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corn to ethanol revisited

A

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
I was amazed at the amount of energy geniuses we have here who would rather buy their fuel from some raghead that will smile at you one minute and stick a knife in your back the next! I see the oil and grocery peoples propaganda campaigns have worked on the weak minded. Ethanol is not the total solution but it can be part of a bigger energy program whether they make it out of corn, switchgrass or whatever, 10% ethanol fuel blend means that 100 out of 1000gals. came from the US not the middle east. In your obiviously well thought out opinion have you figured in the corn sweetener and corn oil produced, the jobs created or the dried distillers grain that can be fed to livestock with excellent results? Yellow corn is primarily livestock feed, haven't seen any of you pushing my calves out of the way to eat out of the bunk! I raise corn and don't care where my crop ends up as long as there is a demand for it. Have your groceries come down since corn/ ethanol has gotten cheaper, mine haven't. The markets were speculator driven.I suppose some of you that would just as soon buy foreign oil also like buying cheap crap made in China from Wal-Mart to keep more money in your pocket. We will all pay (and already are) for feeding the dragon. So let's keep sending billions over seas while things like our infrastucture decline here at home!
 
It is possible to express your views without the baseball bat...
Beating each other over the head is not really conducive to considering others views...
Granted, it's great fun, if your intent is just to have fun.
I do agree, of course, that buying local and/or US, as much as possible (within reason) is becoming more and more important; unfortunately, it's a complex situation.
 
Yea - I support ethanol & soyoil for fuel as they help some, but I realize it is not a perfect or total solution.

I also just bought a Toyota, because there isn't a car coming out of Detroit that I could like. Detroit has gotten into gadget mode, vehicle will be better because it has Onstar, sun roof, electronic this, gadget that.... My gosh there are buttons everywhere, and then they will put the special double-$$$ battery under the back seat or something that just turns me off. I just want a reliable car that gets me around for years. Didn't think that was too much to ask for, but - just couldn't like anything coming out of Detroit these days.

So, yea, it's complex. :)

--->Paul
 
The gist of the ethanol thread to me was; I don"t think anybody said to quit doing it, there were/are better ways to do it.
When I go out to buy something for my family I don"t go to the place with the highest price, it"s part of taking care of a family by making your dollar go as far as it will.
Buying cheap walmart/china crap. I think that ship has sailed. What are you going to buy at mom and pops other than cheap crap with a higher price.
It"s the job of our government to take care of the American market and for big American businesses to be patriotic and do the same or be forced to do the same.
"billions over seas while things like our infrastructure decline here at home" I guess call write your congress person. Address is, Any Prison USA
 
I think you must be missing some facts. Wife bought a new Ford 500 in 2005 and we have put a lot of miles on it. Transmission and radiator service is required at 100,000 miles, mileage is over 25 MPG, no rattles, nice bells and whistles including sunroof and price was better than comparable Honda/Toyota. Don't know where you get your information.
 
A complex situation? really! Lets see, we can support some guy growing corn in Iowa, or we can line the pockets of a bunch of camel jockeys, who as we have learned will spit in our face at every opportunity. I don't see it to be a real complex issue.
There has been a bunch of propaganda put forth from anyone who might lose a dime by the prosperity of the ethanol industry. I guess we are all supposed to be a bunch of lemmings that can't follow a stream of logic. I guess that when corn is used for ethanol production, it is all used up, there is no valuable by-product. I guess it takes 13 gallons of fuel to raise an acre of corn that supposedly only creates 11 gallons of product. I guess the fuel we use just jumps out of the ground and finds it own way into the filling station tanks, not using any energy to complete the process.
yea, I guess your right, its a pretty complex situation.
 
Sad though it is to say, a weak mind that's active is still superior to a brilliant mind stuck in the sand.
Have you ever thought about what would happen to our agricultural system without oil?
It seems to me that 100-150 years ago things didn't operate at much 'gain'. People fed themselves and that was about it. 99% of the progress that's been made in the past century came with the usage of oil...
So... my question, or challenge, again is this: prove that there is a NET ENERGY GAIN in ethanol production. I don't care how much money there is in it. I don't care how much distillers grain it produces. That's not relevant to the question.
I don't know about anyone else, but when I studied high school physics they told us about somethign known as the law of conservation of mass and energy.
Somebody needs to explain to me how ethanol defies this 'law', or how energy is added to the system in excess of the system's efficiency losses.
I'm not aware of anyone who has explained that one yet.
There's studies fueled by the ethanol industry and USDA that attempt to quantify energy inputs that suggest that ethanol makes gains.
There's studies by the environmental movement that use the same basic methods, but who quarrell with the exact numbers... and they come out with an entirely different result. Who's correct?
I don't trust either side to do an honest evaluation. Both have a vested interest in proving their point...

At the end of the day you're left with an industry that may at best be making a little more energy than it consumes, and at worst consuming a lot more than it produces.
So... it would reason that if it's using more than it produces, it's using arab oil to do that. Cut the legs out from under it and you'll use less arab oil....

Rod
 
I was going to go to Wal Mart tonight and have a good time buying Chinese junk. Now you've made me all sad and I can't enjoy myself.:( TDF
 
Us anti ethanol types don't want to buy oil from the ragheads, we want to produce our own. In the past few decades they've made one discovery after another of huge oil reserves in U.S. territory.
The media doesn't trumpet this, as it doesn't fit their agenda. But the info is out there.
One of these such reserves is Gull Island. Another is ANWR, which everybody has heard of.
There are more.
 
The sun and mother nature are making the gain.

I'll say it again $325 Total cost of inputs) converted to gallons at a $1.50 per gallon equals 217 gallos on fuel.

175 bushel per acre makes 490 gallon of ethanol.

Net gain of 273 gallon per acre.

Show us figures where there is no net gain after mother nature gets done with it.

Gary
 
i get a charge out of reading all this stuff and the different opinions on corn to fuel--- i put a 10% blend in my pick-up and i get 12 miles to the gallon-if i use regular no lead i get 16--what did that corn wiskey do for me-- nothing!!it all went up in smoke and didnt push my truck 2 feet--i still used the same amount of reg. fuel-and wasted some corn sqeezens--
 
It has been proven there is no mileage loss with 10% ethanol blend.

Better check it again.

Gary
 
What about the massive reserves found under N.Dakota? Runs all the way up into Canada. What about the big reserves in Colorado? What about the big reserves off California? None of them matter, because the evironmentalcases/nnalert. are not going to let us get it. They talk about reducing our use of foreign oil. And that's all it is, talk. We are the SaudiArabia of coal, can make plenty of fuel from coal. But it's not going to happen. We are now using far less fuel. I been reading about how some states(R.I, N.C)want to start taxing people on how many miles they drive, to make up for lost gas tax revenues. That's right, they've been whining for years for us to drive less, now they want to tax us for doing it. If ethanol was the answer, it would not need government subsidies. The answer is to get more of our own oil out of the ground. But, it's not going to happen. Jack
 
Some of the people on this site are scary. They know very little,but talk a lot.There is nothing worse than a little bit of a brain.
 
Gary I respect your opinion and hope that something can be done so that this is a viable source of energy. However as a livestock feeder the last year or so has been the hardest that I can remember in the last 40 years. I disagree with the argument that the grain can still be used as livestock feed. Unless you can feed the wet distillers grain within a few days it will spoil. If it is dried down so it can be stored, is this a practical solution? I realize that corn producers are up against the wall and input costs have gone through the ceiling. Mine have too. There has to be a balance in what is used for ethanol and what is used for livestock feed if both are to survive and I don't think one can survive without the other. As far as the fuel efficiency, I have checked my dodge several times and there is a 2-3 mpg decline when I burn a 10% blend. If I am pulling a trailer it is 3mpg less and just regular driving it is 2mpg. This may be a minor problem that could be resolved with a computer setting.
 
I know there wasn't any saving with ethanol blend. When gas was $4 a gal, it cost the same 4 for the blend.
 
Well if you buy everything from Wal Mart you know thats supporting Chinese communists.Best thing is to try not to buy from Wal Mart.As a matter of fact just read about Wal Mart.It will tell you what you are supporting when you buy from them.Non Union,non living wage supporting richest family in the world.Its a free country,but Wal Mart is not really helping your family.Once they kill off all the mom and pops they will jack the price up,they arent cheap now.They are a discount store with retail prices.The government has been busy stealing from Americans everything they can,and not regulating anything.Part of the nnalert way of running things.The government as it is now is not going to do any more than its forced to do,if anything,for you and your family.Plus they are going to allow whoever gives them the biggest bribe on your airwaves,telling you lies about everything.That means oil companies,big food warehouse crooks,and other mafia types want you to think there is no hope,you must buy higher and higher priced oil,because they tell you to.Since you are doing that might as well buy from Wal Mart too,since thats the model they want to bring to America.They want you to wear your gray pajamas and pull your cart around,begging for work so you can bring a couple of potatoes home to feed your family,like they do in China.Or dont you get that yet?
 
The job of the Federal Goverment is what the US constitution allows, period. I have never seen any reference to ''Taking care of the American market'' in the constitution. As a matter of fact, that is one of the most ridiculous quotes I have read on here and I am glad you are on your game. Ethanol has been viable in the past because the free market decided so, I would hope that no politician takes the current downturn in oil price to mean Santa came early. The USA needs to raise production of each and every home grown and produced source of energy, to do this, every firm in the energy business needs, deserves, has to have Tax breaks -- yes TLAK, even your hated big OIl, because no one works for free or invests their capital without a reasonable expectation of gain.
 
Have you smelled the gasoline lately?

It no longer smells of alcohol and has that good old petro stink to it.

With the price of crude as it is they sure don't want to add $3 a gallon alky to $1.50 a gallon gas.

And my gas mileage has improved a bunch since the alky is out!!!
 
so if I put straight gas in my 95 f-150 it will go from a best of 14-15 to 21 mpg, yeah right! I have run from 100% gas to 10% to 50% E85 and it doesn't vary much, as for feeding ddg's several of my neighbors mix it with ground hay and corn silage with excellent results cats and dogs also eat it saving on dog/cat food! How many options do we have for fueling int. combustion engines? gasoline, diesel, lpg, cng and hydrogen are currently the only options that I am aware of. Ethanol can be used as supplement to stretch gas. Ethanol was blamed for high corn prices, corn is at $3.00 now and we are still producing/ consuming ethanol, explain this. It was speculator driven. Maybe we could all get steam powered cars, it would suck to get up at 4am Sunday morn. to get the fire started so as to get the family to church on time! We need a diversified energy profile which includes alt. fuels, nuke, coal and wind. No individual source can do it. Wind for example has a production capacity of around 40 % due to varying winds, how do I know? I have climbed and repaired/maintained more wind turbines than many of you have seen. Domestic energy money stays here in the US, isn't that worth something? It is to me!
 
Paul....specifically which Toyota model has less gadgets than a comparable Chev. model from GM...if you want to buy Toyota, just do it...but don't rationalize by stating that GM comparable car has too much "stuff"....let's compare your model with comparable Chev...
 
Gary....we can debate lots of pros and cons of ethanol but....ethanol in a 10% mix still gives LESS MILEAGE than gasoline with no ethanol mix. We can discuss all sorts of pros and cons but BTU's are pretty straight forward.
 
On further reflection, I apologize for that previous comment. Nobody deserves to be insulted like that.
 
I am no fan of Wal-Mart -- because I do not like the control they exercise over their employees and the way they treat their customers. As far as why they have prospered, that is simple, the world has changed drastically in the last 20 years. India and China have over half of the worlds population and they are trying hard to raise their peoples living standards, they started off making rubber shoes and straw hats and graduated to stealing the technologies needed to produce T.V.'s, computers etc. I know you remember when the phrase ''made in Japan'' was a joke, a euphynism for junk, then came Toyota and Honda. The USA still has the smartest, most productive workforce in the world, the problem is that the world wants consumer crapola and the lastest gimmicks. Go anywhere in the world and see John Deere, Cat and General Motors products doing the heavy work. The USA needs to PROTECT its patents and copyrights.
 
WHY would you let the facts get in the way?

I have posted the same information about less mileage with ethanol MANY times, and get shot down every time.
 
I have been a chey man all my life, but isn"t on-star standard on most all chevy rides these days. In other words the base price includes a high tech gadget alot of us don"t want, even if it"s free?

Dave
 
Not to mention that the steam car took three times the fuel to run as a gas car. The thermal efficiency of the small scale steam plant is around 10% at locomotive size, less as you get smaller.

The thermal efficiency of a gas engine is more like 25%.

Gerald J.
 
(quoted from post at 21:34:56 12/17/08) I have been a chey man all my life, but isn"t on-star standard on most all chevy rides these days. In other words the base price includes a high tech gadget alot of us don"t want, even if it"s free?

Dave
Click to expand...

I haven't even figured out the want or need for Onstar. Don't most people have cell phones now? If not the next guy down the road will.
 
Something no one has brought up before.........If making corn into ethanol is so inefficient, non-productive, 'takes more energy to produce' BS, etc..........ADM is the biggest producer of ethanol in the US, Cargill is second, at 230 MILLION gallons per year. Do you really think that those two conglomerates would do it if they were losing money at it? Most farmers in the Corn Belt understand the economics of making ethanol, and its advantages, but there is so much misinformation being touted as truth by those who have little real info. Sure, right now the industry is going through some troubled times, given prices, input costs, etc. But over the long term there are many good reasons for it to be produced until other cheaper methods (and inputs) are generated. That will happen, switchgrass, wood, corn cobs, etc.- but it takes time and this is all part of a learning curve, like any other developing industry.
 
i know people in the ethanol industry and almost all of them agree it is a joke it takes 1.1 gal of fuel to produce 1 gallon of alky so this makes the ragheads even more money and now for the kicker we work on engines and you should see what the extra moisture in alky does to an engine it can take one third of the life away--- on my resale pumps we had to install extra filters to get the junk out when we switched to alky mix but our co. gave us no choice
 
For those with the facts- there is no dispute. I get 11% fewer miles per gallon with a Dodge van, but ethanol is typically 40 cents per gallon cheaper, so the cost per mile is less with E-85. I've seen the spread as wide as 60 cents cheaper- even better value, but 40 is typical. Either way, the dollars stay in the US! And WE can GROW it!.
 
Jim SC, thanks for posting that. When the Japanese own of all of the factories over here I bet that it won't be much fun working for them. I worked in a factory for forty years and I have seen both sides of the Employer/employee game. It can get rough out there when they want profits. Below is a link that talks about the subsidizing that is going on for these transplants.
Auto transplants 2 pages
 
Thanks to government subsidies they're making money. Nobody has mentioned how you have to truck ship this crap. Cannot run it through a pipeline because of the moisture it would suck up. What do you think the extra cost of that is? They tried this garbage in the 70's, and it was a big waste of time and money then too. There are better ways as I said in my previous post. Jack
 
As of today in my area E85, E10 and regular 87 octane varies no more than 3 cents. And the stations that sell E85 is actually the highest.
 
Yes... you can show numbers in dollars and cents and it has absolutely nothing to do with calories and BTU's of energy which is what this is about.

I've yet to see anyone show 'energy' gains from it, and I don't assume that it's there.

Rod
 
So the corn doesn't harvest any energy from the sun. Gary showed you a 273 gallon gain surely there's got to be a few btus or calories or something in those 273 gallons. Lee
 
(quoted from post at 18:27:40 12/17/08)
I'll say it again $325 Total cost of inputs) converted to gallons at a $1.50 per gallon equals 217 gallos on fuel.
175 bushel per acre makes 490 gallon of ethanol.
Net gain of 273 gallon per acre.
Gary
Click to expand...

Those numbers get you to the input of the ethanol distillery - now calculat in the energy required t convert the input feedstock to saleable alcohol and you will come out with a negative net.

Stop ethanol now!
 
Sure it harvests energy from the sun. The question is whether it harvests enough energy to cover the inputs and the inherent losses in the system.
Again, I suspect that the answer to that is NO.

What kind of corn crop would you get if you went year on year with corn without adding significant amounts of manmade nitrogen? That 175 bu crop would be down to 100, then 75, then 50 and probably decline from there fairly rapidly.
I don't imagine there's anyone out there with much interest in proving that... They wouldn't make any money proving that, so they add chemical N.

Rod
 
Truck ship? That must be why all ethanol plants are built alongside of a rail spur. Cannot run it through a pipeline because of the moisture it would suck up? What is the source of the moisture? Hole in the pipe that sucks up ground water even though the pipeline is PRESSURIZED? First time I heard of that, but hey, I've only been in this since 1994. Investor/producer-? yes. Biased-? yes. Waited for years for profits-? yes. Delivered corn under contract for years, when it could have sold for more-? yes. Knowledgeable about the industry-? YES!!! Still supportive-?YES!!!!!
 
You are talking about two different things, and I do not disagree with you- we need to do more domestic drilling, but when you talk about coal reserves being made into oil- ie, gasification, that is an expensive process that needs more research and development. Still a good viable option for the future. Bottom line is always the cost per gallon.
 
Interesting article. here in Australia when they bring in foreign workers, they must be paid the same as the local work force,been a lot of employees who have been made to adjust backpay because of underpayment.
 
Pull all the state and federal ethanol subsidies and you'll see ADM and Cargill bail out of ethanol production faster than Bill Clinton can eat a donut.
 
You're joking, right? No mileage loss? You must be getting your information from the Corn Promotion Board. Did you listen to WHO radio a few years back when they did that experiment by running two identical pickups around the race track at the state fairgrounds, one using ethanol and one on straight gas? They inadvertantly proved that there is a 25% mileage loss. They blamed all sorts of factors, but the point was proven. They never mentioned that test again, but every once in a while they'll let it slip that ethanol doesn't get as good mileage, and then they sure do backpeddle trying to cover their butt so as not to pizzoff the Corn Board.
 
gas is worse it takes 1 input for .75 output but they still refine gas everyday likes its going out of style and they make record profits.
 
Yeah, truckship or railcar ship. Gimme a break for not mentioning the railcars. There is always moisture and other contaminants in pipelines. And I'm not talking about holes in the pipe with ground water pouring in either. Also this stuff is corrosive to existing pipelines. I guess that's why they want to build a 3 billion dollar new "special" pipeline. I see why you would be defensive about it, it's your business. But this is not the answer IMHO. If it was the answer, it would not need government subsidies like wind power. If it was the way to go, private money would float the boat. Jack
 
The cost of that nitrogen and everything else needed to grow that corn was figured in to Gary"s equation, the 273 gallon gain was net gain after all costs. 273 x 77000 btus per gallon equals 21,021,000 btu net gain per acre from the sun very significant I would think. Just Google ethanol btu and read some of them. The first one claims ethanol is inefficient says it takes 140 gallons of fossil fuel to grow one acre of corn, not very much would be grown if that were true. He also claims it take 11 acres to fuel one vehicle that would be enough to go 100,000 miles on straight ethanol at 20 mpg or 1,000,000 miles at 90/10 blend.
Another hit on Google shows several different studies showing it as efficient. 34% energy gain with only 17% of the energy being used coming from fossil fuels. Another said 6.34 btu gained from every one btu used.
These were on a journeytoforever.org website and looked to be legit. Lee
 
OK fellas, I like Walmart! I like getting good deals and not paying higher prices. It's not my fault when they opened free trade across the borders the US can't compete because the unions have jacked-up wages soo high for it's workers.
Look at the auto workers and all that mess. Here is a guy with little education making over $29.00 an hour to put a screw in to a car.
No bail-outs!! This has to adjust to ever work, let the chips fall where they may! All my union has ever done for me is taken my money and given it to a political party that I didn't want to support, and kept drunks from getting fired!

2nd: Food for fuel is silly! There is no way it can be worth while when the processing energy is factored in. This is all make believe like global warming. Right this down - we will soon be hearing about global cooling, it's going to be the next "Buzz Crisis"! Yes again, for you guys that can remember the 70's
Will Al Gore write a book on Global Cooling?
Where is this Global Warming at anyways, it's not where I live cause it's flipping freezing outside way colder than the norm,.. see, global cooling is here!
 
People seem to be pretty ignorant when it comes to the corn ethanol issue. I think it is a great use of the surplus corn that we have. But corn is a very versatile product from producing plastics, sweetners, lubricants, etc. Yet not too many people complain about this. The ethanol industry has created a large enemy from big oil and they continue a relentless propoganda attack. It is much better to fully utilize what our country needs than to pay farmers money when the price drops due to surpluses. And it is the taxpayer that foots thiat bill. And the ethanol industry which is led by corn usage is one that is continuing to improve. You can out that in your pipe and smoke it!
 
I've read various studies. The problem is that they're all studies, based on assumptions rather than much hard data. One can under assume; the other over assume... and both prove their respective points based on inaccurate assumptions.
Dollars and cents economics of the game really doesn't have anything to do with thermodynamics.
It's the thermo side I want to see proven, not the economics...
Somebody, somewhere needs to take a piece of land, grow, harvest and brew their ethanol from the corn, year on year without any additional inputs. Spread the wet distillers grain back on the land if they want.
Anyone want to guess how long that project would last?
Not too long is my guess. That's hardly sustainable at the best of times, never mind not putting anything back...

Rod
 
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