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OT-More on Government healthcare

N

NCWayne

Well-known Member
I read all the posts concerning this mess and some of the reply make me wonder if anyone out there really has a clue how messed up this proposed government run program would be....if not from the start then a few years down the road when the corruption, cost over runs, etc, etc all had time to set in and take hold and our taxes rose to cover all of it. Then take in the ways I've heard it would cause increases to the already overpriced fees charged by the private healthcare companies already and we're all going to need Uncle Sam to pay our way...or our funeral costs from working ourselves to death trying to pay for everyone else on top of just ourselves.

Now let's take a minute and look at some government run healthcare systems already in place. First I'll ask how many of you have been in the military? How many have ever had the need to use the VA? How many of you have seen how screwed up things are trying to go through the VA? Now remember, this is supposed to be government run medical care at it's finest to take care of our national heros. True sometimes things will go alright but all in all I've heard more horror stories about waits for this and that, things not covered, etc etc etc, than I've heard glowing comments about how great it was. Now remember this is healthcare for people that have served this country, not just the average joe off the street.

The back up a step and look at the active duty military medical system and it's ties to the dependents. After spending just 6 years in the Navy I saw how messed up it is. You go to the clinic and wait and wait and wait and hope they see you today. If they don't get to you today then you go back tomorrow. What I always saw and was told was that dependng on whether you were dependent or active duty, low ranking or high ranking, really sick or not so sick all came into play when determining when you got seen. Once again these are the people actively serving this counrty (and their families) protecting you and me, again not just the average joe off the street.
Looking back at all of that remember that these two medical programs only apply to a small percentage of the population. As messed up as they are think how messed up it's going to be for the Government to try to run a healthcare system that's supposed to handle millions more people.

Beyond that look to Europe where state run healthcare systems have been in place for years. Do a little reading and eventually you'll see and hear the same types of 'problems' I mentioned about our current government run, military related, healthcare systems. Now I can't quote statistics but I do read enough to know that trying to socialize healthcare is not the answer to our conutries problems.

You want to fix healthcare, stop frivilious medical lawsuits, stop allowing pharmacutical companies/hospitals/doctors in general/etc engage in price gouging on their products/services, stop letting money hungry 'suits' at the insurance companies make medical decisions and leave that for the trained doctors. In the end I agree we should all have access to healthcare but socializing it and having our "almighty and all knowing" government tax all of us in order to give insurance to illegal immigrants, people to lazy to work, and others of the same ilk simply isn't the answer.
 
Right On, Name one government ran program with all the red tape and beauracracy that is more efficient then the private sector??????? I'm puzzled why some are so bent on leading this country down the path of Socialism which history proves leads to failue versus our free market system..

Vote NO to government healthcare unless you want to end up like Canada with waiting list rationed care and some beauracrat choosing and making your life and death healthcare decisions..

Ol John T, Christian, Conservative, Patriot
 
That was the statement I was hearing back in the 1970's along with, the only way to achieve this is for half the people to lay down and die.

They see us old duffers as polluting the health system.

This plan sounds like that as the baby boomers get older the old plan could not be able pay the bill. If fewer of the baby boomers can get life prolonging treatments the funds will not have to go to as many people.

This plan does start mandatory end of life counseling at age 65 and every 5 years unless you are sick and then it is every year.

If you are in your younger years and the sick old duffer three countys not getting your goverment health care funds because he was found to not be worth the cost will not ruffel your feathers but if gets to your Grandmother next door it just might.
 
Well see there is the Right way, the Wrong and then last but not least the Government way. Notice the Government way is not in the middle but even worse then the wrong way.
 
TO MY KNOWLEDGE health care in every country, including England, that has been "nationalized" or government run has been a dismal failure.

I do know that England has or at least had, caps on monetary awards for lawsuits and as a result, has far fewer medical law suits.

I do know that India now has very highly ranked medical services. Many people go to India to have medical procedures performed because even though they pay 100% of the cost, it is less than what their "portion" of the cost would be if they had the same procedure done here.

I do know that many doctors today are not interested in or are prevented from actually healing anyone. They just push pills at you to control the symptoms.

One doctor I know finally got fed up and left the medical firm where he worked because the new office manager MANDATED they spend no more than 20 minutes with each patient so they could schedule more appointments (make more $$$) each day.

When we had Kaiser-Permanente as our HMO, we had one doctor who was great. He really was interested in getting you healed and not pushing pills. This did not set well with K-P, so they put him on the night shift in the emergency room.

Like most of you, I have heard the "horror stories" about people who have suffered and even died because the health care provider denied services on a "technicality".

I know for a fact with my current health care provider, Blue Cross Blue Shield, if you schedule you annual check up just ONE day before you had it the year before, they will deny the claim.

I am concerned about this health care bill. I do not believe it will help anything. According to one news cast (if you can believe the news) at a cost of 1.5 TRILLION it would only address the needs of 1/3 or less of those who do not have any health care coverage.

Besides the waste and proven ineptness of government run programs, the govt is saying this won"t increase the deficit. If a new program that costs, at least now, 1.5 trillion isn"t going to increase the deficit, where is the govt going to get the money to pay for it? Since the only funds the govt receives is taxes, the govt is going to have to raise existing taxes and/or create new taxes to pay for this program if its not going to increase the deficit.

Another thing that really concerns me is the incredibly hard push to force this through immediately. Why the rush?

I believe there are many in congress (both parties) who do not think this bill is a good thing, but are not willing to stand up against it.
 
The health care plan better not pass. They would be better off recruiting businesses back to the US, in hopes that profitable businesses would once again start increasing the amounts of jobs with health ins as a benefit. I do think it should be law that a non insured person should be given the same bill as the negotiatede maximun allowed, that the insurance companies pay, if not a bit less. What they should do is focus on the current abuse of welfare by many people. It makes me mad that a woman with 5 kids with 3 different dads has better medical coverage than I can afford, and she pays nothing, plus she doesnt even have to pay income tax on the child support she recieves. In St cloud MN we have a high population of Somolians,( not bashing the somolians, I know many and many of them are good decent people) many of whom have good, good insurance through their employers, they go to the doctor for everything, in fact there are factual cases where many persons were going to the doctor and using one persons insurance. One such case was brought to light when a guy came in for a stomach ache or something, and the doctor noticed that his records stated he just recieved a cast for a broken arm a few days later by another doctor,hmm busted. This place has new policies which are cutting back on this fraud, but it sure doesnt help bring down insurance premiems. What external_link talks about sounds good, but isnt feasable, with out a massive " trasfer of wealth" which he stated how many times we needed. Take from the rich give to the poor, well, I think any one thats actually works and is making a living and earning what they have is gonna be considered as the rich. Take note of what external_link's final question and answer was about last night, Race. He is becoming more brave at bashing the white race, yet it isnt called on. He has many hidden agenda's, this bill is the 2nd one he needs to make sure goes through so he can bring the worst forward, that is why he is pushing so hard, actually intimidating and threatening. Hmm, does that sound like a democracy? Again, I've done it, I hope the rest of you are gonna do it, call or write to all your representatives, local to the white house and make your values known, they represent you. We cant just sit and type on here about it. These are my thoughts and overall conclusions, please respect them,.
 
I really think you people ought to ask some Canadians what they think of their health care system, not just listen to the right wing radio, which is funded by the insurance industry. I have relatives in Canada, and they are very happy with their system. If you think we have the best in the world, you are living in the 1950's. Again, ask a real Canadian, there are some on this board.
 
Not true---My grandparents moved to Canada 25 years ago for the "free" medical.

It is a great thing (not counting the high taxes) Until-----You get a sickness that you need care for now--. Just ask anyone that has to be put on a waiting list for surgery---months to get surgery for gallbladder or hysterectomy or whatever. (my grandfather had to come to the USA for cadarac procedure that he paid for out of his pocket)
The free market is still the best thing.
 
Really? Were they ever sick and in need of urgent surgery? How come Canadian doctors send their patients to the US for surgery? Maybe becasue a 6 mo wait for a heart bypass is a little rediculous. Over 59 yrsold in England and you might not even be allowed a bypass surgery. Hawaii tried state run health care and had to s-can it in a few years because it was bankrupt.
 
This whole scam is'nt about health coverage at all. This is all about MORE government control. All of us, all of us that work that is, are going to be hit with taxes of all kinds to pay for this. Like somebody else mentioned, We are hearing more and more it's the white mans fault. Surprise, Surprise, Looks like He learned his lessons well at the Rev, Wright's so-called church. I believe we're looking at REPARATIONS, that some have been whining about for years. This is just one step that external_link wants to take. Yeah, theres HOPEANDCHANGE coming, but not for the working man, especially if you're white. In our case hope in one hand and crap in the other, and see which one fills up first.
Jack
 
Anyone who supports this garbage is either a complete dupe, or a government teet sucker. With the majority, the latter. We don't have to look at anything. That is the first mistake, its like saying, yes someone should just not the government. Its not about how good of a job they can or can't do. They have no business doing it in the first place. This healthcare stuff is going to be compulsorily. Fines if you don't have it. ILLEGAL to purchase your own. Single payer "US Goverment". SS isn't even that bad. Could you imagine if the Government raided all our 401Ks, out lawed savings, and forced us to live out our lives on SS alone....
 
As a canadian, I must say I am fairly happy with the health care that we get. Don't forget though, that health care is the domain here of the individual provinces, not the federal government. I cannot say that health care is any better or worse in other provinces compared to ours in Nova Scotia. That being said, if services are required in another province that Nova Scotia does not or cannot provide, the MSI program here pays for those services, and if treatment in the United States is approved, MSI will pay for up to what they would normally cover if that service was to have been done here. The other thing they they will not pay for however, is travel and family accomodation costs for the visit.
We do pay a fairly substantial tax to pay for health care services, but it's not a rob from the rich thing either. Everybody pays the same sales taxes, rich or poor, so if you earn more and buy more, then logically, you end up paying more. We pay a harmonized sales tax here of 13%. Not sure now how much is provincial and how much federal any more, but that's where we pay for health care. There are things like prescription drugs, physio, private rooms in hospitals, but I am lucky too in that I have a plan to cover those things outside of normal provincial care through my workplace, and the wife's workplace also. My work insurance covers eyeglasses, drugs, physio, chiropractic, and private room coverage when hospitalized, and a few other things also. My cost for those things are about $12 a month on a group plan, so it's not that bad. The wife gets hers for free.
 
The guys that were advocating population control back in the '70s were Paul Erlich and John Holdren. They published a book called "Ecoscience" in which they outlined their plan of forced abortion, forced sterlization and other population control measures.

John Holdren is now the external_link administration's "Science and Technology Czar".
 
I just sat through a three hour "training" session on how to do the paperwork for construction jobs that are partially financed by the ARRA (Stimulus package). Our conclusion - we will avoid bidding on these projects if at all possible. The system is set up for maximum graft and minimum production.

The biggest joke during the session - remember these are the people that want to run our health care too.
 
I talk to them all the time on a parent support group forum. Its amazing how many take their kids to the US for treatment for epilepsy.

For something as basic as the Keto diet that requires no drugs but only a trained dietician to administer there are only 9 locations in all of Canada to go for treatment. There are 7 locations in Kansas alone.

Canada care is great - as long as you stick to the basics. You get a difficult to diagnose treatment that requires specialists - hold on tight - and getting a second (or third) opinion means lots a prayer......
 
That's just it - Canada doesn't really have a "national" program. Each province has more less an individualized program designed to meet its people's needs. They realized that one size fits all doesn't work in a county of 30 million people - and it sure as **** won't work in a country of 300 million people.
 
They bad part about this whole mess is I don't think we can do a thing to stop it. Some say call or E-mail your congressmen and senators and tell them not to vote for it, but I watch C Span almost every night and it appears to me the the majority of the nnalert minds are already made up to pass it and the nnalert don't have the votes to stop it.The great change external_link promised is moving right along, but it's not going to help the working man. It appears to me it is politics as usual.
 
yours Sounds like a basic "state" plan with a "premium" plan purchased on the side.... kinda like suplemental medicare insurance....

If this goes thru our Canadian friends will not want to seek extra/special medical services here. Although..... he probably wants to cover all north Americans so it would be free for you... but you get what you pay for ...... what a mess.
 
"You want to fix healthcare, stop frivilious medical lawsuits, stop allowing pharmacutical companies/hospitals/doctors in general/etc engage in price gouging on their products/services, stop letting money hungry 'suits' at the insurance companies make medical decisions and leave that for the trained doctors."

Not giving an opinion one way or the other, but the above quote is pretty much what the President said in his speech last night.
 
can't speak about any other country but here in canada ( ontario ) it seems to work ok
call doctor, get appt, need to see specialist, if not life threatening might have to wait a bit
with myself, ( knee, shoulder etc ) might have waited 2-3 weeks to see ortho guy but was not crippled
wifey had some problems last fall ( blood cancer)
from family doctor, biopsy from surgeon to starting treatment at cancer centre was no more than 4 weeks so we can't complain
i am sure it is expensive no health care is cheap but is available to everyone , job or not
where it breaks down a bit is if you don't have a company plan, drugs, dental etc gets pretty pricey
my daughter does not have coverage & i find it funny, the dentist has 2 prices one for those with insurance & 1 for those without
my 2 ( canadian) cents worth
bob
 
Before our health care should even be touched or changed, congress needs to pay for their own health care out of THEIR OWN POCKET. Those guys (and a few gals) don't have a clue what health care needs because they get their free-for-life health care and benefits and they don't have a clue what needs to be changed. While campaigning, external_link claimed that all Americans would get the same health care plan that he has. He has backed away from that statement....at about 90 miles per hour. Do you think the plan that he wants to impose on Americans will be anything similar to the same plan that he has?
 
its %ascism , used to be a bad thing . i been looking over dsausa.org and really opened my eyes about the new movement.lucas
 
My heart doctor is from india. after a trip there he told me that there are some good hospitals ,but most people cant get in them when they need to ,so theres poverty and hopelessness among most in india..lucas
 
Everyone needs to stop and think. Do you REALLY want the government involved with health care. What program has it ever ran and with good results. NOT ONE. I mean look at the IRS. It is so screwed up they don't even know what the tax laws are. I am on S/S disability but according to the gov. I make two much money to get help from them. I have to wait two years before I can apply for medical help. So here is the great US government telling folks all will be covered. But folks like me are being told we will have to wait.
 
Correct!
In the population control plan of theirs it would have been okay to abort babies up to the age of two. That is two years from the time it was born.
(I am sure they have a different opinion now.)

(If they had not changed his mind how could they be considered by our president for any government job)

Unless of course they are ALL of the same mind.
 
This country has always had a mixture of "socialism" and capitalism beginning with Hamilton"s First Bank of the United States. Abraham Lincoln was an ardent "socialist" giving poor people public land under the Homestead Act. Why the rascal even gave public land to Land Grant colleges like Kansas State and even Purdue later.

I can think of many government programs that I want to keep: 1) Police Department 2) Fire Dept 3) Public Library 4) Dept of Defense 5) Public School System Kindergarten -Graduate School eg. Indiana University and Purdue 6) I rather enjoy my city water, sewer and trash collection. It might be time to turn off Rush Limbaugh and get some fresh air.

Ol Tom 43 Agnostic, abundant, Patriot
 
I fail to find any provision in the Constitution that delegates the power to provide health care to the Federal government.
 
Good For your people.

You might want to ask Liam Neeson what kind of excellent care his wife Natasha Richardson received. I would say to ask Natasha but because in there system they had to delay for tests she didn't make it.
 
Somebody below said.."The free market is still the best thing " That is excactly whats WRONG with the current system. At this point I dont care that I dont have Ins. It is hard enough for those who have it to afford and its gonna get worse for them. My plan for now is if I get sick, get fixed up and depending on how many tens of thousands of dollars I owe, pay cash or file for you know what. Call me what you like but be careful with the stereotypes. I was raised on a farmers income. My folks never took a handout for anything(nor would have) I work full time, paid off my truck and paid cash for my current car, have credit cards but NO credit card debt and am still paying on a very modest home. As said, if I should get sick. Ill decide how to pay when the time comes. My money is better in my bank than it is making a boat payment for a Ins. executive somewhere.
 
Probably because when the constitution was written if you didn't get well by yourself they just stacked you out by the road.
 
I hate it when facts get in the way but at the time of her injury, Richardson seemed to be fine and was able to talk and act normally. Paramedics and an ambulance which initially responded to the accident were told they were not needed and left.
 
The FREE market would be the best thing. Problem is our insurance is not just free market when they have State line restrictions and Federal mandates that force the insurance companies to include unintended items as well as forcing hospitals to treat every one that comes thru the doors even though they can not pay and or not legally here. How do they collect the difference between the payers and the non payers?
(HIGHER COSTS TO THE PAYERS)
That my friends is not FREE MARKET. That is BIG BROTHER controlled MARKET.
 
I agree, I want police n fire dept etc also BUTTTTTTTTT name one program big brother red tape fat cat government can run more efficient then the private industry was my point lol and these are MY opinions NOT some talk show, they may or may not agree with me, thats their problem not mine

Fun discussion, God Bless yall for your opinions

John T
 
More likely because when the Constitution was written, the fellows that wrote it were wary of an overly powerful Federal government.
 
But, that's how the Repugs describe everybody in the US having medical coverage, if you can't pay go to emergency.
 
They ARE all of the same mind. Many in his cabinet were, are card carrying menbers of communist/socialist organizations.
Jack
 
But some people have volunteer fire depts, Kenashaw has every head of household required to have firearm, ammo, and prove they know how to use it- gets 3/4 of them into a 'militia' and has 1/3 less crime than surrounding are. Public school system sounds good but why does the Catholic, Lutheran and Baptist school system have a higher graduation rate and more advanced schooling rate for students?
Why is external_link sending his kids to a Quacker school?
Some posters here on 'Kountry life' have their own wells and septic tanks, burn pit for trash, no utility tax for water. Don't really need that 'public' water, sewer, and tash service do you?
Dept of Defense seems to have been expanded from continental defense to world policeman/UN enforcer of political causes- go back to Militia like Swiss and Isreal and pull most troops out of rest of world trouble spots and concentrate on Border security, might save a lot of tax money and lives, change name back to War dept. Public library OK-lots of libraries have volunteers providing funds and equipment, some church's have their libraries available for public in church property, Salvation Army has open book area but is being cussed out by Freedom from Religion Foundation for having religious symbols on walls and teaching reading from a bible to poor welfare recieving kids- state funds to religious group is unconstitutional is their claim. Local Amish have their own schools and utilities, less trouble than Los Angeles Le Raza and Crips.
Choices made in California to provide public services- but now the California politicians are asking self reliant out of state taxpayers to support them in their services- Why not have State of California do like Utah or Dakotas instead? Texas could give them lessons on reducing prison cost, Maricopa County Sherrif has given good example of lowering county jail cost while reforming prisoners- or at least reducing comeback rate. RN
 
"Could you imagine if the Government raided all our 401Ks, out lawed savings, and forced us to live out our lives on SS alone.... "

Isn't that what Jessi James Bush did?
 
"at a cost of 1.5 TRILLION it would only address the needs of 1/3 or less of those who do not have any health care coverage."

If you were one of these what would you want done?
 
If anyone ever needed a remedial course in American History it is you! The term "promote the general welfare" is in the Preamble of the Constitution. The "necessary and proper" clause is in the body of the Constitution.

The Constitution sets up a POWERFUL central government with a strong executive. Hamilton and Madison(early on) argued for a strong central government to replace the Articles of Confederation. President Washington and Hamilton led a larger army than they had commanded against the British to suppress the Whiskey Rebellion in Pennsylvania. They set the precedent that States would be subordinate to the National Government.
 
Its interesting to read your post.Three times you say"Ive heard" once you say"I saw".Two of the objections you have are" etc, etc". Stop worrying about nothing its seems to be all hearsay anyhow.Remember the Bush plan for soc sec.Never happened.Remember nnalert health care plan ,never happened.Right now there are two categories insured and uninsured.Most who seek medical care without insurance dont pay. In my state 10% of my bill goes to cover that now .So whats going to change.NOTHING.
 
She fell on her head.Refused an ambulance.Medevac helicopters are actually invented in Canada.Nobody caught on to the seriousness of her injury until too late.Nearby Montreal has some of the worlds best surgeons.Blaming Canadian healthcare?Get real!
 
Did You know that placing blame in a civil debate does not add to the debate? It only upsets others. A difference of an opinion about the subject or added facts not yet concidered do add to a debate.

A person or persons can have different opinions and yet not be disagreeable towards others by calling names and placing the blame.
 
Yes, "promote" the common welfare, but "provide" for the common defense. If they had intended for the Federal government to "provide" for the common welfare, they would have said "provide". They certainly knew what the word meant.

As for "necessary and proper", Congress is only allowed to make such laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution the powers granted by the Constitution.

The Constitution may have set up a powerful central government, but it also sets up a very LIMITED central government. The States are only subordinate to the Federal government in those powers granted to it by the Constitution.
 
You still have an obligation to pay, even in the emergency room. Your preference seems to be that if you can't pay, someone else should pay in your stead.
 
No, oh foolish and uneducated tlak. It's because the Founders didn't intend for the government to take care of the people, we're supposed to take care of ourselves. What leads you to believe otherwise?

Awaiting your change of subject, for you have no rebuttal that can stand up to criticism and common sense. Call names like "Repugs" like you always do, talk about something else, but by all means, don't tell us how you really feel. We already know you're a communist.
 
Tom 43 and tlak, quite a silly pair of communists. To say that Hamilton and Madison were both proponents of a strong central government is farce, and so is your complete ignorance. Have you ever read the Federalists Papers? Of course you haven't. Both were opposed to the Bill of Rights. Do you know why? Of course you don't. So here's a little lesson for you. Read and become enlightened.

After the 1787 Constitutional Convention, there were intense ratification debates about the proposed Constitution. Both James Madison and Alexander Hamilton expressed grave reservations about Thomas Jefferson's, George Mason's and others' insistence that the Constitution be amended by the Bill of Rights. Those reservations weren't the result of a lack of concern for liberty. To the contrary, they were concerned about the loss of liberties.

Alexander Hamilton expressed his reservation in Federalist Paper No. 84, "(B)ills of rights ... are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution, but would even be dangerous." Hamilton asks, "For why declare that things shall not be done (by Congress) which there is no power to do? Why, for instance, should it be said that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given (to Congress) by which restrictions may be imposed?" Hamilton's argument was that Congress can only do what the Constitution specifically gave it authority to do. Powers not granted belong to the people and the states. Another way of examining Hamilton's concern: Why have an amendment prohibiting Congress from infringing on our right to picnic on our back porch when the Constitution gives Congress no authority to infringe upon that right in the first place?

Alexander Hamilton added that a Bill of Rights would "contain various exceptions to powers not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more (powers) than were granted. ... (it) would furnish, to men disposed to usurp, a plausible pretense for claiming that power." Going back to our picnic example, those who would usurp our God-given liberties might enact a law banning our right to have a picnic. They'd justify their actions by claiming that nowhere in the Constitution is there a guaranteed right to have a picnic.

To mollify Alexander Hamilton's and James Madison's fears about how a Bill of Rights might be used as a pretext to infringe on human rights, the Ninth Amendment was added that reads: "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." In essence, the Ninth Amendment says it's impossible to list all of our God-given or natural rights. Just because a right is not listed doesn't mean it can be infringed upon or disparaged by the U.S. Congress. The Tenth Amendment is a reinforcement of the Ninth saying, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." That means if a power is not delegated to Congress, it belongs to the states of the people.

Is there something you don't understand about "Powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution are reserved to the States or the People". Only one way to read and understand that. You can try to spin it any way you want, doesn't change the meaning.

You're a communist.
 
And that's the fallacy of saying you can use the emergency room for medical insurance. If you go there you better not have a nickel to your name.
 
Same point, all the vaccines and most cures were invented after their time, a bleeding, some vinegar potions and a saw was a DR. back then
 
Your daddy Bush walked all over the constitution, you didn't say much then. tootifruity
 
Hi Dick, I agree in part to what you are saying but let's put the blame where it is due the Social Security system is old and antiquated and was concieved in a time when people felt bad that they needed government help when bad health issues occurred and they need assistance to survive but over the years I've known more people than I can count that actually taught their children to get their pay in points so they could qualify for SS benefits I personally have paid in since I graduated from High School. I really think that us BBs were the saviour and the beast because when SS started my dad just had enough points to qualify at age 65 but not a problem because us BBs would help the deficit now we've gone from a provider to a load along with the freeloaders. IMHO
 
tlak, I and others really would like to have honest debates with you. Enlightened people will tell you that ylling louder, or using crass/crude language just proves that your arguments are weak and lacking facts.

I know I've said some things that I shouldn't have from time to time, but it's always in response to someone else. Like your constant "Repug" remarks, Jessie James Bush, etc.

When I call external_link a Socialist and a Communist, that's not name calling, I truly believe that's what he is. You may disagree, but that's how I feel.

I heard an interview he gave in Chicago in 2002. He said that the Bill of Rights is a list of negative rights. That it limited what the Federal government could do, (as was the intent of the Founders who were scared of an all-powerful government such as the one they fled in England). He said there needed to be a list of Positve Rights, what the government could do For you. That runs completely contradictory to the Constitution, and that is why I believe he is a communist. Facts.

I'd like to exchange emails and have serious discussions if you would.
 
I was making a point that we were already paying for illegal health care, and calling him JJBush has been my coined term for Bushes for some time, because every time one gets in office the banks get cleaned out.
And the other poster brought up illegals.
 
That's not true. I disagreed comepletely with the Perscription Drug legislation and said so. Even though it helped my Grandfather before he passed in March. That should tell you something about me. I stand by my principals. I loved my grandfather dearly, and I'm glad that he thought it was a good thing and relieved some of the stress he had. But that didn't make it right.

How much money would he have had if instead of putting all the money into social security that he did over his lifetime, (that he didn't nearly get back before he died even though he lived to 88), if he would've been able to invest that money as he saw fit? I know you, you'll say he would've lost it all in this recent economic downturn, but that's far from true. He started paying SS when it statrted, in the 1930's. The dow was at what, 300? If all that money had been put in an account that simply followed the stock market, he would've dies a millionaire. Think about that. He wouldn't have needed to collect SS, or Medicare, or have the government pay for his precriptions.

The government is inefficient. Most of what goes to Washington gets eaten up by the beaurocracies, don't you know that?

Daddy Bush, huh? Good one. Deep thought. Good fact. Nice argument.
 
And you called me a communist and one or two others on this board, so don't get all righteous.
Yelling would be with Caps, DA
Read other post, same as you I honestly believe Bush is a thief and his brother cleaned out the saving and loans.
Repug is my mistaken abbreviation for nnalert, but once I found out it irritates, I kept using it.
And I don't think we could have a discussion, because you're too set in your misinformed, wrong opinions.
 
So you say things just to irritate others, rather than engaging in honest open debate. Very mature. Is that what you've taught your son to do?

And I try to be very open-minded. I, like you, have my beliefs, but I'm willing to put them up against anyone elses and engage in sharing thoughts and ideas. I guess that scares you for some reason. Perhaps you just like to blame others for your life not turning out as well as you hoped it would? Someone must be taking advantage of you, right? Surely the decisions you've made have nothing to do with it. Mine did, and I own up to it.
 
So you've got money in the bank, and you CHOOSE not to have insurance, and will declare bankruptcy if you have a medical emergency. You are a very responsible person and a fine American. Bet your folks would be proud too.

Too bad the external_link plan will fine you for not having a healthcare insurance plan, $2,500!

How's that Hope and Change working out for you?
 
Now it says promote the general welfare.Dont you think if the founders were alive after all these years of improvements to health care that they would support health care for everyone?What I dont get is what do you propose to do with people that dont have health insurance,like you will be if you arent lucky as you get older?As it is now,if everybody was insured,it would cost you less for insurance and also to go to the doctor or hospital because your insurance wouldnt be paying double or triple for you now.
In a country that has as much prosperity as we do,all of us should be able to eat,and if we get sick go to the doctor,hospital,whatever.Anything less and you will stir up something you dont ever want to stir up.If you think it would be dumb to beat on a hornets nest with a stick,it would be way worse than that for people to starve,and not be able to go to the doctor when they get sick.There is no argument to it.Next week it could be you in the objectionable line that doesnt get health care,is that what you want?Start a class war and all of you that think you are alright are going to loose.Thats the way it works,it comes back on you.So today you are healthy,but because you didnt want to help your brother who was dying,now its you that doesnt get the help.I bet the founders would be for insurance for everybody,and if they werent it would surprise me.
Now I dont mean that people that wont work get real good food,or better treatment than workers.I mean they get food and medical treatment,which they do.I would rather live in a country that takes care of its people than one that gives trillions away to crooks that arent even in our country.Both sides are bad,but if they try to help,try to help them fix it instead of fight them like they are your worst enemy.Thats just as bad if not worse than they are.
 
One good thing for you to do,and keep an open mind about it,is watch the movie Sicko.The USA,even though we have good doctors and hospitals is I think 37th in Health Care.Way behind every country you called a dismal failure for their health care programs.Not true.We are the failure because of all the stuff you see in that movie,and because of the attitude and propaganda that keeps making the problem worse on both sides.
 
If you take a stroke while traveling in the US, you're probably going to want treatment... can be a long drive home in a box.

Rod
 
You dodged the question, and you know it. Thousands of Canadians come to the US to have simple procedures performed that they can't receieve there, or have to wait too long to get. If your system is so superior, why must they come here? The answer is simple, your system is not superior, nor is it adequate, otherwise your citizens wouldn't be coming here. Hospitals are being built all along our northern border to accomodate all the Canadians coming here. See how free markets work here? A need is realized and our entrepeneurs fill that need. If external_link's plan goes through, that won't happen anymore. You're people will stop com ing here. But for now, they come in droves, and you know it. Deflect all you want.

Pathetic that you would try to spin your answer as you did.
 
I'd love to know who all these people are that go the the US for their healthcare?
Must be I'm too far away from the border because I don't know a single one.

Correction. I did know one. She died anyway. Probably broke.
She could have received her cancer treatment here. It would have done as much for her as the expensive treatment she got in Boston. She's still in the graveyard.

I'm sure there are people who go south for certain treatments. There's also some private clinics here for certain things... but I think you'd be drawing a line through a gray area as to whether these are procedures that are needed or procedures that are ~wanted~.
I guess if you want to pay for something today that you could have next week, already paid for by taxes... well that's your choice.

Rod
 
Help my brother that was dying? Tell you what happened there. My BIL was dying, liver failed. He held on for a couple years, and every once in awhile we'd send him a check to supplement what he was getting from his disability benefit. We also brought his family a few bags of food whenever we were in town, and when we left, we emptied our fridge and took it over to him. After all that, he tells my wife that people in my profession are stingy, and never help those in need. She got pretty upset about it, I didn't, because I wasn't helping him to earn his praise. I was helping him because he needed help. Another BIL committed suicide many years ago. We helped out his widow until she remarried, and we continue to help out his sons, who've had some real problems growing up without a dad. His oldest son thanked us after he spent some time in prison, because we were the only ones who wrote to him or sent him gifts for his bday and Christmas. When folks are down and out, we'll do what we can to help, but we sure as heck don't appreciate the idea that we should be forced at threat of prison to help others. That's not compassion, that's fear. And those who would compel us to help others aren't compassionate either, they're tyrants. You want to compare percentage of income given to charity? We've been giving about 10-15%, what level do you think the Overlord external_link and his sidekick Crazy Joe nnalert give? I'll clue you in, it ain't anywhere near that. Don't lecture me about helping my fellow man.
 
Those vaccines and cures were invented without the help of the government, too. I would expect if the government takes away the profit motive (what you call price gouging), there won't be very many new vaccines nor very many new cures.
 
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