OT. Land-locked Acreage / long post

flying belgian · Mar 28, 2009

Wife is Co-Trustee of some farmland put in her care from deceased father. Two acres of tillable land is land-locked, with only access for us through a deep ravine. When her father was alive, he left adjoining landowner farm it right along with his; gave him a turkey once a year. Now a doctor has purchased the adjoining land, built a home, planted some trees. The doctor wanted control of the two acres; wife told him "yes, for $130 an acre". He said "No." So we carried a weed sprayer through the ravine to control noxious weeds for 1 year. After that year wife told Doctor he can just take care of it. This went on for approx. 3 years. Now wife, in order to be fair to siblings, thought she better approach him to charge some rent again, and asked for $100 per year total rent. The guy threw a fit; name-calling, threatened to send her a bill for some grass seed and chemicals that he used to maintain it. Was told by an attorney there are cases where if someone maintains acreage for approx. 15 yrs. they can go to a judge and have him deed it in their name. This just blows me away! He suggests we draft up a letter with him signing agreeing that he is maintaining and we can revoke this at any time. In my mind I know this guy will never sign anything like that. What can we do to resolve this situation?

Anonymous-0 · Mar 28, 2009

I can give you bad advice for free, just like everyone else here. The laws vary by state, so I'd suggest you go to a competent local attorney and ask his advice rather than telling him what you want.

You may be able to make the doctor grant you an easement over his land, or maybe not. The doctor may see fit to buy those two acres to end the fussing. It might be the best outcome for all concerned.

old · Mar 28, 2009

Can not say for sure where you are but in most state it is not legal to land lock some one and because of that he has to let you in to your land, I.E. has to be some sort of road a car or truck can drive on which means that ravine does not cut it. Of course if that is true in your state I'm sure he would throw a fit big time if he was made to let you pass

Anonymous-0 · Mar 28, 2009

fence it off,and build a bridge if you need to get to it,or sell it to the doctor.squatters rights dont apply here,he knows its yours and youve told him so obviously.improvements on someones elses land that are not movable become property of property owner so if he planted grass on your land ,just consider it rent.you can squat on someones place and if they dont say anything for X no of years then possibly it could go to squatter,maybe,not likely.never seen it DONE,I have seen it TRIED. bad deal all around either way,back when neighbors were neighbors it worked ok, rarely does anymore.have the same thing out at our farm,because rr angles across it one neighbor cant cross tracks to get to a few acres,our land crosses two creeks and because our granddad,and their granddad didnt want to mess with keeping two water gaps in we use part of theirs they use part of ours,works for us but i suspect there will be hard feelings someday.talked to the third or fourth generation nephew thats running the place of theirs now about it one time,he didnt even know it!been like that so long it would be hard to change,and its not really enough to mess with.seems to me if your doctor wanted to use the place ,he'd sign a agreement,he would come out ahead it appears.I know what i'd do ,fence it off and keep him out.let the wildlife use it,of course i'm not known for being too awful neighborly!

Tramway Guy · Mar 28, 2009

The law of adverse possession applies in many states. But not only would the Doctor have to use the land, he would have to pay taxes on it as well for some period of time. At least that is true in New York and Wisconsin. Landlocked parcels are a problem....best to avoid them, unless you have a right-of-way/permanent easement to get to it.
Yes, check with a lawyer.

john in la · Mar 28, 2009

This is not law but my personal opinion so take it for what you paid for it..............

You do not sound like you are in a typical land lock situation where you HAVE to cross someone else’s land to get to your 2 acres but rather you CHOOSE not to cross a deep ravine.

You allowed the doctor use of your land in return for him maintaining it. This does not mean he gets to keep it forever.

I agree with your lawyer. Have him draw up a agreement that he maintains it (and or pays rent) for use of the land. Any improvements made by the him become yours. XX amount of notice has to be giving by either party to revoke this agreement. If he refuses to sign it tell him to stay off and be prepared to maintain it or let it go back to natural wood land.
While I have never been in the situation; squatters laws are real.
Adverse possession

TomH in PA · Mar 28, 2009

Is there some reason you don't want to sell it? I'd offer it for sale, if the doctor doesn't want it tell him it goes to whoever makes a reasonable offer. Chances are he'd rather buy it from you than risk letting it go to someone who wants a party shack.

paul · Mar 28, 2009

Laws vary by state, but indeed if you allow someone to control your land for a set number of years without you taking a hand or interest or having rental paperwork involved, they can claim the land as theirs. Your lawyer is correct.

Get neighbor to sign off on it as a rental, or stop him from tresspassing on your property. Sounds like he will not like either one, but as your lawyer can explain better to you as per your state laws, you gotta do one or the other if you want to retain ownership of your property.

Wording & time of the verbal (???) agreement between neighbor & your wife will likely come up in all of this, can depend what exactly she said/ gave away, and who is believed in front of a judge if it comes to that. Your wife might just have to re-emburse him for the cost of seeding it, etc. if she changes her deal with him now - that is very, very grey area, but might be the best solution to get this over & ended. I think she might have offered a little too much there without realizing what she was setting up/ giving up, and will now have to meet 1/2 way on this? She'll have to chaulk it up as not knowing what she was giving away there without a signed document. Just my simple dirt farmer opinion, your lawyer will know better.

--->Paul

Pitch · Mar 28, 2009

I had a house and the guy next door owned the landlocked field out back. He gained accses via a culvert across the crick between us. The culvert washed out so I told him he could cut across me to get onto him. When I went to sell the house the closing was held up untill I got him to sign a notarized statement saying he knew the land was'nt his and his use of the access point up to the new owner and he had no claim on it. The place I have now has a landlocked field behind my field. There is a right away up my hedgerow, but I do not have to maintain it in anyway. It has not been used in at least 7 years, lawyer said for a couple of hundred bucks I could have the right of way declared null due to non use, but so far it hasn't been worth it to me. This is in NY.

dieseldoc · Mar 28, 2009

Tell him to get off your land. If he would have talked to my wife like that he would have ended up in in the bottom of that ravine. If you own it and there is no lease signed by him or you then he is out of luck.

JDemaris · Mar 28, 2009

You are getting some mis-information in some of the replies. Nobody can take title to your land because they've been using it - UNLESS you told them not to, they did it anyway, and you did not stop them. If they've been using it in the past with your express permission, they don't have a leg to stand on. That's whey it's called ADVERSE posession, there there has to be something adverse and against your will. It also has to be obvious, i.e. they're not sneaking in when you're not looking. You or your wife giving permission nullifies the adverse part of it.

There IS something else called "easement by prescription" in some states. That will entitle somebody to use someone else's land (usually just for entry through)if they have a long and proven history of doing it in past. Note - there's no title or ownership involved - and it does not come automatically.

In regard to who pays the taxes, that has nothing to do with anything. Tax department wants them paid and doesn't care who does it. Does not affect ownership. If you don't believe it, you can pay mine for the next 20 years and see if it gets you anything.

JDemaris · Mar 28, 2009

Absolutely NOT true in New York. Adverse possession requires #1 the use is adverse. #2 it must be done out in the open and not in the dark of the night.

Paying taxes has absolutely nothing to do with it. You can pay the taxes on my farm for the next 50 years if you like, and it will give you no standing in a court of law.

To even begin a claim of adverse possession, you must prove that the owner of the land told you to stop using it, and you went and did it anyway. That is the "adverse" part. It is also tresspassing if the property owner can catch you.
The other requirement is that you, the taker can prove the owner knew about the use, i.e. it was out in the open. Sneaking onto somebodys land for years when they're not around and don't know doesn't amount to anything.
I've had people try twice to take some of my land and they failed each time. They were misinformed by a clueless lawyer and didn't have a leg to stand on.

Anonymous-0 · Mar 28, 2009

I will tell you what my $7000 education in easements has taught me. If you want to fight it, it is going to cost you and him. No mater how right you think you are, if it goes in front of a judge, it is his call and nobody else's. You can find all kinds of court cases that will say your right, but the other side will have just as many in his favor. For the hundred you want per year out of him, that will be used up the first half hour talking to a lawyer. Make a deal with him and walk away with what you can get cause you will never get back what you will be spending to go to court. I've been at it on my deal for over a year now and $7000 in attorney fees later, we still haven't got it all settled.

JDemaris · Mar 28, 2009

What state or states? I've never come across any law or provision quite like that and I've bought many landlocked parcels (New York, Vermont, Michigan, and Florida). I realize that maybe somewhere else things are different? There are some states that no longer allow landlocked parcels to be created - that is, you can't subdivide and create a new parcel with no access. But with older parcels? I seen many for sale at very cheap prices just because they ARE indeed landlocked with no legal means of access.

What does exist in some places is this. If you own a landlocked parcel you can appeal to a court for relief. It costs money. Then, at the discression of a judge, he/she can grant by court decree some sort of limited access. It's a long and often costly procedure and does not happen automatically.

Also in Michigan, if a landlocked parcel is big enough to show up on a state plat-map, there is a provision where the state has to arrange some sort of very limited access through adjoining land. Again though, not simple and access will not be equal to owning your own road that you can maintain.

We have many landlocked parcels of land in my area of New York that were created when the new Interstate highway was built. Many farmers lost access to good fields and now have no legal way of getting to them. The were pais a small amount of damages but were never granted any legal access.

JDemaris · Mar 28, 2009

I agree 100% with the money aspect of the thing. However, the person that owns the land does not have to spend one penny to prove anything - at least not right away. That because he or she has legal title and I assume, no recorded emcumberances or easements. That also gives them the right to fence others out until those others prove otherwise.

My point being - the burden of proof is on the guy who does NOT own the land, not the other way around.

Anonymous-0 · Mar 28, 2009

There was a church up the road from me that moved.When the neighbor found out he was getting houses next to him instead of the church he claimed[and was true] that he had mowed a long strip alongside the chuch for years and thus maintaining it he was now entitled to that strip of land formerly church property.That trick did not work and never does.

Mark-Mi · Mar 28, 2009

Sell it to the doctor.
Other wise heard the same story today on a local "Ask the lawyer" radio talk show.
Lawyer told guy to send him a certified letter that you sign for stating that you know he is on your property which you allow or not your choice.Keep a copy.Mark

rgvtx · Mar 28, 2009

Contact a local airport and speak with the trainer for helicopter pilots. Tell them you have a nice 2 acre plot that would be perfect for touchdown and take off practice for new pilots, but don't forget to explain there is no access to the helipad via land. Then when the good doctor puts his place up for sale because he can't stand all the noise and dirt flying, buy it and the problem is solved.
Oh, and don't forget to find out where the doctor moved to so you can let the trainer know where his new landing pad is!

Anonymous-0 · Mar 28, 2009

The "doctor" is a skinflint. Why should he pay for something he can get/got for free?

Sometimes the people with most money are the stingiest.

Anonymous-0 · Mar 28, 2009

Once you get served court papers, it doesn't matter who owns what. It is settled when the judge says so and until then, it's $200 an hour around here to talk to an attorney. You won't get attorney fees from the court either even if you win. The doctor might think he can drag it out in court with a bigger bank account to back him up.

GeneMO · Mar 28, 2009

You said two acres tillable, is there more? Depending on the going price of land in your area, and wether or not you need the money. For no more than two acres is worth here, I would take in steel posts and set them on the property line every so often (depending on what is required in your state for posting land with no trespassing signs), set the posts, put up the signs, then let it grow up in sprouts or weeds or whatever. Make sure the legal location is shown on your homeowners policy as an "added location" so you will have liability coverage. Pay your taxes, and let it set.

Then like others have said, do everything in your power to tick him off. Make an ATV path in. Used culverts or even old Railroad tank cars can be bought to create a way in.. Hire a dozer. If the hunting is good, set up a few tree stands or ground blinds and lease it, or let others hunt it for free. Make sure to go over there every month and sight in the "ought 6". Make a clearing, hike in every so often and have a kegger and weinie roast around a huge bonfire about dark. Might help to bring in the boom box and play some Jimmy Hendrix or Iron Butterfly. Course he might like In-a-goda-da-vida. Who knows.

Depending on your financial situation, I would spend 4 times the lands value to settle the score with the high feeling Doc.

My motto in life: I dont get mad and I dont get even, I get ahead.

Gene

GeneMO · Mar 29, 2009

Belgian, forgot, aren't you overseas? May be wrong. Anyway, what you really asked about was could the Doc claim the ground. No. You guys have been giving him permission to use it , farm it or whatever. What you are talking about is generally boundary disputes. Someones fence is a few feet off. Here in MO. it is called "rights of adverse possession". It had to be going on for at least 7 years. The other person had to be aware that the boundary was off (adverse) to him. And it had to be obvious (a fence) and it had to have been unchallenged. After that, then yes you could go to a judge and they had to forfeit the property and give you clear title.

We had to have this done in the late 1960's. It was because the highway bordering our farm had changed in the 1920's. A 1 acre sliver of the neighbors had been left on our side of the now highway. Guy came in and bought the land across the road and tried to claim this one acre of our pasture. When it was all over he had to give us title to it. Backfired big time one him. Another old neighbor remembered the conversation from the original neighbors 45 years earlier where the owner told my grandfather he could just have that sliver and it had been fenced all these years, for everyone to see.

As for forcing a driveway in, that's tough. A judge could do it if YOU had just bought the land, and their was no other way in. I don't think it would work the other way around. Plus if you could reasonably make a road in that would work against you.

Lease it to deer hunters. They'll walk in or take and ATV.

Gene

super99 · Mar 29, 2009

I'm no expert by any means, but I was always told that access can not be denied. If you have been able to cross neighbors land to get to yours for years, the new owner cannot keep you from crossing his land to get to yours. Contact a real estate attorney to find out about laws in your state. Chris

Mike (WA) · Mar 29, 2009

That isn't the case in other jurisdictions- the true owner doesn't even need to know about the adverse use for the possessor to make a claim. The "adverse" part is just the fact that the use by the interloper is "adverse" to the true owner's interests, which is pretty much a "given", when you think about it.

For example, two adjoining landowners crop-farm up to a give line for many years. Then someone has a survey done, and they discover that the true line is 50 feet out into one guy's field. The judge will put the boundary back to the line they farmed to, even though neither was even aware that one was farming the other's land, and certainly never told him to stop.

Bob Kerr · Mar 29, 2009

2 acres would be about the right size for a small hog operatation. After a while that city slicker should cut a trail especially if he is down wind.

JDemaris · Mar 29, 2009

Yes, but with that mindset, nothing is safe, ever or anywhere. Someone can attempt to take you to court for just about anything. In fact, sometimes people with money figure they can scare you into submission and avoid court. I don't regard just giving in everytime some jerk trys to take my property as a good answer. And, no law says you have to pay a lawywer to defend your ownership. I've done it twice, myself, and prevailed and I don't have a law license or a Juris Doctorate. Last time it was our town's attorney versus me - and I showed him to be wrong. Fact is, I've met more attorneys who are ignorant of the law in general, than non-attorneys. They often stick just to their narrow field of practice and don't know nor care about much else. Not all are like that, but I've met plenty.

Documented ownership is the rule until proven otherwise. And, in many cases, the law and precedents are pretty clear and easy to research.
Often, people react with what they think is the law, without really checking.

buickddeere · Mar 29, 2009

Who owns the ravine? Is there an official deed, title and recent survey for the property?
Best not to make enemies unless you have to. You don't have to hate the neighbor just because he's a physician and has $$$.
The previous generation with your wife's Father and former neighbor seem to be better people to get along with. Than the current generation.
Best not to step on any toes. They might be connected to the *ss you have to kiss tomorrow.

barn E · Mar 29, 2009

Guy with most expensive lawyer wins. Always.

Kelly C · Mar 29, 2009

Your right about that Tax issues.
Check this out. These realestate big shots from the cities. Purchased a small tract of low land by the lake.
They built a shed on it with out getting a permit from the county. They got away with it for a year or so. They contacted the neighbor and asked if they could just run a line to their meter and pay them for when they were up there. They said no. So they tried to get the power company to string a line.They needed some sort of papper work before the power company would string the line. Some how the county found out about it. low and behold this was some of that protected low land. they could not build on it.

The county made them tear down the building.
They then went back to the neigbor and asked if they wanted to buy the land. They told them. No we cant use it for anything and might imcomber our land with the ristrictions on that lot.

Zip ahead another year and on that lot. A pole needed to be removed. The power company contacted the county to find out who the owners were.
Low and behold the Neigbors name was on the tax records as the owners.
They were called and were very suprised to find out that they had been added to the tax role.

Apearently the big shots from the cities did not want to deal with this land any more and called the county and had it added to the nighbors land.
Sneaky sneaky sneaky.

They said they paid once. They just thought their taxes went up $150.
After hearing this I checked my measurements on my tax bill. There is 5 acres east of me no one uses. Mine was ok.

olgentdc · Mar 29, 2009

I am SORRY ,, BUT YOU AND I know you are right

Anonymous-0 · Mar 29, 2009

I'm not saying you have to give in just because your threatened with a lawsuit. What I'm saying is that it can and will be expensive-unless you feel you can defend yourself sufficiently. My lawsuit was over an acre that was in an easement that the guy had on my property. He wanted to sue me to pay for him maintaining it and removing snow so he could feed his cattle in the winter. I live 20 miles from the place and don't even get out there in the winter. He was asking for $5800 for past work he thought he was owed. Other issues came into play and the part about who maintains it was settled in my favor but the other issues are still in front of the judge. Could I have handled it myself, maybe, I did a lot of research of court cases but as I said earlier, the other side can come up with as many as you in their favor. The last set of court documents was like a book, 1/2 inch thick. I had to read it all more than a couple of times to get to the point I thought I understood it all. You might make a good attorney in what you dealt with but this guy might also have a spendy attorney that can make you look like a fool in a hurry.

jack harmon · Mar 30, 2009

your first mistake was telling him he could just use it!kinfolk agreed on the price of a turkey,guess what, that's considered rent payment!fence it off,he wants to scream let him.let it grow up and raise a few skunks.they beat a no-account neighbor any day!!

jack harmon · Mar 30, 2009

bottom line, plain simple cowboy logic,NEVER CRAWFISH!once it becomes a habit every bottom feeder in the pond will gobble you up!.Fence it off and let him do his damnde$t,chances are you'll never hear a word.You may want to just get along,but he aint a neighbor no-way, and appears he never will be.So forget it,lower your blood pressure and dont worry about it! A fence post every fifty feet with one wire is all it would take ,and you'd be over and done with him,lifes too short to play these b.s. games.He wants to use the place make him pay,plain and simple.he doesnt , it aint going any where and your not getting anything for it nohow.Always play the nice card first,but even Jesus told his followers to sell their clothes and buy swords if came to that!.

jack harmon · Mar 30, 2009

Yep hogs like those cool bttms! of course if A guys family just decided they wnted to go to raising watermelons thats just about enough ground for a crop!

OT. Land-locked Acreage / long post

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