much time in court over a boundary dispute. Experience tells me that the layman is generally wrong in what he thinks the meaning of 'adverse possession' actually is legally defined as. The points are very fine. You are more or less wasting your time collecting opinions here. You need a lawyer , specializing in land matters as they apply in your state. They vary immensely, and I don't mean just in the time period.

paul · Dec 15, 2009

If you accepted the fence line where it is, and really had no dispute over that, I guess I wouldn't dig too deeply, and just let that old fence line be the border line as I always thought it should be.

I may be inclined to ask a favor or 2 of the neighbor just for being a jerk.

Maybe I'd prepose splitting the difference with him first, and putting the line down the middle. Save all the lawyers fees. That way he doesn't lose as much, you gain a little over what you thought you had, and no one totally loses or totally wins? But that's only because he was kinda a jerk about it. Mostly I trhink I'd end up with the proerty line where I thought it was - by the old fence line.

To get somewhere, you need to sit down with a lawyer - who owned what for how long, what is the paper trail on the varoius deeds, who controlled & used what property - again for how long. And on and on.

--->Paul

Nancy Howell · Dec 15, 2009

Always enjoy your replies. I learn a lot and the advice is always good. Thanks.

Walterdavies · Dec 16, 2009

Tell him where to go and put up a fence on the survey line. Let him take you to court. Cost a lot less and makes one think a lot about what he wants when they have to put up money for a lawyer.
Walt

Anonymous-0 · Dec 16, 2009

(quoted from post at 23:05:28 12/15/09) Tell him where to go and put up a fence on the survey line. Let him take you to court. Cost a lot less and makes one think a lot about what he wants when they have to put up money for a lawyer.
Walt

Just say it politely. Then you'll have satisfied your desire to be a good neighbor....

My people skills are getting better every day :roll:
Sunds like the guy needs to walk the line with you and slip and fall real hard a few times before he gets home....

Dave

schmuck · Dec 16, 2009

It would appear you have dealt with / observed this guy long enough to decide what makes him tick. You therefore already have all the information you need. I have no doubt it won't be easy, but go do what you already know you have to do, or regret it forever. Your choice, and best of luck, whatever you do.

RBnSC · Dec 16, 2009

Take him for a walk down the property line when you get to the farthest most obscure spot get right in his face look him dead in the eye and ask him "If He were to go missing would anybody notice?"
Ron

Gun guru · Dec 16, 2009

I would tell him that the property line is the property line and it is what holds true for all things, like selling the land, ownership, etc.

Say it nice and tell him thats the way it is.

Did this guy deliberately build his home on the land that was not his? (how much land does he own?)

I have a neighbor that has taken it upon himself to "take care of" land that is not his, about 1 acre of a corn field that has a low spot in it for drainage and he dug a drainage ditch threw this corn field and uses that 1 acre land for his use, like riding ATVs, landscaping etc. The real owner of this land lives out of state so he doesnt know. But I would be super *issed off if it was me.
Sometimes being up front and direct (and kind of a *ickhead) is the way to go.

Nolan · Dec 16, 2009

A letter from you to him negates his attempts to claim adverse posession.

BUT...
That letter has to state that you are not relinquishing the land to him.
It must be sent before he files court papers.

No need for the letter to be nasty. Just clear. State that property line is what it is, and that while you have allowed him use of your land, you are not relinquishing ownership of that land.

El Toro · Dec 16, 2009

I would drive a metal rod deep into the ground where those markers are to prevent him from moving them. Hal

John T · Dec 16, 2009

Youre welcome, I felt bad, that was late last night but I sincerely believe (even as much as some hate lawyers lol) the time just comes when theres a lot at risk that people should seek professional help instead of tractor boards on such complicated subjects. Still Im glad to help any if I can, but when boundary disputes and adverse possession and peoples property rights are at risk Id prefer they seek local counsel.....

God Bless yall n Merry Christmas

John T Country Lawyer

Kevin Schmidt · Dec 16, 2009

I would definatly put a new fence on the survey line.

Good fences make good nieghbors, especially if they are in the right spot.

One thing no one else touched on is if either one of you has a mortgage or if either one of you sells your property. Banks want a proper survey. Lines need to be in the proper spot.

I wouldn"t offer to sell the 80ft to him, even at 3700 an acre (which around here isn"t squat), then it just looks like you are greedy and want $$$

Don"t feel bad if your nieghbor gets upset if it isn"t in his interest, you need to look out for yours. This is America, and so far we can still own property

Get a local, sharp lawyer, even if it is just for consultation

Flurette Farm · Dec 16, 2009

1st of all I want to thank everyone for their opinions. A couple of things I didn’t make clear. He didn’t build his house on forestry property it was there when he bought the place. Had he not logged the forestry property there would never have been anything said. There are no loans against either property and he only borders me for what is now 1980 feet. With the forestry there is no such thing as adverse possession. They go strictly by the survey lines. His surveyor is the same one who did the survey for the Government and is highly regarded by both the forestry and the county. Doesn’t mean he is infallible it just means they will more readily accept his conclusions.
I don’t know that we will have a problem. He may quickly back off. It is not my desire to encroach on anyone and I certainly didn’t expect the property line to shift back onto him. He obviously didn’t either. The only thing that would upset me is after all this he tried to move the survey lines.

El Toro · Dec 16, 2009

He could probably be proscuted for doing that.
Hal
Drive long pipes down deep so he would need to use a bucket on a tractor to remove them. Hal

Mike (WA) · Dec 16, 2009

In Washington, we have the doctrine of Mutual Acquiescence to a boundary line- if a fenceline has been treated as the boundary by both parties (or their predecessors) for at least 10 years, it becomes the boundary. If you built a new fence on the line, you would also have to remove it, and pay your lawyer handsomely for the education.

I wish guys would quit asking boundary line questions on here- 90% of the advice is bad, and since laws vary from state to state, even if someone knows what they're talking about, it may be useless in the poster's state.

Mike (WA) · Dec 16, 2009

BTW, I forgot to mention my other pet peeve- posters with these questions NEVER mention their state- so on the off chance there could be someone who knew what they were talking about, we can't even get that far without knowing the jurisdiction.

Boundary line law is a creature of "common law" (case law) rather than statutes, for the most part- so the answer to questions will depend on how the "common law" has evolved over the years through decisions of actual cases. And it evolves differently in each state.

End of rant, 'til next time.

olgentdc · Dec 16, 2009

YES ,, 3 surveyors could only set a corner within 39 ft of one another for me .. WHAT A WASTE . fighting richDIX Lawyers that Could defend the devil in Jesus Christs court regardles of what is RIGHT .. MORE WASTE OF $$$$, for me there are no answers that are correct that everyone is willing to agree to ...

GordoSD · Dec 17, 2009

Are you willing to give away almost 4 acres of land?

Gordo

Neighbors Fence Lines(long)

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