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O.T. Snowmobiles on property

C

CB in central NY

Member
A few days ago I was approached by the local snowmobile club. Apparently, they were looking for a new route and my farm fit the bill. Prior to that, a neighbor farmer was letting them use an old railbed through his property. I called him and he said that he didn't want the snowmobilers on the property any longer since the snowmobile clubs are subsidized by the state and the land owner cannot even get a tax break. He was also concerned about lawsuits in case someone gets hurt. He said that even though the club carries insurance, the landowner could get dragged in to the lawsuit.

Later in the day I met with the acting club president who seemed like a decent fellow. We looked at the proposed route (part of a woods road which I also use for logging). He said that they would actually upgrade the road somewhat, put in a culvert, and chunk up the few trees they would want to remove. We identified the actual trees, mostly small stuff.

I then asked the acting president about liability insurance. He said that the club is subsidized by the state and carries its own insurance. In fact, he said, the individual owner can be added to the policy. Regardless, he said that even if someone gets hurt on your property, their insurance would take care of any claims.

What do you folks think? I know I am not getting a legal consultation here, but I would like to know if anyone has had similar situations, and the pros and cons. Thanks in advance for your help.
 
Well... he sounds like a decent guy and it sounds like there are some benefits for you, but I would still see if they would sign a general waiver or liability. Get something in writing. What does your insurance company say? You may want to see if they have any recommendations.
 
Do as John S-B suggested to be on the safe side. Its too late to lock the barn door after the horses are out. Hal
 
Most states have a special law that protects the landowner. The only exception is if you were to maliciously try to harm the snowmobilers, or if your land was being used commercially as a recreation site and you were making money off the trail. I know that is how Wisconsin and some other states do it. Its the only way to get the trails allowed on private property.
 
The problem comes about when the Club Prez doesn't convey the rules and regs over to all the riders on how and how not to use your property. If "club" members bring friends and "guests" then may not follow rules and then you have to contend with drink bottles,and riding where you dont want landscape disturbed etc. I have tried to allow others to use property and it has just never worked. Winds up being people there that have no busines there. The respect for what belongs to someone else is just not out there any more. Hope you dont have something else to have to worry about.
 
I've never had any positive interaction with snowmobilers as a group. Some individuals are fine, but others are people I would hate to have on my property. I'd think carefully about it before I let them in if I were you.
Zach
 
The fact that they came to you before just using the trail speaks volumes! They sound like a very responsible club, not just some buddies who figure they can go where ever they want. They're even willing to upgrade the trail which also benefits you. It is getting harder and harder to find places to ride off road vehicles. This may be why they are subsidized. If you're not charging them, makes it extremely hard for them to sue you. I think you should get a document written up explaining everything in detail and have a lawyer take a look at it just to make sure. Put signs up that the trail is for club members only. It sounds like it's a good deal for both of you. Most people get jealous when someone else gets a handout and they don't. Most of these types of clubs are non profit and that's why they qualify for subsidy. If you have any problems, you know exactly who to go to. Put in a clause that the arrangement can be terminated if there are any problems. I think it's a good deal for you and the club sounds very responsible. Dave
 
I should add that according to your post, the only problem your neighbor had was that the club was subsidized. There was no mention of any problems the snowmobilers caused. Dave
 
Having been a snowmobiler for years, a member of a club, speaking with land owners for permission,(one older lady wanted snowmobilers to keep strangers away, another asked us to move to trail, but still on his property so his buffalo wouldn't stamped the fence), I mapped the trails, and had a map printed. We cleared trails, and groomed during the winter. The clubs gernerally won't open trails until deer season is over and there is enough snow cover. As far as substidies to the club are concerned, the registration fee has increased 5 fold in the past few years, with higher rates if registrants are not a member of a club.
 
most of the clubs are good about things and police themselves rather well. The issue about who is liable in a lawsuit is your real issue. I think N.Y. is one of the states that has not yet passed laws freeing the landowner of liability should someone decide to sue over and accident. If it were me I would say "no thanks"

I just talked to a woman here at work who is associated with one of the locla clubs. She says there is a law not specific to snowmobiles that states that as long as you are not charging for access then you are not accountable snowmobile accidents on your property. She did state that when an accident does occur and they sue the landowner their insurance company lawyer steps in to handle it. She said insurance payouts are rare in any of their lwasuits as accidnets are usually due to alcohol, drugs or other preventable issues on the part of the snowmobile operator. I still stand by my original statement "no thanks" anytime lawyers are involved anyone can become financialy accountable unless there is a SPECIFIC law that says otherwise.

As always this is just my opinion, actual reality may be different
 
Do call your insurance company - had hunting club wanting to lease our land to hunt, they had their own insurance. Our insurance company want to raise our rates and increase coverage limits - if someone gets hurt you will get sued was insurance companies response. The way everyone is sue happy we denied access.
 
i"ll toss in my opinion for what its worth. if they came to me, i would say NO. i dont allow anyone access to my farm. one bad apple can spoil the bunch. if the snowmoble"ers want a place to ride, let them buy land like i did. same with hunters or atv"ers, or whom ever. i refuse to risk my investment and hard earned money for some one elses recreation. i have seen more bad than good come out of situations like this.
 
the local club approached me exactly as you describe....i agreed to allow snowmobiles from 12-1 until 4-1 of each year..club members were all smiles..however the trail through my property also became a trail for pick ups, 4 wheelers, dune buggies and it wasnt long before the trail was littered with trash. the snowmobile club wouldn't/couldn't control their crowd..after two years of this abuse of my land i refused their access... the club members are very mad at me..it was a very distasteful experience..then i had to put up gates and waste my time to keep them out.
 
I was faced with that - trail across the farm fields.

It was in my field of vision - basically downhill from my house, out the front windw of the house.

I just had to end up saying no. That just seemed like an invasion of my privacy.

As well I let my cattle graze cornstalks with only 1 wire holding them in, seemd like my wire & cattle & snowmobiles was just a bd combination.

I felt real bad, still do, as I don't mind snowmobilers, they use the road ditchs past my place anyhow. No real problem. Once in a while I get one cutting through the farm. No biggie.

It just bugged me too much to have my view of my kingdom cut up with a trail through it for 1/2 the year. I don't think I could quite express that right to make it make sense, but - it just bugged me too much.

--->Paul
 
If you have single strand electric or barbed wire fence on it...no. In fact put up signs saying there is wire that can hurt or kill.
I had a nephew killed when he ran into a barbed wire fence at neck level running full bore.
And that's all I am gonna say bout that.
 
I stopped the snowmobile club from crossing our farm for two reasons. First reason was very few on the snowmobile riders were local contry folk , mostly city pepole that don"t understand/or value agirculture and our animal practices. Also#2 I understand that in England that what had started out as a good natured and friendly jesture by farmers to allow nofarmers to put walking trails thru thier farms,has become a disaster for the farmers, and livestock men in praticular. It seems that what was allowed on a friendly base , was made into law that hikers have the right of way. Several pepole have been attacked by mama cows when hikers bring thier dogs along. So first it is snowmobiles then atv ,and soon a walking trail,almost makes you want to go hug a tree. And remember if any of these folk ever buy a rual property, they are the first ones to put up the no hunting no tresspassing signs.
 
Tell the snowmobile guys to cram it. Basically do you really think that these guys will respect your land? And if someone were to get hurt they WILL sue you if they are in pain. (for the money of course, it is all about the money.)
 
2nd post..my property was scrutnized very closely by local dnr officers for a couple of years after i refused the club access..i tried to be a good cooperative property owner but it was a disaster. just saying 'no thanks' would have saved me a lot of frustration...
 
Look into why the previous farmer finally said "No".

I bet there's a lot more to the story than what he admitted.
 
There are no snowmobiles within hundreds........maybe thousands.......of miles of here, but I've dealt with 4-wheelers, hikers, hunters, fisherpersons, trespassers, wood cutters and those 'I was just looking around, I wasn't hurtin nuthin' types for almost 5 decades. Things have changed....for the worse........ within the last 25 or 30 years; nobody except immediate family is welcome for any of the above. Unrelated to your question, but the last straw for me was when I went to cut my last field of beans one year; field road went thru a small thicket and field couldn't be seen from the road; there was a Jeep setting out in the field; fellow I didn't know had some gal with him (she had pulled her coat over her head so I couldn't see her face); got down and walked over and asked what he was doing in my soybean field; said he wasn't hurting anything; asked who he was and he wouldn't say; walked around back to get his plate number and he cranked up and left. I had the road blocked, so he finally picked his way through the woods. I wished I had just driven up and let the reel tear into his rag top. Since then, nobody's welcome.
 
I wouldn't want the hassle. And it will be a hassle at some point. Snowmobiling here is another term for lets get drunk and act stupid. You will regret it.
 
I hear that. I used to work with a guy that used to drive from bar to bar and drink beer, while riding his sled.
 
OK, I'm a VP of a club in Maine so maybe I can help you out here.

First off don't let people compare snowmobiles to ATVs. Snowmobiles are a near zero impact vehicle. They ride on packed snow and even if they touch the ground it should be frozen by the time the trails are opened. I can only speak for Maine but here Snowmobile clubs are very well organized groups with a state wide association. The ATV clubs have not had anywhere near the success but that may change from state to state.

Liability. If NY is like Maine and I suspect it is, you are covered. Here they have a law that says if you are "playing" on someone else property the landowner is not liable if you injure your self. Pretty much if you get sued the state steps in on your behalf. I know in Maine, where we have A LOT of snowmobiles, the state has never lost a case, ever.

Now the subsidizes part, I know nothing about NY. Here in Maine clubs get money back but that's mostly from registrations. We also get money back from the town from their cut of the registrations. I'm not sure if I would call that a subsidies, to me it's more maintaining the system with it's own dollars. Snowmobilers bring in tourists, something that's good for the state so it's in their best interest to help the clubs out.

Our clubs here in Maine are great. We do a lot of work to keep the trails up and keep good relations with out land owners. Our club puts on a picnic every year for landowners to say thanks. If we cut down a tree we will cut it put and stack it for the landowner to turn into firewood.

Now here's the important part, it's completely up to you! Clubs understand that, it's just part of doing business. We have to reroute trails from time to time, either someone buys the property or the owner just wants to do something different.

I hope this helps.

K
 
A snowmobile club here in Central N.Y. came to me when I first bought my property and ask for
permission to cross. I told them they could cross,
no stopping and revving their engines in the
middle of the night. They crossed behind a building about 200ft. from the house I never heard
them. One ran out of gas and asked if I had any
Gave him about 3 gallons I had and he gave me $20
Thought about opening a gas station for snowmobiles
When the season was over the club invited all the
landowners they crossed to one of the best meals
I've had.
 
I'm curious if everything you can ever think of will be covered in the proposed lease....
Let's just have me think of one example here. They are out at 11:00 PM on your property. Do you have the rights to tell them to go home? Your lease might cover this example, but what about the next one?
 
I have found from personal experience that the 10% rule applies in that situation.... meaning that one out of ten of the snowmobilers is going to be an inconsiderate turd who will not give a crap about your property and won't stay within the trail ....... or be concerned about your young trees etc..etc..etc..

I would not try to be a "good guy" ......... I would tell them no way .... you will be trespassing and if caught prosecuted.

The "clubs" make promises that a few members could care less about honoring. And then these members invite a few hundred of their friends.

It's a no win for the guy that's paying the taxes.
 
Do you speak with experience about people not respecting your land? If so, explain.

I and most people appreciate the use of riding on someone's land. And no, people won't go and sue if something happens. Not to mention many states require the snowmobiler to have insurance. in this day and age.

bob
 
You have gotten some good advice below, and some incorrect. I will throw my 2 cents worth in. In NY- snowmobile clubs recieve money from NYS which comes from a trail fund funded by a large surcharge on snowmobile registration fees.That may be what your neighbor means by "subsidized" by the state. The clubs will mark and maintain the trail,may want to build small bridge to cross creeks etc. and may groom the trail. In NYS it has been state law for years (NYS General Obligations Law) that you are NOT liable for accidents from non paying recreational use of your land. Additionally, the clubs carry insurance and can name you as " additional insured" if you allow access. If you are still considering dealing with them - here are my suggestions- Tell them you will try it for this year and see how it goes - if youre not happy they're out. Ask if the trail will be groomed and ask to see a trail map to try to get a handle on how much traffic will come through your property. There are main "corridor "trails and less heavily used secondary trails. If you are on a secondary trail you would probably see mostly local riders - if a main trail or on the way to a popular destination it may be busier.If you want them to stay in certain areas or out of certain areas(fenced pasture, near your home etc) make it clear and tell them to mark it . If you dont want ATV's make that clear. Most snowmobile clubs in this area do not allow ATVs on their trails as the ATVs can cause damage , and they dont want landowners to kick out the snowmobilers due to problems with ATV's. Hope this helps you decide. Where in CNY are you? If you let the snowmobile club in and your not too far away, I may even ride thru some day!JK
 
Sounds like it might be a good deal, but I'd never let them through my land. I've been asked twice. I'm also in central New York and those clubs have been nothing but a big headaache. Noise all night long, wandering off course and running through fields where they don't belong, flying down public roads where they are not allowed, etc. I know a few farmers that would love to take a few shots at them.

A guy I know is associated with the state of NY and the club here. They leave a very expensive diesel-powered tracked trail groomer sitting down the road from me, all year round. The name on it always makes me laugh - it's a "Piston Bully" whatever that is. German maybe?
 
A landowner had his property insurance canceled by AAA when the found his land had a snowmobile trail on it.I called AAA and told them I was thinking of buying the auto road coverage on my wife car and my truck until I saw what they did to the land owner.Call your insurance agent now.
 
They probably bought a used Piston Bully(Kassbohrer) from a ski hill. They are top of the line groomers and new cost about $250,000. A lot of them have Mercedes diesel's in them and recarro sports car seats. They can have 9 or 10,000 hours on them and still look like brand new because they're only used in the winter. Dave
 
riot 14...your reply was very insightful..it sounds so noble to let the club/state improve your land for their trail purposes so the public can use your land. 90% of the public will respect your land but the 10% seem to get a thrill out of its destruction. you will never be able to identify or get any repairs out of the 10%. also,the club/state invested money in their trail on your land. they say you can get out but they dont say how miserable they will make your life when you want to get out. the one big dinner per year is a pittance compared to the easement you will be giving them. just say ''no thanks''.i have
been there and never want to go back.




















been there and never want to go back.
 
No snowmobile, ATV or hunters on my property ever. Have you ever been shot at by hunters? I have.
 
Well, I read every reply. Sounds like the consensus is NO.

Doesn't sound like there is anything in it for you. Them fixing up the trail doesn't sound like much help to you.

You will loose some of your privacy and peace and quiet.

If someone gets hurt, you will get dragged into it. No ifs, ands, or buts about it! There is no waiver or lease or anything else that will prevent this. Even if they have ins. a plaintiffs lawyer drags in everyone. Now you may eventually be dismissed, but not after having to get a lawyer and spend some money and worry.

Like others have said it's easier to say no up front.

Gene
 
We had a club come through. The problem was that once deep snow comes, you get ALOT of out of town/state clubs coming through ( long weekends, holidays). Had em come up through cow path, up around barns, even under bedroom windows at 2:00 AM. On top of it all, going through, cutting fences, scaring stock, chewing trail down to soil and beyond, I got a load of back-talk and THREATS when I told em to get out and stayout. Got to the point I'd wait up on the Deere and with the Remington at the propperty line
 
At least somebody came to you and asked. We live near a utility right of way and the snowmobilers feel the only entity they need to deal with is that company even though they are technically riding on us and our neighbors. Of course it helps the utility company is basically an absentee landowner they don't have to deal with. I guess I feel lucky it is just snowmobilers and not ATV'ers and hunters though we do not condone any strangers on our property. The only way to stop them is post a guard around the clock as they frequently operate late at night. I agree with those that say most of the late nighters are out there just because it is less likely to be caught for DWI. We did see a noticeable drop in trail traffic when one of the local bars closed up (had issues dealing drugs among other things).
I also agree that a given percentage of operators are prone to disrespect land owners and may be criminally minded (see what they can remove from your property at 3AM). We have been lucky that we have only had a few small things come up missing while the neighbors have lost much more.
I would like to know chapter and verse if non-consenting landowners here in New York are truly not liable for somebody hurt on their property as we have been told different by people who should know.
Again, consider your self lucky that somebody asked before they did as most of the trails around here are run without permission.
 
Last year here in Wisconsin, some morons got the idea of running down deer with their sleds. They got caught and got fined more than it was worth. By the way I got asked this year and I said yes.
 
The club asked for a trail to maintain and groom most likely for the general public to ride with valid registration and permits. correct? Can be good or bad depending on law enforcement and club enforcement in the area. UP here many trails are on private land with the proper easements, and are no problems. Trails are gated in the off season to keep out OHV users and other unwanted people.

Again, consider your self lucky that somebody asked before they did as most of the trails around here are run without permission.
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If you have somebody grooming and maintaining a trail on your land then you need to have some works with that individual.
 
(quoted from post at 17:40:59 12/14/09) Well, I read every reply. Sounds like the consensus is NO.

Doesn't sound like there is anything in it for you. Them fixing up the trail doesn't sound like much help to you.

You will loose some of your privacy and peace and quiet.

If someone gets hurt, you will get dragged into it. No ifs, ands, or buts about it! There is no waiver or lease or anything else that will prevent this. Even if they have ins. a plaintiffs lawyer drags in everyone. Now you may eventually be dismissed, but not after having to get a lawyer and spend some money and worry.

Like others have said it's easier to say no up front.

Gene
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It's your decision but I think you are not getting a fair sample.

First off you're not liable, someone from NY confirmed that.

Second, you will get some wise guys. Same thing on as on the road. The good people greatly outnumber the bad.

If it's not that close to your house you will never hear them. At my parents place the trail goes through an open field probably about 100 yard from their house, most sled you don't even hear go by.

My place they go tough the woods probably 300 yards away and unless you are out side and listening you can hear them. The snow eats up so much of the noise.

If you are looking for something out of it besides you woods road maintained, then no it's not for you. In my town I can't believe how many land owners tell us how much they like having the trails around. They like to walk them, use them for hunting or what have you. But no, there's no direct kick backs.

I also find it funny that around here most clubs were created and driven by farmers who had some extra time in the winter. Heck up north a lot of the groomer operators are retired farmers. It's interesting to see how many folks here are so dead set against it.

Like I said it's your choice but I want you to have the complete story, not just the "no way, never" with out a real good explanation.

Oh, Pisten Bully, Tucker, or what may really interest you guys Sur-Tracks (http://www.ebertwelding.com/groomers/) or Gilberts (http://www.gilbert-tech.com/main.asp?lg=1&hdtpe=1&ctn=0&sctn0=2) should interest you guys.

K
 
Just want to comment on a few of your comments.

1. "you're not liable, someone from NY confirmed that"

That may or may not be true, but just because someone from NY said so, does not make it fact. I'm from NY. suppose I say otherwise? And, I've been told otherwise by State Police up in Jefferson County, NY. And, just because they said so, that doesn't make it so, either. You'd have to be nuts to agree without researching first.

#2 - If it's not that close to your house you will never hear them "

The club here in my area uses a trail that's a mile from my house. During the winter on weekends, we hear the constant loud whine of snowmobiles all night long on weekends, if the snow is good. Sometimes until daylight. Before they came I used to enjoy the peace around here on cold winter nights listening to the coyotes and owls. Now ??
Granted sound travels different in different areas. That's how it travels here, and deep snow does not muffle that constant noise.

I'm not anti-fun, and I also used to be part of snowmobile club. But, we did it in remote areas and used to travel to Old Forge and Tug Hill, NY every winter. We had a lot of fun and bothered nobody.
 
Here is "chapter and verse " as you requested. You can do a search for NY General Obligations Law and get the whole law online - good info for any landowner in this state . New York General Obligations Law Article 9 Title 1 S9-103-1-A - specifically mentions snowmobiling, along with hunting ,non commercial woodcutting etc.
 
My opinion is that once they establish a trail it will be near impossible to shut it down. There will be those that will not respect your wishes and those that will resort to threats (you are not home 24-7 to watch your place, are you?).
I have not heard one sheriff's deputy, state trooper, or lawyer mention NYS Obligations Law in discussion concerning trespassers on our place. When was this passed? Is this applicable across the entire state? I am not trying to be a smart arse. Seems like I only hear about the wiley plaintiff's lawyers that know how to work around most statutes.
 
I am the "someone from NY" mentioned. See my response to NY986 . This is one of the few laws in our great state that actually does something good for a landowner. I double checked my facts before posting this info as I wouldnt want to give incorrect info to the original post. You are correct- the landowner should look into this himself, which is how I learned about it in the first place .
 
Zero impact !
Thats a laugh, ever seen a field of fall wheat or hay in the spring ater the trail season is over and the growing season starts. Well it don"t start where the trail was , untill you replant. And as far as the land owners appreciation dinner goes, I never missed a meal in my life and I don"t need a "free" one from them . Now if they wanted to pay some good hard cash to rent the land , land around here rents for 100 bucks an acre, maybe now we could talk.
 
My thoughts not for or against the sleds. Have a contract that has an expiration date!!! like one year Talk to the other land owners in the area??? Ask them to put up escrow to cover any damage etc!!! I do belive that the others has pointed out many facts both good and bad.
 
Ask your self this ,Kopeck is a snowmobile enthusiast and so will tell you his story. I am a full time farmer, I have seen the crop damage ,the litter the out of trail riders, the fence cutters the list goes on. Who you want believe is your choice I have nothing to gain just offering the benefit of my experience.
 
(quoted from post at 18:45:59 12/14/09) Just want to comment on a few of your comments.

1. "you're not liable, someone from NY confirmed that"

That may or may not be true, but just because someone from NY said so, does not make it fact. I'm from NY. suppose I say otherwise? And, I've been told otherwise by State Police up in Jefferson County, NY. And, just because they said so, that doesn't make it so, either. You'd have to be nuts to agree without researching first.

#2 - If it's not that close to your house you will never hear them "

The club here in my area uses a trail that's a mile from my house. During the winter on weekends, we hear the constant loud whine of snowmobiles all night long on weekends, if the snow is good. Sometimes until daylight. Before they came I used to enjoy the peace around here on cold winter nights listening to the coyotes and owls. Now ??
Granted sound travels different in different areas. That's how it travels here, and deep snow does not muffle that constant noise.

I'm not anti-fun, and I also used to be part of snowmobile club. But, we did it in remote areas and used to travel to Old Forge and Tug Hill, NY every winter. We had a lot of fun and bothered nobody.
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#1 you are 100% correct on that one. I'm assuming it's true as it sounded pretty much identical to what Maine uses. I know other states do the same exact thing, I'm not sure about NY but if I was a betting man I would guess yes. That being said it never hurts to find out for your self.

#2 Sound does travel differently in different places. Speed also factors in the sound equation. All I can tell you is you don't hear them on my place.

I see your point but anywhere you go it's someone's back yard. This is all for fun, so it's give or take. I guess you just have to see my side as a member of a club that works very hard to keep everyone happy. I just hate it when people who have probably never had anything to do with a club trail spout off and scream "never, they're all hooligans". You on the other hand have some first hand experience. It's not for everyone, not trying to say it is, but there are some very happy land owners out there too.
 
(quoted from post at 19:22:54 12/14/09) Zero impact !
Thats a laugh, ever seen a field of fall wheat or hay in the spring ater the trail season is over and the growing season starts. Well it don"t start where the trail was , untill you replant. And as far as the land owners appreciation dinner goes, I never missed a meal in my life and I don"t need a "free" one from them . Now if they wanted to pay some good hard cash to rent the land , land around here rents for 100 bucks an acre, maybe now we could talk.
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We don't grow wheat around here so you may be right. Our hay fields show zero effect.

Now if the ground doesn't freeze that's another story.

Considering how little money clubs bring it I don't think you will ever see rentals. Now not all clubs are built the same, we're very small and don't have deep pockets. Clubs up north have much more cash on hand and much bigger equipment to maintain their trails. I think if one started to hand out cash for rentals is would be the end of clubs.

As far as fence cutting etc, we have way more trouble with hunter each fall then sleds over the winter. That just might be the way things work around here though.

K
 
I guess you are getting plenty of input. Here is a couple more thoughts for you I hadnt considered when I originally responeded. 1) are you in the "snow belt" area of Lewis,Oswego, Jefferson etc.counties or Adirondacks- if so you may have alot of out-of town and out of state riders pass thru if your land will be part of a main trail. 2) alot of people ride at night . If the trail would be near your home it could be noisy . If possible I would advise to keep the trail as far as possible from your home and buildings .
 
If they're on your property and they get hurt, rest assured, someone WILL sue YOU. They'll name the club because they have a policy and if they think you have money or anything they can take, they'll name you too.
I'd tell them to take a flying leap. Somewhere else. What's in this for you anyway?

Rod
 
The local trail used to angle 300yrds across the corner of my property.
I've found all kinds of trash discarded, a dead turkey hen somebody ran over and tracks up near my buildings.
I don't miss the noise either.
 
I know nothing about snowmobilers, but I know from past experience with other types of "visitors" - it's best to cull them all.

Too hard to tell the good from the bad.

The good are obviously no problem.

The bad - when it's over, EVERYBODY is ticked off.

I don't search for added stress in my life.

Paul
 
The land owner used to get a free trail pass in return for the use of their land. No more trail passes in exchange now so no more riding on my land.
One day while on my property sledding along with a bag of cracked corn for the wild turkeys after a series of nasty winter storms. The local trail cops started a pursuit since I dared ride on their trail upon my property.
According to the "law" a landowner can be charged for riding the trail without a pass on his own property.
I didn't get busted but they never caught up with me either.
Illegal ATV traffic along the snow route in the spring-summer-fall is a problem. The trail is legal for sled use during winter only.
 
This would be an easy call for me - - NO WAY. Unless you are a tree-hugger, or feel you have to always help others with their problems, then do not allow it. This is a free country and these folks can buy their own land and do as they wish. Why do you even contemplate such an idea? Do you really need this constant agravation in you life? Tom
 
The trails are not groomed in any way, shape, or manor. No maintenance is provided what so-ever. This is flat out trespassing. Without law enforcement actively patrolling the utility right-of-way, it is impossible to enforce the posted signs that are there. Last I knew the county does not own a sled for such purposes. Law enforcement manpower is such that it is likely nobody will be around to hand out citations when most of the activity happens (after dark). I think a DWI checkpoint would really help but that idea has not gotten far. Fortunately, most of this "trail" is cropped most of the year or I'm sure the ATV's would be a problem, too.
The landowners have attempted to deal with this but nobody can be out there all day and night seven days a week. And since there is potential for hostility, law enforce should be in the thick of it, anyways.
 
Tell em NO. It makes em mad. A feller stopped in to ask if he could snowmobile in my pasture. I said NO. He almost started crying because he had this new snowmobile and couldnt find a place to ride.

Same with someone who wants to buy 5 acres. Told em NO. Sold out and moved south. Now a housing development is going in.

steveormary
 
Don't know as it could vary from state to state, but in my state, EVEN if the person or persons is trespassing, if they are injured or killed, the land owner can be brought in to the suit. What a way to lose most if not all you have to someone that was breaking the law in the first place.
My answer to them would be, N O.
 
A responsible club will clean up the trail and you could even include that in the deal. Snowmobilers are pretty serious these days with sleds easily costing over $10,000. Quads and atv's are a whole different animal. I have a Motocross track. I had someone from a natural area try to say my track was causing more bikes and quads to ride in the natural area 2 miles away. In actual fact, my having a track gives people a legal place to ride and limits illegal riding, cut fences etc. The gravel pit close by has bikes and they fully support my track as it keeps people out of there washed sand and gravel pit. I don't think it's fair to automatically assume it couldn't be good for both of you. You can set the rules and if they don't comply, cut off access. They came to you because your neighbor said no. I'm sure they don't want to lose another access trail and have to talk to a dozen land owners trying to get access. Dave
 
I've been a pretty avid snowmobiler all my life and have ridden a lot of trails that were built exactly like you have described, going from state to private property and back and forth. Being a lot older and different than I was in my 20's I can honestly see why somebody would say NO WAY! I just can't stand any noise anymore. I hate loud exhausts on any motor vehicle and snowmobiles are about the worst. Snowmobile people are just like harley people and they go out and take a perfectly good stock snowmobile and put on some overbearing pipes so everybody will notice them. I hate loud pipes with a passion. I wouldn't want them going by all hours of the day on a weekend. I want peace and quiet on my weekends outside, not noise. These people don't give a hoot about you or your property for anything longer than the ten seconds it takes them to cross it. If they were forced to pass a noise decible meter as a law I might consider it. Then you will have atv's all summer doing the same thing. These sleds and atv's sound like a bunch of chain saws running all day. Real irritating. It never seems to damage our wheat fields but they do damage roads with studs and they run over small trees and kill them without batting an eye. 20 years ago I would have thought nothing of having the trail go through here. Not now. Now I reserve the right to be a cranky old man that wants noisy snowmobiles and harleys to dissapear. I would probably say no thanks.
 
I can explain in basic terms. Not about snowmobiles but about a neighbor that is a total #ickhead and uses my driveway at his leisure to run a firewood business. Luckily he cant get the firewood for free anymore so his business is gone. --I dealt with this for 3 years.
My wife and I decided that if he was going to be selling the wood again this winter we would go to the township and the police.

I have also had many signs removed from my land that said "no hunting" Some jerkoff ripped down all of these signs. (no respect)
If anyone came to me and asked to ride their sled on my land my answer would be a flat out NO!
 
Ever notice how these folks with all their expensive toys want to ride on someone else's property..........instead of on their own? Ask if you can plant corn or soybeans in their front yard and see what they say.......
 
Personally, where I am, I don't like the general public having knowledge of my land, it invites more problems to say the least, where they travel is too close, and the jerks that ride, will take down fences and barriers, last year someone took a stand from a tree etc.

What I find is that people get this sense of freedom when it snows, because who can follow em or catch em when there is 2 feet on the ground, some of these sleds are so fast and dangerous, so what if they ride off trail, I've had the rink we clear for hockey, tracked over by sleds, 20 acres of water, they have to ride right through where we play.

Also beware, there seems to be a lot of alcohol consumption, and or places to stop to do same, lot of friends used to ride out in tug hill and or our in central/western ny, most of them would drink and run their sleds, so I would say at least, be aware you may get or have a rowdy bunch, not trying to label snowmobilers, but I'd be hardpressed to be convinced that there is not that element of alcohol involved. Lots of people from the NYC area also migrate up, you add some drinks, fast sleds, and wide open spaces, you have the potential for a rowdy bunch.

On the loud pipe, we have one jerk with one here, they use the power lines to get to our place and boy does it get annoying at 3am, they blow past the posted signs, not for long, they will be fenced out soon. Nothing personal, just don't want em passing through, I too like it quiet, if'n they can't respect that, after stealing last year, 1st goes the fence, then the confrontation, then the police, which are a joke..... I for one am tired of dealing with atv's and snowmobilers, nothing good ever comes from it, always a nuisance, maybe in some places it does not have to be like that, but for many, best to keep em out.
 
A landowner lost his insurance because a snowmobile trail was on his land.Never heard of the outcome .He had insurance with AAA.I had planted fruit trees run over buy snow mobiles.Also saw many snowmobilers loading up on beer at the corner store.Neighbor shut down a trail close behind his house because snow mobiles were going by at full speed at 1 and 2am.A fellow who lived near a club house was ready to close a trail on his land because of beer can and bottle litter.
 
if your thing is chaos, noise, arguements over who owns the property,strangers telling you what to do, ect. ect. then sign up and get your free meal every year....however, it is sorta like the two wars we are fighting--you best have an iron clad exit strategy..been there an done that an NEVER AGAIN
 
Around here, (Western Wisconsin), the snomobilers
are a bunch of drunks, going from tavern to tavern
most carry fenceing pliers and are ready, at the
drop of a pin, or a beer can, to cut fences and
tresspass. NO WAY, would I ever give permission
for snomobiles, and I"m ready to call the sheriff
when I see any around.
 
I agree with a lot of the others: Only answer is NO! I bought some property that was previously used as a "recreation area" by neighbors. They are very upset that I won't let them hunt/fish/ATV/Snowmobile on MY property. Of course, my not letting them doesn't stop them from doing it anyway, leaving broken beer bottles, empty bait containers and other trash. I am in the process of fencing it off. Found one area last week where a neighbor/hunter had cut the top of a fence so he could climb over it and hunt on MY land. They've even been stealing trees off of it. I am tempted to send them a bill for part of my taxes.

Don't give an inch. Tell them to go buy their OWN property to ride on.
 
(quoted from post at 04:33:12 12/15/09) Ever notice how these folks with all their expensive toys want to ride on someone else's property..........instead of on their own? Ask if you can plant corn or soybeans in their front yard and see what they say.......
Click to expand...

UP here snowmobile trails run 100's to 1000's of miles. I don't know anybody with that much land in a contiguous block. So it is necessary to cross private and public land.
 
chevytaHOE5674 said, "So it is necessary to cross private.......land."

Not sharp-shooting you personally; I obviously don't know you, but the above statement pretty much says it all about landowner's opposition to trepassers and their attitude.
 
(quoted from post at 07:59:31 12/15/09)
Not sharp-shooting you personally; I obviously don't know you, but the above statement pretty much says it all about landowner's opposition to trepassers and their attitude.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by trespassers, But I am a member of a snowmobile trail grooming association. We spend many hours cleaning up any debris left along the trails come spring, also spend hours with a tractor and dozer doing trail maintenance and improvements to sections of private land. We have no issue with getting private land owners involved in LEGALLY leasing out land for trail sections and connectors, as they love the tourism it brings to their small towns.

You guys make it sound like these are 2 mile snowmobile trails that just go around your private land, or a few buddies want to rid your land. These are LONG trails that cover counties, states, and countries.
 
It's always the same. Guy buys ATV, dirt bike, quad, snowmobile, etc. and wants someplace to ride it. Not a slow, leisure motorized-sleigh ride, but a go like he#l, tear it up, jump, do donuuts, etc. They used to run the power line bisecting our property. I leased my section so I have some authority to keep them out. NO WAY would I let anyone on.

Larry in Michigan
 
My sitution was (and still is) one of ATV riders driving through some forest land I own in Jefferson County, NY. They kept cutting my fences down until I gave up fixing. State Police warned me that if put up stronger fences, and someone on an ATV or snowmobile gets hurt, I could be held liable. Also told me it's happened already in NY. Now, I can't say if true at all, and if true - was it liable in a law court or a civil court that has more lax rules?

I did check Nexus-Lexus for case-law and found several suits that did take place, but did not get all the details.
 
Seems I read the new law differently then Kopect does.

Like most, this law has many dangerous "loopholes" that can come back and bite the NY landowner.

Note that the newly modifed 9-103 statute law that is supposed to release the landowner from responsibity, clearly states the following:

"does not limit the liability . . . for willful or malicious failure to guard or to warn against a dangerous condition . . . "

So, if I "willfully" put up a fence, or "willfully" don't remove a leaning tree, and somebody crashes into it and gets hurt, I certainly can get sued and/or charged - in criminal court and/or in a civil court.

Show me a law that states - the BS ends here and the land owner is fully protected - no matter what - and the user takes his and her chances, - then I'll go for it.

Remember that when somebody takes you to court- fair or not fair - you have to show up.
 
Larry in Michigan
Click to expand...

Assuming you are in the southern LP. The northern LP and all of the UP welcomes snowmobilers. They bring in millions of dollars in revenues, which keeps many town alive during the winter months.

I for one love being able to ride from the east end of Michigans UP to the west end and on into Wisconsin and Minnesota. That would not be possible without the cooperation and generosity of many private land owners (myself included). Thank you to all the land owners that are willing to lease their land to snowmobile clubs.
 
i was in the program. some of my stories could be titled: 1.snowmobilers teach landowners grandson all the curse words 2.snowmobilers dump deer carcases on land and report landowner as poacher 3.club members angry at landowner because no hunting/trapping allowed. 4.alternate landfill/dump 5.we paid for improvements it belongs to the public 6.ect.ect 7. NEVER AGAIN
 
I find the "old rail bed" interesting and that the neighbor revoked access. I know of at least one instance in Wisconsin where the county used a trail on a rail bed WITHOUT the land owner's consent.

There had been a trail through the property forever when it was owned locally as forest land. Some couple bought a piece of it as vacation property and had a disagreement with the snowmobile club.

Because the rights to the railroad bed were still owned by the county, they decided to use it to cross that property.
 
Why tell them no? What's the point of doing it just to tick them off? I can understand why you wouldn't want someone tearing up a pasture, but if I had a bunch of land and someone was willing to help improve it in exchange for limited access, I'd at least consider it. At least they asked. (This is where politeness comes in)
 
Must be a regional thing because once the trails are groomed UP here to "tear up" the ground you have to chip through 18-24" of packed icy/snowy base plus the 12"+ powder on top of that. I can try and try and try and I still don't see grass until April/May/June.
 
> I find the "old rail bed" interesting and that the neighbor revoked access. I know of at least one instance in Wisconsin where the county used a trail on a rail bed WITHOUT the land owner's consent.

The land owner was the railroad though. Railroads didn't mess about with getting right-of-way variances or anything like what we're accustomed to these days. They bought strips of land outright.

My farm is split down the middle by an old railbed, and I don't own it, but I sure as heck use it.

My Dad tells a story about when the railroad that owns the land hired an auditor to unload unwanted assets. This auditor came around trying to sell back the land to farmers. Dad told them, he was just fine with the railroad paying the property taxes on it for him. The guy said "What if we sell it to someone else?". Dad laughed at him and said "Good! They can put the railroad back in." That was the last we ever heard about it.
 
JML755, where can I get a piece of land that I can do a 125 mile loop on a snowmobile and never go over the same area twice? Oh and how can I afford it, this side of winning the lottery?

To the "halfway point" on the trail would take 90 minutes driving or about 4 hours on a snowmobile. Sorry, but to do something as enjoyable as that, we as snowmobilers must ask to use private land.

How many acres is your "recreation area"?

I used to run my sleds on my uncle's and neighboring farms, about 700 acres combined. It gets boring riding around the same land I go over for first cutting (silage), second & third cutting (hay) and I cannot forget driving truck for corn silage as well. Not to mention picking stones over the same corn field in the fall. So to be able to do a 100 mile loop and see places in the woods I normally would not be able to see, I appreciate the owners allowing their land for snowmobiling use.

bob
 
Actually, it was the county that owned the land. When the old railroad disappeared (it was an abandoned logging line in northern Wisconsin) the land for the tracks was deeded to the county.

In any case, you're right that the property owners did not actually own the rail line clearing (which came as a shock to them!). CB said this all started because the local club was kicked off an old rail line. I was just curious as to whether that neighbor farmer really owned the old rail bed or not.
 
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