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Cost difference / Old vs New

B

bruster

Member
I could never see where the efficiency was gained vs the cost of new machinery

I'm not talking large acreage farm tracks, but small farms, PYO operations, non specialized use where older equipment (pre- 70's)does just as well.

Here in the east (OH, PA, WV)most small farms are 200a. or less, but all of thre auctions I read show a lot of farms selling with equipment less than 10 to 15 years old. Seems like a waste of money, or am I wrong?
 
Its a tough call, if you work full time and farm on the side, you don't have time to tinker and fix old stuff all the time.

On the same note, making payments to the bank isn't my idea of profitable farming either.

Sometimes new pencils out vs bringing something worn out up to snuff. Say a 10 ft disk, you can buy one from the 60's for 800$, but if next year it needs all new discs and half the bearings, and you are paying a mechanic to do the work, you are at the price of a newish disc.
 
About 4 years ago I started from scratch farming about 40 acres. It's an after work hobby for me. Almost all the equipment I purchased was cheap antique fixer-upper stuff. My father-in-law is a retired mechanic and he helps me with repair and maintenance.

There is no way I could afford this hobby if I had to purchased new equipment.
 
Good question with all variations of good and correct answers.

Nancy and I have a small "hobby" farm operation.

After leaving the banking industry, I vowed never to be "owing" anyone again.

We pay cash for all tractors, equipment, materials, seed, fertilizer, etc.

Newest tractor - my dad's 83 Ford 2810.
Oldest tractor - "Uncle Earl" our JD 39B.

Both pros and cons of using old equipment.

I enjoy working on the "antique" equipment.

An old <a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos190.htm">millwright</a> once taught me to never tear up more than you can fix.

Due mainly to time constraints, some mechanic work is done by a professional mechanic.

In our small operation, high dollar equipment can not be financially justified.
 
A few years ago I saw a bunch of the little offset Farmalls for sale at a local truck farm. I stopped to look at them and the farmer came up to talk to me. He was an older Japanese fellow, and he told me he had been farming that place for about 40 years and was retiring. His farm was about 150 acres, and he had 6 or 8 Farmall Cubs, Super As, 140, 230, etc, a couple Allis Gs and a big Case for any heavy tillage. I had quite a long talk with him about farming as we compared his truck farm with my Dad's grain and potato farm. For truck farming, it appears you can make a go of it with older equipment, but most of the larger farms around here (mostly dairy, hay, vegetables and flowers) are using newer equipment.

By the way, the old Japanese farmer sold most his tractors to people living within a couple miles, and they are still in use in little truck farms of about 5-10 acres.
 
Here in the east (OH, PA, WV)most small farms are 200a. or less, but all of thre auctions I read show a lot of farms selling with equipment less than 10 to 15 years old.


=================================================

The question is, why are they selling?
 
just figure it this way,and it may help.horsepower=speed,never more true than in farming/tillage operations,out west where farms can be thousands of acres you need speed,or you just flat dont have enough time to get your crops in/out when needed.a farmall cub will plow just as well as a 200 hp versitile,just slower.the less time you have,the more hp you need to get work done,if you have all the time you need a 20 hp tractor will do it also.truck/vegetable farming is just a generally slower paced type of farming where you bring in one crop,then another etc.your busy most of the time with different things but it just naturally slower.if you have 5000 acres of wheat ready to combine and storms are forcast,you need speed and effieciency ,reliability to get the job done now!which is why it pays to have new/modern equipment.if your tractor breaks when your digging potatoes for example you can just leave them in the ground and fix it with little loss.believe it or not,even our old tractors were a big time saver once,the average time in 1898 to make one bushel of corn start to finish from plowing to harvest was over 4 hours per bushel,today its way less than 15 mins on most farms.wheat per bushel in the same time frame was 2hrs vrs 4 min.and i'm sure their is some beating this by a bunch today!
 
I'd say it makes a difference if it's more of a hobby or if it's your only job and how big you are. Plus, labor costs comes into play if you're paying not only their hourly rate, but insurance, state and fed taxes, etc. Larger equipment may mean greater effeciency and hopefully less labor costs. I bought a fancy (read expensive) machine that only delivers mulch out the side into my guys wheelbarrows. Yes it cost a lot and may look like an un-needed purchase from the outside, but I lessened my labor cost greatly. It basically does the shoveling of 75,000# (semi full) of mulch all day, every day. Saving the money on labor outweighs the yearly cost of the machine. That's what I think it boils down to, my 2 cents.
 
It was standard practice for the Japanese truck farmers around Tacoma and Seattle to have about a dozen Super A's or AC- G's, each with a different implement attached, so no time was wasted changing implements. I talked to one of my customers who was selling out about 20 years ago, and he said everyone used to kid his neighbor about "those silly little G's"- but said neighbor was getting the last laugh, as neighbor was getting more than twice as much apiece for his G's than my customer was getting for his Super A's.

Don't even recognize the area anymore- truck farms are gone, condos and apartments in their place.
 
how about depreciation for taxes. When you can no longer depreciate an implement for tax reasons you buy some else and get rid of the old
 
Mike, this is the place just south of Kent on West Valley Highway, between Kent and Smith Bros Dairy, if you're familiar with the area. He had his tractors set up as you describe, most were hi-crop, some had axle extensions, all were cosmetically rough, but ran good. I had a wonderful time talking to the guy, and he liked to talk farming to whoever would listen. As I was leaving, his daughter thanked me for spending some time with her Dad, I told her it was my pleasure. I was about an hour late getting back to work after that long lunch.
 
could be lots of reasons,anything from death/retirement to tax write offs.believe it or not for most real full time farmers old equipment doesnt make much sense.us hobby type farmers can afford to buy old stuff if it breaks we just use it worn out or patch it together with whatever.a person who uses this same stuff making aliving does not have the time for magor repairs.our time =enjoyment, their time = money broken eqipment to us is a inconvenience,to them it lost time and income.
 
This is an issue I dealt with 7 years ago. I had a 53 SuperH and bought a 168 Acre 1896 farm to go around it. (That is 100% true according to my wife.) I have been babying the SH for 20 years but it is really a tractor that you can work with and that is supported by my real rancher/farmer friends. Two years into the purchase I was really putting some hours on the old gas burner and I realized that I was spending a lot of time keeping it running and making sure it would start and run reliably. Since my place is 40 minutes from home it became important that she would start and run when I got there after work. Well the fact is it became apparent that it was not as reliable as a newer deisel same size engine etc. After looking at 20 year old JD (20 series) they were as expensive as a new MF or Ford/New Holland. I sucked it up paid a 240 off in 2 years and now have 2 fine tractors, both work great, 1 I can set up as a spray rig all summer (the SH) and the other is there for the more mundane work. Your experience may be different but the older rig took more effort to keep up but when running is as much tractor and maybe more than the newer one. My $.02
 
farm lingo. Generally a small farm that plants vegetables, fruit, melons, etc. Mostly sold in town at farmers' market.
 
Along that line, when I see expensive new compact tractors on tv ads using a loader to haul 1 or 2 small bales or firewood it looks impractical to me. Okay for a doctor and his hobby.
 
Read the Harley thread below.


Even if it only sees a bit of use the little compact is probably a better place for your money than a other big toy like a bike or a boat.
 
Did some research on the web and came up with one definition of a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_farming">truck farming</a> for you.
 
Umm Why would I have to spend my money on one or the other? I could actuslly save some of it couldn't I?
 
You could.

But I have my doubts as to how much those dollars will be worth in 6-12 months. Even China doesn't want them anymore.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/2815157/Is-China-quietly-dumping-US-Treasuries.html


http://www.nwprogressive.org/weblog/2006/01/is-china-dumping-dollar.html

And those aren't right wing black helicoptor sites by any stretch.
 
Good point. we're in unchartered water and you may very well be right. Never thought of those kinds of things as "savings". Speaking of that, I've had a little over $1000 in a bank savings account. Every quarter the bank sends a statement that they've paid about 12 cents in interest- less than the cost of the stamp to send the statement!
 

nm
_upload_2008_08_a_truck_grows_in_sacramen_plantTruck081808.jpg
 
BF,I if those farms are anything like the ones around Spokane,thirty years ago, that must be a beautiful area.
 
It would depend on the situation. If you're pressed for time that you don't have, then that gain in efficiency can be rather important. Once you get to the point that you're putting 3-500 hours per year on a tractor, I think you'll find that owning a new one is just as cheap as fixing an old one. I've always though that it was pretty much a wash in terms of operating cost. You trade depreciation for parts....
The downside of that scheme is that when you're installing your parts, the work is not getting done and crops may well be getting lost in the field. That's the hidden cost of old gear... and that can be a HUGE cost in time sensitive operations.

On the other hand, if you've gone to the new high tech tractors with Tier III emissions, well... good luck in that department. I think a lot of that stuff has more downtime than the old stuff, and this is BIG DOLLAR problems because it gets carted off to the dealer for repairs.
For me, that would be a grand each way on a truck... so I'm content with the older stuff that's easy to fix right here.
What I would prefer to do is have a bit more stuff from the mid-80's up to early 2000's as it's still realtively simple and easy to fix yet it gives most of the features of the newer gear. In some cases the older gear has a higher specification...

Rod
 
Well it depends on alot of things. Some people have nice things on the farm just like some people have nice trucks they don't need, they like to look good. I have a small farm and can not pencil out new equipment. When every thing is right I can have my corn planted in less than a day. Most of the time I look at big operators and can not figure why they would need all the things they have. Then this spring came around. While I was grease'n my 6 row planter in the drive way yesterday, neigbor next hill over was running 3 brand new kinze 24 row planters. So far this spring we have had about 5 days where we could plant corn and most of what's been planted is going to be replanted. If a person had a few thousand acres to plant this year a new big planter would pay pretty quick.

Dave
 
Fuel costs, loans, leasing acreage if they don't own enough

Dad and I plowed 60a, up until 7 years ago with a W-6 pulling a 3 bottom JD, and both were bought in 68 for $800 (they only plow 35a. yearly now)and the only expenses besides fluids & filters were drive tires and plow points
 
For me it's about pickups but for a guy farming it's got to be the same with his tractors. I'm self employed so my tax lady tells me when to buy a pickup not the odometer. Can drive a new pickup and pay a payment or an old pickup and pay more taxes. It's not quite a wash but like Rod says time is important too.
As in; stuff doesn't break when you need it to.
 
Well I bought a 22 hp Kubota, and it's been a great tractor. With a FEL, 3point hitch, 5'mower, remote hydraulics, and rear PTO. With 3a. of lawn (it's a old hilly farm yard, with flower gardens EVERYWHERE) I've had it for 11 years, and no troubles with 1655 hours
 
Trucks are a waste when some young people cover the bed, blow hundreds on big diameter wheels with rubber bands for tires, and a stereo that you hear 2 blocks away. For what?!? After 5 years, what kind of equity value is that?
 
I was a millwright once. Local 548 in St Paul.
Read the following in an old book about millwrighting - can still quote it:
"So leisurly were the motions of a millwright, as he pared away for hours on a single wooden gear, that it was said that a drop of a millwright's sweat would kill a toad."
I didn't find the quote to be terribly accurate...
 
Still less drop in initial value than a new tractor I would think.

Buy a new tractor and see what you can sell it for in 6 - 12 months.
 
Everybody spends there money on differant things. Some buy a big fancy house they don't need, some buy boats and snowmobiles they don't need, some buy Corvettes they don't need, some buy new tractors they don't need. As long as you don't owe me any money, I don't care what you spend your money on.
 
Every situation is different.

Been to auctions where the folks are older and moving to town or just selling the cattle. Frequently they've got newer tractors and equipment, but usually there is something older sitting around, too.

Then I've been to auctions where EVERYTHING is newer, including the house. Folks who moved to the country and tried the farming lifestyle, only to discover too late that it is a business as well. Kind of sad, really, watching someone else's hopes and dreams being auctioned off to the highest bidder, but still bringing much less than they paid for it.

I used to have a customer I did work for. He bought and ran a cattle farm for several years. Eventually he sold it and went back to doing what he did to make his fortune in the first place. He was a pretty shrewd guy and I'm sure he didn't lose too much on the equipment, and probably made money on the real estate.

Anyway, those are just my experiences, for what it's worth.

Christopher
 
I can think of a dozen reasons, some good some bad. When I was working full time off the farm I bought new equipment as soon as I started having major repair issues. I couldnt waste time fixing something when I needed to be using it. Typically, I was trading about every 5 years, except tractors. Of them I kept a spare to get me through a breakdown. Was it efficient, probably not but time was my most limiting resource. Now both time and money are limiting, probably money more so. I debated long and hard on a new mower this year. Decided to take a pass. I just cant see dropping that much money when my 5 year disc mower does a good job. My tractors hail from the 70s-90s. In my system thats the best balance of cost and reliability. The oldest probably doesnt get 100 hrs a year and the newest maybe 200. Skid loader gets the most, its an early 90s vintage.
 
This brought out more opinions than I thought it would!

I was raised with old world ideals and values, being a 3rd generation Hungarian. Umpa always said-

"Your name and family are only as good as you make it"

"Save you money, buy what you need to live with"

"Hold on to your job, don't tell the Englishman too much" (Englishman=boss, foreman, backstabbers)

"Talk less, think more"

I would rather use old tractors and equipment in my life. Before this economic washout, I paid off loans as quick as I could, do my own home and farm repairs. I consider myself blessed.
 
As previosly stated, "it all costs". Purchasing parts and using you time that would be productive elsewhere or hiring the labour. Plus the loss of production time is no bagain either.
We don't see airlines flying DC3's, 707's or DC8's for a reason.
 
(quoted from post at 06:01:37 05/14/09) As previosly stated, "it all costs". Purchasing parts and using you time that would be productive elsewhere or hiring the labour. Plus the loss of production time is no bagain either.
We don't see airlines flying DC3's, 707's or DC8's for a reason.
Click to expand...

Well with aircraft you can't just drag it off to the side and wait for the mechanic to show up to fix it.

Far and away the most common series of tractor in my area is the 44 series John Deere, and they have been out of production for about 20 years. A little downtime here and there is no contest against a constant monthly payment.
 
There gets to be a significant cost to having that 'other' tractor around to drag the broken one out of the way too.
As I said before, I'm of the opinion that if you keep older gear in shape to work reliably, and you value your time for those repairs/maintenance, then you're about even with the payments on new.
The only way I've ever gotten ahead with used is by buying older, slightly used gear that the previous owner took a major depreciation hit for on paper but didn't really depreciate (wear out) the equipment. In those situations, if you're lucky, you can buy a piece of gear cheaper and still have a lot of usefull life (good value) in it. Those rigs can work out for someone not doing a whole bunch of work... as they get the cheap purchase price without the repairs.
Beyond that, as far as I'm concerned, if a machine is out working every day, buy a new one. Run it into the ground... and when somethingreally major goes wrong, mothball it and go buy another one. Part the old one out...

Rod
 
As a new small acreage farmer I like to read these threads. So far everything we have is used. All needed some TLC but work properly now and I have learned a lot with some help from everyone here.

I dont remember where I heard or read this, but someone asked for advice about getting into farming. Someone else who had used old equipment his whole life said if he had to do it again he would buy all new stuff right from the beginning.
 
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