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The Metric System

J

John B.

Well-known Member
I think the metric system would be much easier to learn if we just switched to it. For example we all learned pretty quick what a 2-Liter bottle of soda is.
Don't give me a quart of oil and then print on it telling me it's 0.946 of a liter when you never taught me what a liter is.
When I was taught measurments in school years ago they said this is an "inch" 12 of these equal a foot and 3 feet equal a yard and so on. You get the picture. They didn't compare these measurements to other fractional or portions of measurements.
They say it would be too expensive to change to metric such as all the hi-way signs, but from what I've noticed a lot of them are printed in both metric and standard such as 100 miles or 62 kilometers till you get to where you need to be.
The hardest part of the metric system is judging distance in my opinion.
They way I feel about the metric system is to just switch and don't compare the two systems that's where you'll get confused comparing yards to meters etc.
As for the cost of switching just do it and stop spending the money on printing owner manuals in 7 different languages.

How do the rest of you feel about this??
 
John B,

I have no idea how old you are, but I lived through the big push to migrate the US to the metric system back in the 1970's. People who wanted the metric system cited many reasons to switch. People who didn't want the metric system cited just as many reasons not to switch.

No matter what measurement system anyone uses, it will be based on arbitrary selections of base measurements. In my opinion, all numbering and measuring systems work just fine. It's just a matter of which one, or ones, people decide to use.

Tom in TN
 
Yes you are right Tom
But it looks like to me that the U.S. hasn't made a decision to switch completely on which one to use so we're using both. That's the part I don't understand!! I like the metric system very much. If you work on a foriegn vehicle you know to get the metric wrenches out. Work on an american vehicle get both sets of wrenches out.
 
This is a perfect example that I had mentioned that distance is the hardest to visuallize. We all know what a mile is or have picked out a land mark 5 miles from our home and how long it takes to get there, but we haven't or I haven't done it in Kilometers yet.
 
I don't think it makes a big difference which system you 'officially' use.
Canada switched in the 70's. I was entirely educated in the metric system.
Many things about it are easier. For most calculations and science related things it's considerably easier... but I find that for most day to day things I prefer using imperial measurements.
All of our sinage is in KM... speed limits, distance, etc. When I want to know how fast I'm going I think in KM. When I want to know how far I'm going, I think in miles.
That's probably a reflection of me generally averaging about a mile per minute and I know how long I takes me to get somewhere tho...

I beleive if you were to go changing the system you'll simply end up with a hodgepodge like we have.
Most of us get on perfectly well like this too.

Rod
 
Just use both and you can learn to swap back and forth rapidly. As an electrical engineer, I get metric for physical units, and non metric for wire dimensions, so I just do the needed conversions along the way. To the point that now I can tell most metric bolts from fractional, though it takes a known nut to separate 5/16-24 from 8mm x 1..

Gerald J.
 
So.............what was the most advanced tractor ever built? The ETD was/is light-years ahead of its time and..............did it use metric or English units of measurement? NEITHER!!!!!!!!!! So..........if we're really serious about boldly going where no man has gone before, we'll scrap both of the obsolete systems.
 
You ought to know better than to mention the ETD. Now I have to wear my foil helmet and bubble-wrap suit! THEY are always watching!
 
There is a REAL easy way to tell between metric and "standard" bolts. Look at the head, if it has a number like 8.8 it is metric, if it has lines... say 3 then it is "standard". I am sure there are some exceptions by now though!
 
The State of Illinois switched to metric measurements on their road construction plans a few years ago. (Some politician probably got rich somehow from it)

Us old guys had a devil of a time with the new measurements, but we learned it and did OK with only a few expensive goofs.

Then they switched back to "english" measure. (Some politician probably got rich somehow from it)

I like the "english" better, partly because it's easier to communicate with the labor force.

By the way, we had several new metric measuring tapes that had an extra meter in them. I think around 38 meters, there were two 38's. That cost me an extra day's work re-doing a few kilometers of stationing.

Also, why are there still 360 degrees in a circle on the metric system? Looks like there'd be 100 degrees. And 60 minutes in a degree? And 60 seconds in a minute? Why not 100? 24 hours in a day? I'm gettin' a headache. . .

Paul
 
I use metric and inch measurement every day at work since blueprints can be either/or depending on the customer (older Caterpillar prints are in inch, newer are metric GD/T). I have become quite proficient in relating one to the other for offset and tool geometry adjustments as well as visual comparison since we frequently run inch programs generated from metric prints and vice versa. However, this comes from nearly 20 years in the machine shop and quality. New guys fall on their face trying to grasp it overnight and suffer because of it. We take a metric print write an inch cnc machine tool program then check it in metric on the coordinate measuring machine. You can see where the confusion comes in. I wish we (as a company and the US) would finally pick a way and stick with it. Metric is not that hard, just different.

Good measurement,
Bill
 
As an Engineer, Please, please, please, switch to metric. So much easier to count by 10's. Calculations are so much easier in metric as well.

I think the US and a few 3rd world countries are the only ones that still use "customary" units.

Yes, it takes some getting used to to identify the correct wrench, but for cryin out loud, just like anything, if you use it, you will adapt.
 
To convert, say a chainsaw"s engine "cc"s" to cubic inches you multiply the "cc"s" by .061 and that will give you the cubic inches of the engine. ex. a Poulan "Wild tThing" has a42 cc engine. Multiply 42 x .o61 and you get 2.562 cubic inches. If an engine was a 4.3 liter for example; first move the decimal and get 4300 cc"s, then multiply by .061 and you"ll find you have a 262.3 cubic inch engine. Maybe useless info, but I like using it to make compairsons between engines which are now described by their metric displacements rather than by cubic inches as was widely used before.
Mr. Bob
 
I got diabetic eyes, I just grab whatever fits. After awhile you get good at it. There is some interchangeability you know.
 
Hey you got that miles & kilometers backwards. 100 kilometers= 62 miles, Where from Highland do you live, we live 15 miles NNE of there just inside of Bond county
 
For many common sizes, metric wrenches fit fractional bolt heads better than fractional wrenches. 6mm, 8mm, 10mm, 13mm, and 19mm come to mind as fitting 1/4 (very tight), 5/16, 7/16, 1/2, and 3/4. But the fractional don't fit the metric bolt heads.

Gerald J.
 
i"m trying to figure out, why the french (of all people) still weight babies in pounds and ounces!!!! they "invented" the system, and then "convinced" other countries to adopt it... still, like many of you i work in both, was educated in metric, but discovered the real world still used a lot of standard measures... then i moved to north america, and it got even more confusing... how many fluid ounces to a pint? NA is 16, i grew up with 20!so i"ve gone back to metric for fluid use except for fuel mileage... argh....... :)
 
I put in my 2 cents worth.

I grew up in europe with the metric system,was notting wrong with it,then moved to canada in 1980 wich was supposed to be metric. well nice learning curve for me cause all was still done with imperial measurements. notting wrong with that either cause its he!! of a lot easier to measure a foot than 300mm.

Like building a short wall for instant,4 2x4 studs 8' long 16" on center makes 4' ,1 sheet of plywood is 4x8. easy does it.

now build the same wall in metric, stud is now 3.81mm x 8.89mm. sheet of plywood is now 1 meter 22 cm x 2 meter 44 cm ,you go figure out how far apart to set them. WHAT A NIGHTMARE.

Problem is that all wood and steel is still made in imperial sizes and converted to metric .

same thing with bottles and boxes, and vehicles or tractors have now both metric and imperial bolts and other stuff.

you try to get metric bolts and nuts at a farm supply store, good luck

I can eyeball a field in acres, i have not the foggiest idea what a ha looks like no more.

the only times metric comes in handy is when i make parts on my metric metal lathe,cause of the 10 factor wich is a lot easier than adding or subtracting small fractions. That i find a major PITA.
 
The 360 degree thing isn't related to the metric system at all. It goes way back to ancient Greek mathematicians. At the time it was thought that there were 360 days in a year, so they divided the circle into 360 segments. Just be glad they didn't have the calendar pegged or we would have 365.2425 degrees in a circle.

Switching to a different system of weights and measures is hard and nobody wants to do it, so we just keep passing it on to the next generation. If I had my way we would just bite the bullet and change it, but instead we just keep trucking along while billions of dollars are lost in engineering mistakes due to conversion errors.
 
We (USA) would probably be on the metric system today BUT they started changing out gas pumps to read in liters. Nobody would buy gas by the liter so that was a big reason why it failed here. I was taught the metric system in school in the 50s and 60s but we didn't use it for anything. My mother was taught Latin in school but I don't think she used it in real life. David.........
 
(quoted from post at 21:43:45 12/19/08) Also, why are there still 360 degrees in a circle on the metric system? Looks like there'd be 100 degrees. And 60 minutes in a degree? And 60 seconds in a minute? Why not 100? 24 hours in a day? I'm gettin' a headache. . .

Paul
Click to expand...

Why 360 degrees?
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_(geometry)

Actually there is a system where 90 degrees = 100 grads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grad_(angle)

And for those of us that are math geeks there is the radian (rad).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radian

Pooh Bear
 
does this look easier to you? "Like building a short wall for instant,4 2x4 studs 8' long 16" on center makes 4' ,1 sheet of plywood is 4x8. easy does it.

now build the same wall in metric, stud is now 3.81mm x 8.89mm. sheet of plywood is now 1 meter 22 cm x 2 meter 44 cm ,you go figure out how far apart to set them. WHAT A NIGHTMARE."
 
You say:<<<The hardest part of the metric system is judging distance in my opinion>>>.
There is only 10% difference between a yard and a metre, so it can't be that difficult!!

I have been metric since I was about 11. We had (and still have) Imperial measurements. But at school science taught me that metric was the way to go. Still, I did learn all the Imperial units and am experienced enough to recognise and understand the overwhelming advantages of metrication.

How do Americans weigh small amounts of substances for science? In ounces and grains? Or in grams and milligrams? Your pharmaceuticals, for instance?

In the EU they have just changed (clarified) the legislation so that pounds and ounces can still be used legally.

Some street traders say ounces is straight forward because it is a pound halved, then halved, then halved, then halved again. Simple!

They forget to mention 14 pounds in a stone and all the other stupid unit conversions. At least most people can divide or multiply by ten!!

There were ten months in a year before the Romans added an extra two for the Caesars Julius and Augustus. That is why sept(7)ember Oct(8)ober. Nov(9)ember and Dec(10)ember are in the wrong places!!

The Romans probably thought it a good change as the moon changed about once a month (for a twelve month year) - actually would have been better for thirteen months but who would have wanted that!

360 degrees in a circle was chosen by the Greeks as 360 was a special number in that it had so many factors(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, etc).

Most serious maths now uses 'Radians' which, while a peculiar number of degrees, at least includes that awkward constant 'Pi'.

Difficult to metricate time. The Earth travels once around the Sun each year while revolving 365 plus 1/4 less 1/400th times on it's own axis (a day).

We have now fixed the velocity of light (no more improvements in that experiment!), which seems on the surface to be good, or bad, depending on how one views the subject, but that is what has been decided at this point in time.

Of course, since Einstein time and space (independently) have had litle meaning.

I used to use calories as a thermal unit (one calorie raises the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 degee centigrade (Celsius now). OK before that there were BTU's. I now use Joules because they are universally used for energy in mechanics, thermal calculations, etc, etc. I just have to remember there are 4.18 joules needed to raise 1 g of water by 1K (1 degree Celsius).

Kelvin (K) is much more useful as a temperature measurement as it measures the relative amount of kinetic energy in a body (it has none at zero K).

Celsius is a good basic measurement for temperature even though many cannot give up weather temps in Fahrenheit (a purely arbitary scale chosen 'cos 'zero degrees F was the lowest temperature attainable' in the laboratory at the time he invented it!!)and was really just a modified Reamer scale.

Not read all the replies below, but I am metricated. I can still convert with relative ease, but am contented with the straight forward and easily interconnected energy transfers.

Weight in metric is the kilogram (kg) and should be the Newton (N). The kg is the unit of mass, not weight (it only works on this planet), but that is a minor irritation we all have to put up with when trying to get the most user-friendly system to be accepted by most of the World.

Regards, RAB
 

It'll never happen, and I'll never switch. I'll use BTU and pounds instead of calories and killograms. When you get into pressure units the metric sytem is idiotic. There's alot more to the metric system than just units for length (volume).
 
Aloha,
I just want to work on something that is all metric or all sae. I am tired of having two sets of tools to work on one equipment having both.

Mahalo,
doogdoog
 
Remember the metric inch system of a few decades ago? Was supposed to make the transition easier. Instead of sixteenths or thirty-seconds of an inch, it was 1.1, 1.2, etc.
 
I have found that you can only get used to the metric system if you use it everyday. I have to make fixtures that are on Metric drawings.
IE: .0394" = 1 millimeter.
Temps are a little harder to deal with, but I know this much.
0 C = 32f
20c = 68f
37c = 98 f
150c = 300f
-40c = -40f
 
Actually, the metric unit of angle is the radian. There are 2 x pi radians in a circle. Very commonly used in math, science and engineering, but not so common elsewhere. The milliradian (a thousandth of a radian) is a more practical unit of measure.

Interestingly, there is a military milliradian, or mil, that is 1/6400th of a circle. Close, but not quite the same as a true milliradian.

I have been dealing with mixed English and metric units since I went to engineering school in the late seventies. It's no big deal. I keep a book of conversion factors handy, and a conversion program on my Palm Pilot.

When I don't have a coversion table handy, I use the following rules:

A liter is a little bit bigger than a quart.
A centimeter is a little bit smaller than half an inch.
A kilometer is a little bit bigger than half a mile.

Temperature conversions are the worst. I just remember the following:
-40F = -40C
32F = 0C
70F = 21C
212F = 100C
From there I can interpolate close enough.

The US really missed the boat with metrification back in the seventies. One reason we don't export a lot of machinery is the pervasive use of English fasteners. And metrification has been very slow to take hold in the military and aerospace industries, where there are very few mil-spec metric fasteners.

That said, there are certain areas where we will never see metric units. The land in the US is all divided by sections and acres, we'll never see hectares. And certain metric units are very inconvenient to use, primarily due to fact that everything in SI (system international) is derived from meters, kilograms and seconds. So the Pascal, a unit of pressure, is too small to be useful (it's a Newton per square meter, which works out to about one ten-thousandth of a psi).
 
Having a degree in Chemistry, the metric system is ingrained in me. Guess you could say that I"m fluent in both systems. That doesn"t mean that I have to translate back and forth, just use which ever one is convenient. Problem with so many folks, is that they want to change everything back to conventional system. Once you learn to think in metric....
 
Over 15 years ago, the state of Kansas decided (in their INFINITE wisdom....) to jump in with both feet (and a blindfold), and convert to the metric system. Talk about a nightmare! You had plansheets drawn up in English, then converted to Metric - which didn't always convert right. Then you had plans sheets drawn up in Metric, which were promptly converted BACK to english. We found out that, no matter what the plan sheet was written in, the contractors imediatley converted it back to English measurements (in itself causing problems). In the end, it was too costly, and plans were again drawn in English.
I, personally, don't have a problem working with the Metric system - I learned it in grade school, but it's not really necessary to convert.
When you go to the store, you don't always look at the quantity, in say, a bottle of pop. You just want a particular SIZE. Besides, most pop is sold in 16 or 20 OUNCE bottles.
The "scientific community" aside, the English system works just as good for everyday use as the metric system.
 
When we pull tractors in Canada, they measure in feet, inches. Ask a Canadian how much he weighs and he will reply in kilo"s... ask him how tall he is and almost without exception he will answer in feet/inches. Go figure!? gh
 
I19 from Nogales to Tuscon Arizona has speed signs in Kilometers but that does not slow the flow of Illegals across our borders nor does many Motorists pay attention to them until they are caught speeding because they do not pay attention to thier Speedometer.Most late model Autos show Metric and ASE on thier Speedometer.Arizona is being unindated with "Speed Cameras" both Pole mounted and Vehicle mounted. I saw a white SUV parked on the shoulder of US60 yesterday with an odd 5' pole with a box attached to the top of it mounted on the Roof. Sure enough it was an State Police Vehicle,unoccupied, and waiting for some one going over the Speed Limit. No flashes as I and others passed it but you have to really pay attention now or else you will pay.I use the Cruise Control constantly.My Foot can not control the Autos speed any more.
 
As other people have mentioned Canada is supposed to be metric but it only ever got half way there. I think of speed in km/h and distance in km. I use ft and inches but also use metres. The main thing I hate about metric length measurement is that there is nothing really equal to a foot that is as easy to use. I also look at milage in mpg and cannot convert it to litres/100km without a sheet of paper full of numbers. All bolts and nuts, etc. are still referred to in imperial with a few annoying exceptions such as Japanese vehicles. Just about all other building supplies are imperial as well
 
We prefer expressing ground distances in statute miles in the USA. The original intent was for the Inter-State Highway system to be signed in metrics (kilometers). Most states posted signs in miles. Alabama was an exception and posted theirs in kilometers. They requested, and received , approximately 31 million federal highway dollars a few years ago to re-post everything in miles. People are just more comfotable with miles. ALSO, haven't most houses in the US been constructed with studs on 16" centers? Doesn't that work out nicely with 4' X 8' sheetrock or panelling? Are we going to change all that around at lumberyards?? Just asking.
 
I show a TV movie that was based on a true story
about an airplane in flight that started to have engine problems. They soon discovered they had ran out of fuel. Whom ever fueled the plane had used liters for measuring instead of gallons. I guess he didn't know a liter is about 54cc's more than a quart. Anyway the plane was high enough to get enough glide to be able to land safely. I would've thought someone would've filled the tanks
to top them off. Hal
 
I agree. Working in machine shops, every thign is done in inches, even though atleast 1/2 the prints now a days are in metric. Shop I'm at now designs they're own stuff so 90% of what we do is in inches. SOme of the guys have a mini panic attack when they see metric.

I just pull out my calculator and divide mm x 25.4 to get inches. Nothing to get panic over.

Donovan from Wisconsin
 
Like a foreign language, there are few words few choices of pitches in the introductory standards. But there are many more metric standards. French may not match every German, and for sure every Japanese or Chinese standard. Some have 2.5mm diameter, some have 2.6. Then there are spark plug with their own vintage metric specification, ISO (the "STANDARD"), British Association (matches nothing but is handy for British watches and microscopes), Swiss watches, etc.

While we have NC, NF, NEF, 8 thread, 12 thread, 16 thread, Whitworth.

Threads around the world also vary in V angle, from 29 degrees for Acme, to 45 degrees for BA, 55 for some British specials, and we use 60.

Gerald J.
 
The more one works in the physical sciences, the more one sees the long term advantages and efficiencies of the metric system. President Jimmy Carter, a Chemical Engineer by education, made an effort to convert the U.S to the metric system. This was ambitious, but the short term pain of converting would have brought a lot of long term gain. Jimmy’s successor was not a believer in short term sacrifice for gain long term. He scraped the effort to convert. This may have helped the economy short term, as the conversion was not without some cost. We, (the U.S.) would be better able to compete in the world’s markets if our engineering, manufacturing and everything else were done in metric measurement.
 
Sample shuold be 100 kilometers/62 miles. Couple traffic signs like that I've seen in Minnesota. If you confuse the speed limit signs and do 100mph instead of 62 mph the ticket costs about $300.00+court costs and the $ doesn't mean Pesos. I still measure in cubits and fingers width- the wood working projects turn out OK but some other people trying to copy them get confused. RN
 
Mars rover or whatever the name was for the first attempt to land mobile tracker/tester crashed- official cause was retro system didn't work as expected because NASA was using metric system and Jet Propulsion labs was using English measuremeants- nobody caught the discrepancy until time to slow down, then procedure started at wrong hieght. One or the other and check to make sure- or lose a couple million. RN
 
Took me 60 years to learn our system and I aint switching.Just did battle with some metric bolts on gas tank straps.Looneys put a 1/2 inch hex head on a 3/8 bolt, hex would not hold a 12 mm 6 point socket.It slipped and took a 16 inch Stilson and breaker bar to get these bolts out.To make matters worse this is a Ford f150 truck that should not be using china metric bolts.I may as well buy a Toyota if I have to frig with metric nuts and bolts.
 
You have got that right.I have been using tools for at least 60 years.I used my dads tools at first and gradually bought my own over the years.Is a pia to find my Ford truck uses spline head 12mm bolts on the drive shaft.I have metric in 3/8 drive but 3/8 sockets will break.I call around and find no one has 12 point 12mm sockets.I find one 27 miles away.10 bucks worth of gas and 2 hours wasted.I have some metric wrenches but never the right ones.It took me years and lots of money to get my tools together and a 71 I wont need them much longer.All my woodworking is done in inches and feet.I can look at an 8 foot 2x4 and pick it from a pile of mixed lumber with no problem.I can cut my stove wood at 12 or 16 inches and come pretty close.My saw mill has a inch and foot scale on it.My logs are cut in feet plus 6 inchs for trim.I dont need metric,Hitler used metric.The Russians used metric,I wont change.I can pick a 3/8 by 2 inch bolt out of a can.I can look at bolt heads 3/8 thru 1 inch and pick up the proper wrench.Metric I have to try several wrenches to get the right one.My metal lathe is set up in inches not metric.I wonder why metric sockets still have 3/8 and 1/2 inch drives.
 
(quoted from post at 20:24:11 12/20/08) The more one works in the physical sciences, the more one sees the long term advantages and efficiencies of the metric system. President Jimmy Carter, a Chemical Engineer by education, made an effort to convert the U.S to the metric system. This was ambitious, but the short term pain of converting would have brought a lot of long term gain. Jimmy’s successor was not a believer in short term sacrifice for gain long term. He scraped the effort to convert. This may have helped the economy short term, as the conversion was not without some cost. We, (the U.S.) would be better able to compete in the world’s markets if our engineering, manufacturing and everything else were done in metric measurement.
Click to expand...

Whilst in theory the metric system is easier ( &amp; this is the difference via science &amp; practice!), actually it doesn't seem to work out in real life. Here in UK we are metric officially, but actually most people use Imperial measures. As others have stated, all our roads &amp; buildings have been built to Imperial measure, so a sheet of plywood etc is STILL 8'X4' but is sold as 2440mmX1220mm.
In real life, a yard is an average man's pace, a foot is an average man's foot, an inch is a thumb top joint etc etc. The measures actually MEAN something, &amp; have been derived by centuries of practice. A centimetre is neither one thing nor another. The millimetre is too small for woodworking &amp; too large for metalwork etc.
For ordinary work the metric threading system is OK, but sometimes you need a choice of threads. Any non CNC metric lathe is a right pain to the amateur to use for threading compared to the simplicity of an imperial lathe.

Imperial compound measures, eg. pounds per square inch are a pain to convert say to tons per sq foot, but this is where the metric system really wins out, just move the decimal point.
 
What's standard about the metric system. I understand 1 meter is 3 different length depending on where you live. Try a fine thread German bolt and see if the same size Jap nut fits. or is it a Jap bolt and a german nut.
 
The ironic thing about building materials today... especially plywood, sheet rock and things like that is that their area dimensions are imperial BUT their thickness dimentions are actually METRIC.
When you get into steel, things like rebar are in metric sizes.
We still commonly refer to them in their imperial equivelants (approximate) but if you actually stick a caliper on them, they are metric.

Rod
 
That's interesting, Mark. We supposedly made a complete switch-over to metric, and I remember asking about getting new transits, they said it wasn't necessary. I guess the politicos didn't have a hook on the transit sales - just the tapes, rules and level rods. We used celcius for air temperatures, but still used farenheit for asphalt and concrete temps.

Paul
 
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