Starting Fluid Harmful

Yes it is! You can wash all the oil off the cylinder walls and wreck the rings, or do like some jackasses and keep spraying it in, and hydrolock the engine for awhile, possibly bending a connecting rod. The engine should be turning over and THEN spray the starting fluid into the intake.

Have you ever done this or can you provide reliable, first-hand documentation of someone who HAS destroyed an engine with ether or are you just perpetuating and "old wives tale"??

I watched some guys start an International bus engine by spraying ether into the air intake. As long as they kept spraying in ether the engine ran fine. When they stopped, the engine stopped. But as it was coasting down, they sprayed the ether in again and the engine accelerated and ran fine. I said: "Why don't you try adding some fuel to the tank". They said: "No, the tank is 3/4 full." We added 5 gallons to the tank and the engine started and ran fine. Turned out to be a faulty fuel guage or sending unit. Pretty funny. Bus ran for years after that.

At least your last sentence is correct. Without ether, a lot of engines would not be running in the winter. Like yesterday- you"re saying I should not have given the 4240 a sniff when it was 6 below and I needed the tractor to unload corn? Would not have popped off without it, even being plugged in for hours. Common sense rules. Electricity is dangerous too, so is gasoline, running with scissors, straight edge razors, etc.

It is pretty comon to give diesel farm tractors a little either to start them in cold weather. Most have an electric either injector on them right from the factory. I have been doing it since my first 4010 in 1961.
David B

Where were you 51 years ago when I started using the stuff? I've been cranking these old 4020s that I use to feed with (before I retired) since they were new and have often (depending on circumstances) used a whiff.......before turning them over. I always found it much easier to get the 'right' amount before hitting the start button. Two of 'em have better than 14,000 hours; they would've probably lasted a long time.......... if I hadn't used the ether.

We had a White garbage truck (diesel) at work that the fuel gelled on and by trying to keep it running on ether they melted a couple of pistons.Over use can cause damage. Bill M

I have used it since 1962 and never wrecked a engine.

its not harmful if the brain is engaged before using it.

Some of these comments are absurd.

Let's say we're discussing drinking alcohol. One guy gets a bad liver at age 30 and dies and all he ever drank was beer. Another guy drinks vodka every day, and smokes three packs of non-filtered Camels daily. At age 80, he's still working in the woods every day, feeling pretty good. I've known many of both.

That's how this discussion has gone. So, beer kills, or vodka makes you live longer . . . which is it?

Just because someone has used "ether for years" and done OK proves absolutely nothing. It's not worth mentioning unless there are many more details. Especially on some gas engine that's only running a 6 to 1 compression ratio, and not 21 to 1 like on some diesels.

Do most of us at least agree, that tractors are not all the same, and . . . people are not all the same?

To Bob and his comment . . .
" can you provide reliable, first-hand documentation of someone who HAS destroyed an engine with ether"

I have seen it happen many times, first hand, as the damgage was done. Also had to pull the engines apart to fix them, over and over. You ask for "reliable, first hand" info and not sure how I can certify that. I've worked for many Deere dealers over the years, and can verify my work record along with many tech certifications from Deere Co. That at least proves I was there turning wrenches.

Our biggest problem was broken pistons/rings, not scuffed cylinder walls. And, I mean broken and shattered to pieces. Next to that was cracked precombustion chamgers in IDI diesels. But, since Deere didn't make many of those, it was only a problem in 1010s and 2010s.

During the 80s, we had more forestry and commercial clients then farm tractor customers. Subsequently, we had many machines sitting in the woods or at jobsites with no electricity available for block heaters. So, a guy would come to work and it might be zero or colder. He's pull the air cleaner cover off and spray ether constantly while someone else cranked. Engine would knock, lock up , knock, and eventually start. If it was a Deere engine that did NOT have Keystone rings, the rings would often shatter first and then the pistons. That includes all the 350 and non-turbo 450 crawlers, 1020 and 2020 ag. tractors. Also 440 and 540 log skidders. Also the 480 forklifts.
The common complaint was the engine "got addicted" to ether. That because after a big cold spell, the tractor never started right again. Not even in warm weather. Why? The top rings were completely gone. With no top rings, the engine still run pretty good, just start terrible and won't even try without ether. Not even when it's 80 degrees F outside.
Later or more expensive engines got Keystone plasma piston rings and forged pistons that held up much better. That includes 450 crawlers with turbos, 350Ds with French Saran engines, and many older big tractors - like 3020s and 4020s.
I'm mentioning Deere only because I worked at many Deere dealerships. We got many other brands to repair with the same issues. Especially Allis Chalmers HD4 crawlers, ED40 IDI engines, and small IH farm tractors with IDI engines.

One anecdotal case-in-point. Last year my farmer/logger neighbor bought himself a Deere 350 crawler from a dealer with a newly rebuilt engine. He used it all summer. Then winter came. I helped him put steering clutches in, and then . . . when we wanted to start it (in an unheated shop) he broke out the ether. And, he refused to use Deere's OEM ether injector. Why? It didn't put enough in to satisfy him. At that time I warned him that he needed a block heater and he laughed at me (like some of the forum people here). Let's call it "happy oblivion." I left. A month later he called me telling me his crawler wouldn't start anymore. So, I pulled the head off. All three pistons broken, but #2 was completely gone. So . . . pulled it all apart. Ordered Tisco pistons and sleeves. Then I came back and threw it together for him. I also warned him this would be the last time if he did NOT install a block heater. So, he did. Then a few weeks later he calls me again. Really angry telling me his crawler is a bad as before and the Tisco parts were "no **** good." He swore to me he hadn't used any ether. So, out of feeling some guilt, I went back up. Remember, this is a "friend" and I'm doing all this for free. I pull the head off and this time two pistons are missing. Just bare rods in there with pieces all over the place. I was really perplexed. I'd never seen one quite this bad. I got thinking maybe Tisco was selling bad parts. So, I rebuilt it again, this time with parts from Deere. Then . . . this guys granddaughter stops by and thanks him for helping her out. For what? She tells me that the he car had gotten stuck in the snow by their house. It was below zero. So, "grandpa" was in a hurry to get his Deere crawler started and the block heater was not plugged in. So? She helped him start it. She cranked why he kept spraying ether into the intake. She said it sounded awful, tried to start, smoked, and then gave up.

I got real ticked off. Then, grandpa admittted to me that yes, he used ether again, but only "once." I think he learned his lesson, but we'll see.

And, to be clear - I am not saying ether used in any way destroys engines. Give me a break. On this 350, Deere Co. took he trouble to provide a safe ether injector on the dashboard, that uses a control orifice. The owner did NOT use it.

John Bud posted some typical ether damage photos at:

http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=565825&sid=a9213d35724ab1bb74efcbc5817f2e6b

50+ years in ag bussiness and have seen it all
but without it some would have been never used in the winter. Is there anyone on here that remembers the old little dash mounted canister that you took out a small capsule and put in this device and screwed it down to pop the pill and start the engine. Was standard on early oliver desiel like in late 56 or so and I think I remem ber it on dash of some HD series ac dozers?

some may not believe it but brake cleaner works and is not so violent.The Sterling truck used it to help get a NEW Sterling road tractor primed after our mechanic screwed it up changing the fuel filter. He said it wouldn't void the engine warranty either as I guess they can tell if the ether had been used. Before you doubt it try it on some of the old diesels you have to squirt.

I've heard the story that ether "washes the oil off the cylinder walls" many times, but it doesn't stand up to any serious scrutiny. For that to happen, you must first accept the premise that ether exists in a liquid state in the combustion chamber, but that's a virtual impossibility: The fluid must vaporize before it can be inducted into the chamber. Once there, the temperature of the air charge would have to drop significantly for the ether to condense. And we all know that diesel engines rely on the heat generated by compressing the air charge for ignition, so the ether is simply not going to condense in the combustion chamber of a diesel engine.

Even if ether could exist in a liquid state in the combustion chamber, it's hard to see how it could clean the cylinder walls more effectively than diesel fuel; there's going to be a lot of unburned fuel in the cylinder after you crank an engine for a minute or two.

If there's any case where this would be true, it would be when starting fluid is used on a small gasoline engine. But again, how is a little liquid ether worse than raw gasoline, which you're going to get if you flood the engine?

I'll be the first to say that if you hit your engine with a healthy dose of starting fluid, preignition can destroy a piston in an instant. But the "washed cylinder walls" theory just doesn't hold water.

Having worked at a boat dealership, whenever a 2 cycle outboard came in for work with 2-3 ether cans in the motorwell a compression test was first. Guess What? A new powerhead and several thousand dollars later it was running.

The old 826 IH with the push button injector was handy, but eventualy needed to be used repeatedly in 80 degree weather until a re-build was necessary.

Yes, my Allis HD6 has it. Buda 344 diesel engine.

Just curious, my dad always wet a rag with gasoline and held it near the intake, always worked, is this harmful? I still do it when the old Massey wont crank in the cold.

I am with you Pard, I have been around diesel all my life, retired a heavy equipment mechanic. All my tractors have glow plugs or electric heaters, even my gassers. You just can not beat keeping that engine warm for cold starts!

Starting fluid is like anything else, if used properly no problems but if used improperly problems will arise. As stated, if used improperly it can break rings and lock up engines among other things.

If the engine has glow plugs, starting fluid can become a real problem. I saw one engine that had an intake manifold glow plug. The manifold was broken up due to the glow plug igniting the starting fluid.

The company I worked with always discouraged any use of starting fluid but they also had electric heaters, propane heaters and circulating hoses on every machine so the engine could be warmed up before even attempting to start it.

The circulating hoses amounted to hooking the pickup coolant system up to the diesel engines system. We would circulate the coolant from the pickup into the diesel engine for 15 to 30 minutes, then just start the engine as it was already warmed up. Usually while doing this we also hooked up jumper cables just to warm up the batteries.

As an alternative to starting fluid you might try WD40. It isn"t as violent as starting fluid but works well.

AHA that pretty much tells the whole story don't buy John Deere. Giggle.
Walt

PS I have seen a lot of engines over the years that were started on ether some didn't fair to good for it and others never had a problem. Most damage is caused buy over use not just the use of ether.
Reading the notes below I would say that they pretty much confirm that.

I had a problem with the fuel pump in the tank of my '95 Dodge Cummins, I though the first time that the gauge was off and I ran it empty. The tow truck driver told me to use WD-40 to start it to get it running again. I used it with good results. I had to use it for a week until I had time to get it into the shop, the pressure in the injection system would bleed off getting air in the lines after it sat overnight. Anybody else use this method?

I was looking through an old Case service manual for an early 1845 skid steer with the 188 engine. It clearly states that improper/over use of starting fluid will destroy the lands on the piston rings and damage the engine. Dave

I knew a couple of guys, Both gone now, that had a diesel THAT the first time they started it from a new rebuild it took half a case of ether to start the engine! They finally go to where they could start it with a half of a 15 oz. can. WHY? It only had a 7 to one compression ratio. It would finally run when you got enough heat in the block and the exhaust to spin-up the staged turbo system that was on it. When under power with a manifold pressure over 100PSI the whole exhaust system would turn red from the approximate 1 CC of fuel that was being injected into each cylinder. This engine was a some what modified ,LOL, 6000 Ford tractor engine.

Kent