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Unions...one more time

A

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
Most of the anti-union posts I've seen are from foplks who have never been a member of a union...or, if they were a member, never went to union meetings or otherwise participated in the business of the union, then complained because the union didn't listen to them...or, if they did participate, went home sniveling because their viewpoint wasn't supported by the majority of the membership, and was voted down.

Or maybe they never worked a non-union job, and got fired because the boss was having a bad day and you did nothing wrong. Or never worked a job where you were passed over for promotions because you didn't attend the boss' church, or you weren't the same political party as the boss [even if you kept your politics to yourself at work].

Yup, I've heard of religious discrimination these days, right here in the good ol' US of A. I used to hear a non-Catholic businessman who was a neighbor complain that whenever he lost a potential customer to an openly Catholic competitor in the monument business that the competitor had "rattled the beads" on him. I was once referred to a chiropractor by a minister at a local Church of Christ, who told the doc to give me his best rate because "he's one of us." And on the job, I've seen people who were fellow church members with the boss who got promotions, raises, and special consideration [extra time off, "excused" for coming in late/leaving early] that no one else did. So it happens...but under a union contract, you won't lose your job for pointing out [via filing a grievance] that you weren't treated the same as the other worker.

Have unions ever asked for more than they deserve? Yeah, certainly...the same way a used car dealer often overprices some popular models. Just like the car dealer, they price things high so they have room to negotiate lower and to settle for what they really want. As long as the union's bargaining committee brings the company proposal back to the rank-and-file to vote on it, then it's the members, and not the leadership of the union, who are determining policy.

Like all other human endeavors, NO union is perfect. But not all unions are the way the anti-union folks portray them here. I've been union, and I've been non-union...and I prefer to work for a union. Sure, sometimes the undeserving are protected by the union; but usually, had the supervisor or the company followed procedures, which are spelled out in the contract for both labor and management to see, management would have prevailed and the union would've backed off.
 
My friend is ------ that the union guarantees that the lazy good for nothing teacher that wouldn't have a job if it weren't for the union gets paid the exact same amount that she does with 4 "Teacher of the Year" awards on her wall.



Any "boss" that fires good employees because he is having a bad day won't be the boss for long in any business.
 
I think the union sucks. i am union, the lazy no good for nothing makes just as much as the ones there to earn their paycheck. If you think favortism cannot exist in a union you are dreaming. why are you beating your chest for the union? do you see where they have taken the US Auto industry? every time I look at my check and see my union dues gone I feel sick. They do nothing for me, I go to work every day and EARN my money. I PAY for protection for the DEADBEATS, and they earn as much as I do. No, sorry, cannot pull me into your fantasy land pal.

When I get the little slick flyers in the mail showing the union "bosses" in Vegas or Atlantic City at "conventions" with their manicured nails and their 3000 dollar suits on I really wanna puke. I pay for their life of luxury by breaking my back every day. they laugh at us every time they get a paycheck.
 
Notice that the "Pay Czar" that CEObama wants to impose is not going to regulate the pay of executives in the unions being bailed out by the taxpayers.
 
I will say this and I live in the Detroit area---
THE UAW SUCKS !!!!!!!

The UAW has ruined GM. And so have the overpaid engineers, and lazy clowns in the company.
The Skilled trades are the worst. To sum it up quickly....
The UAW got most of everything they wanted and they priced themselves out of the market.
Now it is time to pay the piper and oops----Many are crying in their beer.

The unions had their time and now the time is up.
 
The unions have killed themselves. So what more do you need to hear. Refusing to back down on demands for a company that is going under is very stupid to me.
 
EVERYTHING that is happening is UN f--king believeable to me. They are using the Constitution as a urinal cake. We have more 'czars" than the ex USSR ever did. These 'czars" are only under bho...they answer to noone else, circumventing the legislative branch of govt completely. How, WHY is noone standing up and telling this administration to stop? THIS IS CRIMINAL according to our own constitution.
 
one of the best days of my life was getting out of the brotherhood of operating enginerrs after 7 yrs........ havent missed them at all.
 
Odd how the anti union people have the low paying/no benefit jobs. And the pro union people have higher paying jobs with better benefits. Yet the people poorest working people who need unions dislike unions the most.
Looks like class envy and jealousy.Some people really get annoyed when they get paid less for doing the same job as somebody else.
 
Most of the time the poorest working people will do a better job and complain less than high dollar employees who think the world owes them something. DH
 
my dislike for the union has nothing to do with class envy.

I make 27.75 hr and dont have the union holding its hand out everyweek nor do I need to hide behine the union to keep my job.

I am free to show up at a job site in the am and do whats needed to complete the job with out some union BA giving me $hit cause the beam that was in my way and I just moved was a laborers job.

you can stick your union
 
Odd how you're so often completely wrong and/or out of your mind.

MOST union advocates are in cush jobs, but wouldn't be capable of making it in a competitive arena.

I DETEST unions. They've destroyed the ability of this country to compete in gobal markets. They protect dead azz non motivated types in jobs where 10 people do the work of one.

I DO NOT have a low paying job without benefits. Quite the contrary. I work in a field where ABILITY, AMBITION, and RESULTS establish your pay grade.

By the way, I spent nearly 30 years in a union job. Same benefits go to the worst, laziest, most inefficient dead azz as was the case with the best employees on the job. I was SICK of working hard just to support union officials who were prime examples of the dead wood, and to cover for the poor employees who were always the most vocal supporters of union "skilled labor".

Unions as they exist today are the biggest scam ever created.
 
I see why you would think what you wrote.Here they are some of them now talking bad about the unions.All they needed to do was look at how things were before unions and see they were wrong,but no,they think that they know everything.They answer questions with the same attitude,and you can see they dont know any better.They wont learn either.Weeks and months go by and its the same every time,blah,blah,blah,know it all,blah,blah.Its the same ones too.Im starting to see what the drill instructor was talking about years ago when he said smack them up beside the head with a 2 by 4 to get their attention first before you can teach them something.Also years of brainwashing by crooked politicians has helped"form"their opinion for them too.Unions arent perfect,but they are all working people have to keep from being slaves.Big money is who is causing the problems we have,politicians are helping them,and its corruption causing problems in all of it including unions.There is corruption in churches,city hall,government,unions,non union shops,everywhere.When there arent any unions any more and you cant tell any difference between the United States and China I wonder who they will blame then?I bet they still wont see it was their own fault.
 
Here's how I see it. If I were to try and charge my customers a union wage for my guys work, I would be in business for about another year and that's it, I would probably lose most of my work. The 37th year would be it. The work would then move to another business that was charging a lower, possibly more fair wage. I think that's what is happening on a larger scale when people unfortunately lose their manufacturing jobs and the jobs go somewhere else. You have to charge a fair wage for what you do and produce, otherwise someone else will do it for less. I've know several UAW workers with no education blow smoke in my guys face and tell them how great they are and how much money they make. I told my guys that it won't last forever, go ahead and try to get a job there if you want. Those other guys have no job now, and I still pay my guys every week. Sorry, but my 2 cents. I've been disgruntled ever since a union laborer yelled at me when I picked up a broom to help him 15 years ago. That's not how I was raised.
 
You gotta give em credit in the Government Motors Bailout, the Unions got the best of it,,,,,,bondholders worse,,,,,,,,and us taxpayers THE SHAFT LOL of course, it was payback time for BHO to them for their votes, what else did you expect......

John T
 
We'll see how long the UAW lasts now. I, and many people I know, will not buy a GM or Chrysler product until the government is completely removed from the equation. And I'd bet that never happens.

My family has always been GM and IH, for 80 years or more. I'm very proud of my Chevy van that has been repair-free for 312,000 miles. Still has original brakes, serp belt, everything but tires. Never thought I would say this, but I'm going to Ford, at least until they go under, which I bet they won't now. They're going to be getting a lot of new customers.

And by the way, I make, or made, a lot of deliveries inside Chevy and Chrysler plants here in Indiana, in Kokomo to the 4 different transmission plants, and to the GM truck assembly plant in Ft. Wayne. Always saw guys jackin around not working. Playing cards, or checkers, or whatever. And these weren't guys on break. I'd often have to go back to the same place multiple times per day, and the same kooks were there, not working but surely getting paid. Can't tell me any different, I know.
 
Trucker 40 -- the part you don"t get and will probably never understand is simple -- freedom -- that is what seperates the US from China and Russia. I truly pity people such as yourself who are unable to make it in the world without big goverment or a Union holding your hand and making your way for you. I have always worked for the going rate and always made a living. I do not give a percentage of my pay to some lying, crooked parasites who call themselves ""Labor Leaders"". The only times in my life when I have had an income reduction or lowered wages was caused by psuedo socialist politicians taking my money in higher taxes of one form or another. The current regime will surpass them all for corruption, fraud, mismanagement and waste before it is all said and done.
 
Hi Red, I can't see how Ford is going to be able to compete once GM and Chyslern are free from their debt and Ford still has to honor all its legacy costs. Your experience with your van indicates Chevy knows how to build great cars and trucks. If next time you are buying would you really pay five to ten thousand dollars more for the Ford offering ? What bothers me in this pro union, anti union, auto makers bail out debate, is a close look at the non union non US brand makers in the US BMW, Nissian, Honda, Toyota Mercedes ect is missing. Most of these are located in south eastern states. To attract those manufactures the states provided billions of dollars in grants, training assistance, loan guarentees, tax breaks and other assistance. I do not hear any of the anti union, anti bailout people complaining about the state tax payer subsidy to non union car manufactures. How is the grape business going, has Missouri replaced California as the #1 wine producer ?
 
I think the whole argument is pretty obsolete, at least as far as manufacturing goes. I think all of us would be surprised at how much of our manufacturing has been outsourced. And unions are only a small percentage of the workforce. The biggest threat to American jobs isn't unions, it is Pedro, or Hop Sing willing to work for pennies per hour.
 
I dont get freedom?Thats what separates us from China and Russia?I just said that if it wasnt for unions you couldnt tell the difference between us and China.Guess what,history supports that if you would just read how this country was before unions.We are going to be China without unions.Now what are you going to say?That you would have all that you have and live as good as you do in a world that had 5 year old kids working barefoot in a factory 16-18 hours a day?I get freedom very well.Non union life in the United States looked like China.Read it yourself.People were still being used as slaves in the textile industry in the South in 1910 and after.Read it yourself.Child labor laws and unions made the middle class and prosperity and freedom for working people in the United States along with soldiers carrying a gun who fought in wars to make us free to be able to have child labor laws and unions and a government that helped working people.I know you think you are right,but you have been deceived and led back down the highway to slavery.
 
You are correct that many states in the South provided tax breaks, job training assistance, undeveloped land etc. to attract auto makers and the jobs they would provide. The reason people do not whine about these perks that were given is because they have largely paid for themselves in increased payroll tax and local business and sales tax revenue. Many Politicians, mostly nnalert and Black, did loudly complain in the early days that ''Big Corporations'' were being given unfair advantages by their ''cronies'', these people have since had to eat crow.
 
Why is it always the workers that get the blame for a company going bankrupt or overseas? How about all of the salaried people ( management, and such ) How can their wages, bonuses, perks, be justified? Why not bring them down to nonunion companies ( Honda, Toyota, Nissan, )?
 
So LLA, I guess that you find the free market place offensive, and think government should use centeral economic planning and belive in confiscation of private property for the public good. Much of that undeveloped land belonged to owners that did not want to sell and they recieved far less than market value. You communists are few and far between these days. Anything for increasing tax revenue to the government so they can provide more services, that is what you
believe in.
 
trucker40,your comment about the drill instructor,the military basically brain washes soldiers during basic training,the premise being you don't have time to think for yourself,you need to perform as trained without thinking.I have nothing against this,just stating it is brain washing of sorts. bill m.
 
Well sure,thats right.How else could they get you to perform together like a machine?I think he was referring to a little fine tuning of the machine to get it working the way he wanted it to.Sort of like fixing a carburetor with a sledge hammer.
 
You certainly have a way with (twisting) words. I believe a good, indoctrinated nnalert such as yourself would call that ""spin"". All States and most local goverments engage in so called economic development these days,mostly harebrained schemes to buy votes from the ignorant. I don"t usally agree with any of it and have never voted for a proposal or candidate that espoused using public money to subsidize private enterprise but, there are cases where these schemes have paid back to the local communities in jobs which in turn incresed the tax revenues beyond what was spent. I am also not in favor of California style property confiscation, thats why I live in Louisiana. Since you felt confident to tell me what I believe in I will wish you good health while you squander your grandchildrens future blindly following external_link and your hometown hero Pelosi.
 
been 25 yrs now with out a union and my standard of living is great.

its also a great feeling when you dont have the union holding their hand out for 3% of you pay.

you can stick your union
 
About those "UAW workers with no education"...

That's the EMPLOYER'S FAULT, for not putting MINIMUM STANDARDS in force as part of their hiring criteria. At the UAW plant where I made frames for Ford Explorers, a high-school education was a MINIMUM to get in the door [diploma or GED was required]. THEN there were the written tests on math and verbal ability...then, after hire but while still a probationary employee, we had to go to a 5-day MIG welding school [40 hours], and had to pass the welding tests to keep our jobs. Then, once on the plant floor, we had to prove we could still do the job under assembly-line conditions, or we were OUT. LOTS of probationary employees didn't survive the 60-day probation period.

So if unqualified, uneducated employees were the norm, it was because the EMPLOYER allowed it. The plant where I worked did a pretty good job of screening out the uneducated posers and losers. Sorry the employer you refer to had LOWER STANDARDS than where I worked, but it certainly wasn't the UAW's fault. Lay the blame where in belongs...on low standards set by the EMPLOYER. The UAW plant where I worked set higher standards, and the employees got NO union representation until they survived the probation period.
 
I did not twist your words, I only explained what they ment. I find it amazing that some one from Louisiana, given the amount of mutual aid from other states and the feds that came to your state after Katrina, would have your attitude when in reality you are a welfare state with not much going for it except government subsidies. North Dakota is a bigger energy exporter than you are now. California handels its fires and earth quakes mostly by itself.
 
I've never worked under a union. But unions are the resason I never worked under them. Reason being the companies I've worked for paid well and treated the workers right so we wouldn't need a union. Unions get in the door for one reason and that's poor management.

I've heard folks say outsourcing was caused by unions. Better look at the figures. All of our textile mills are gone and most were non-union as well as most jobs that went across the borders.

The auto ind. fell because of gas prices, over spending by our gov. the last 8 years and laws that were change or ignored over thos 8 years. China exceeded the trade agreement by 631 times by 2003. The president could have stopped that with the stroke of a pen. He couldn't because he was borrowing money from China and had to let them do what they wanted to keep the wasted money flow going. Once the jobs were gone the tax base was gone and so the entire nation fell to it's knees. Car makers would still be going strong if folks had money to spend. China and the Arabs have the money now. So don't blame a union for this mess.
 
You've started a discussion here without Tom43's input so all responses are wrong right from the get-go.
 
I'll give my 2 cents again:
I have worked non-union and union for the past 17 years with the State of Michigan. I have a degree and consider myself a pretty average American. My last union gave my union dues to ACORN which I would not give money to if I had any say in it! I didn't like the fact that my union would give money to the things that I'm against and I had no say in it.
I have been very suprised being a farming site, how many people are union nnalert on here. Farmers are businessmen which should like low taxes for business and farms.
 

Another union post. Crying to a i'net boards won't change the trend that unions are a sinking ship. For good reason your numbers are now a fraction of what they once were. Unions have strangled too many American manufacturing jobs.

After over 35 yrs in the workforce I can say unions are bad for American manufacturing. Most who have seen union and non union shops agree. Just imagine your employees playing checkers while your paying them top wages while other jobs aren't getting done because someone didn't show up, or sales are down.
 
Trucker40 you said it yourself "child labor laws". There are laws now to protect workers, so why give a portion of you paycheck to someone to do what is provided free of charge? Oh, I'm sorry I am not in a union so I am stupid. Please forgive me.
 

Ha - Unions diehards are Funny stuff. Your statments that non-union labor make less money is wrong.

Case in point: My company had both union and non-union plants making the same product and workers made the same money and benefits. Been here 35 yrs.

Here's the difference: Union plants took a lot more employees to make less product. Union plants used the same technology for for over 50 yrs because they resisted any change. Getting anything new done at the union plants was almost impossible while the non-union plants innovated, upgraded, and became leaders in technology.

With a little newer technology the company was recently able to consolidate all manufacturing to the non-union plants. So now the checker playing union members can play checkers full time. Of course they won't be getting pay checks.

Here's another fact: Non-union laborers have more jobs.
Unions are just bad for American manufacturing. I've learned that first hand.

Same thing in the auto industry. Non-union American labor beats the pants off union labor (see Honda, Toyota). There is simply no need for unions anymore. Hopefully they will continue to die off.
 
One thing you need to remember,the unions ,in any union shop I have ever worked in, dont run the company,In every contract I have ever read,and being on the bargaining commitee I read a lot,the company always had what we called "article 5" which said,the company will do what ever it wants,The union dont get a thing that the company dont agree to,I also worked in a few non union shops and liked them to,but if a bosses nephew comes along,you can lose you job no matter how good you were at it
 
The joke about the 2X4 up against the side of the head goes way, way back to era of the mule teams. It's just a joke. Anyway, your snide comments about military basic training shows a gross degree of ignorance on your part. Those drill instructors have a job to do, a limited amount of time to do it, and they do a first class job every time. If it hurts your poor little feelings that they don't have time to say please, tough. They save lives. So, you propose going to war with a bunch of people straight out of civilian life who "think for themselves"? They'd all get killed.
 
Im not in a union now either.I said-if we dont have unions and we go back to the way things were before unions,in 20 years this will look like China here.I dont think you or anybody else is stupid for not being in a union.I do think slaves dont get respect,people that stand up do.You can argue for or against unions all you want.Still,without unions,this will look like China before long and you can believe that.
 
Grandad passed in March, kind of took the wind out of my sails to get the grapes established, maybe in the future.

As far as Ford, they may just get a big influx of business from people not wanting to buy a G.I. car at any price. Guess we'll see. There's been some polling already to that affect.

Looks like your state is going from bad to worse. Like most. I've pretty much lost hope in the Great Experiment. I think it was Jefferson that said the country would have a revolution every 25 years. Probably would've been better off if we had.
 
Ah, that's right. Take a look at the post I just made on gun control. Just got an "Emergency" email from my Dad. Big hunter, he.
 
You are absolutely right. I also work for a union and have worked no union jobs. It takes 2 to make a union work. The union and the company have to agree on a contract. The company has the right to disagree. It is not the unions fault GM is in trouble. The company let them get away with too much. The union asked for it but the company let it happen.

There have been things we have tried to get in negotioations and the company said "it ain't going to happen." But there have been things that they had absolutely no problem with.

The economy is tough and these companys and politicians will use every excuse they can to pad there pockets. The unions killed no one. The company ceo's did. We all know they can all make more money if they can source your job out to China, Mexico, or Taiwan. The Union workers and the non union workers have nothing to do with it. It is the fact that none of us would work for .50 an hour and a bowl of rice.
 
Sorry to hear about your grandad, my father also passed away this spring. Oh yes, things are getting interesting around here. We are taking health insurance from 1 million children, letting all the pot heads and thousands of other criminals out of prison, all those police and CHP helecoptors are being moth balled, all that human service stuff like adoption, foster parenting and job training is gone, we are closing the state parks, expect a long wait in the emergency room as many hospitals are shutting down, road maintanence-forget it. There is talk of selling San Quentin prison and other state properties.You don't want to get a traffic ticket.Now days the courts are completely funded by penalities and fees-15 mph over the limit will set you back about $500. The strange part is I am making more money than ever. As you know I am a firefighter. Every time some one retires and they don't replace him I get more overtime. The county has ordered everyone to take 2 days a month off. They call it Mandatory Involuntary Absence. We actually put MIA on out time sheets. I am not making this up. Then they pay someone else overtime to fill your position. You can't work over time when you are MIA though. My wife is a public health nurse, same thing where she works. My unions position, that the county needs to cut expenses, and the only way to do that the state is doing, that is to cut services, falls on deaf ears. To bad you didn't get the vines in. This spring I was up in North Dakota and SCS/NRCS planted 3 miles of wind breaks on my farm, I also hand planted 450, to replace the ones that died over the winter in the rows I planted over the last 3 years. I actually bought a camera and took pictures of everything, but I think it fell of the frame of the Versitle tractor and I air seeded it into a 300 acre wheat field.
 
If Tom43 shows up, we'll offer him a remedial course so he can catch up...OK?

And if he doesn't...even better!
 
Like the man said, the unions will benefit the people that understand they have no leverage within a company without one.

And, in the field construction biz...the best work is done by union contractors....as an example,

Years ago I was reading a union mag in the lunch trailer. It showed a large construction site that was in the initial stages of hangin the steel. Brown and Root a scab outfit was the major contractor. So it was a before and after kind of article...the first was a shot of all the girders, headers and all the erected steel that B & R had hung up in record time. The second shot was the next day....completly tore down, looked like one of those german citys afte the allies had bombed it.

R & B had got the steel up fast by only installing a few fasteners at a time. So one night the wind came up and the scab operator forgot to set the boom lock. The wind turned the rig into the structure and it all came down.

I've worked (boilermaker mechanic) the right to work states, kansas is one....and believe me the differnence in workmanship is vastly different.
 
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