1930s depression question

Ok didn't the gov try to buy out banks back then that where in trouble?? If so then why are they doing it now knowing it didn't work back in the 30s??

History repeats itself when the people don't learn from it.

My honest opinion after plenty of research is that a government has a better hold on people in the hard times. More and more people need assistance of some sort and have to follow the rules to get it. The people also don't have the money to spend on guns. I know I'm a paranoid SOB but I feel very strongly that we are in the age of psychological warfare and it's happening all around us. Think of all the ways everything we do is controlled. You can only get what's imported by the government,the produce you get has infertile seeds, gas prices limit transportation capability, oil dependency isn't entirely frowned upon etc.

Forget about the banks. WE need to buy back our country. This wasn't a problem back in the depression.

I can't comprehend what I was hearing today about as external_link said we are indebted to China for a loan of $xxxxxxxxxxxx.00.

10 years ago we were still considered the richest country.---What happened???

If it was because someone goofed up then they should be fired. {I'm sure I would have been on lesser mistakes]

Lou Dobbs, CNN has a great saying:

"There is class warefare going on in this country, but the middle class doesn't realize it yet."

nnalert's tricle down economy finally came to fruition - TRICKLE DOWN BANKRUPTCY!

Actually, at the start of the great depression, I think the Federal goverment didn't do anything in the short term to try to avert the failure of the financial market, and if they had, we may have avoided, or at least mitigated the great depression.

For better or worse, our economy acts to make profits quarter-to-quarter, month-to-month ... heck.... day to day.

Money needs to be able to flow in and out of big companies on a day to day basis - that is how companies have grown up and know how to run them selves.

I believe the politicians and the press when they say that the Federal government needs to buy-up bad debt quickly so that companies can feel confident lending money to each other, otherwise the credit industry will freeze, and the economy will freeze right behind it. So I don't think we have any choice but some kind of massive bail out.

Of course, national politics and the media are big business(including the Boston Globe and NPR, which I'm sure most folks on this board would consider abundant rags)and big business is bound to act in it's own interest. So I'm not sure I should believe them, but what choice do we have.

I really do not what to sound all doom and gloom but lets look at a few things.

20 years ago the stock market was in the 1,000 range. Today it is a 11,000.
That is up over 1000%.

40 years ago my Mom and Dad bought a nice 1500 sq ft brick home for $85 a month.
This same house would cost you about $1800 a month today.
That’s up over 2000%

Do you really think we can afford another 1000% increase in the next 20 years.
A stock market at 110,000 and house notes of 18,000 a month.

We are due for a very large correction period and while a government buy out of banks now may postpone the inevitable it will not stop it.

People forgot how to work back then hoover dam was built in 7 years .5000 men 24 hr.s a day we cannot build a coffie shop in that time today. gov. and lazy people. they wanted to make money with money with out labor. Grandad said work for your keep and you will be kept. LABOR MAN

We are still the richest country in the world. It is just that the US gov. is run by crooks. Think of all the wealth in this country, Home values---down a lot but still worth a lot too. The stock market has trillions of dollars of worth, not to mention all other hardware, our miltary, private investments, gold reserves, farm land, etc. etc. I wouldnt trade all that for China and its problems or the Arab nations and their oil.

Banks fail because people don't have the money to pay them back for bad loans.Taxing the same people to buy the banks hardly makes any economic sense.

You're exactly right but there are many that are going to have to learn to work if they want to eat in the not too distant future.The Gravy Train
ride is coming to an end for a lot of Americans

A lot of regulation/laws that were put in place after the crash, to stop it from happening again, were rewritten/elimanated by the present, crooked politicians.

during the depression years, my grandfather was a farmer and he did very well according to my mother. they had plenty to eat and raised crops and hogs for sale and even built houses in the area. they did not want for anything because the family all worked together and did not sit around crying about their troubles. they did not use or even want credit or loans and what they could not buy or make, they did without. today, a lot of our troubles come from folks that would rather stand in line for welfare or cry to some government agency for help when they might just as well help themselves. stop whining and find a way to help yourselves. some folks do really need a helping hand, but not all the masses on welfare or the public dole. 'nuff said.

Actually, there was very little intervention by the federal government until FDR came into office. One of Roosevelt's first actions was to declare a "bank holiday", where every bank in the country was closed until it could prove its financial solvency. Those banks which were solvent were reopened and were then able to obtain Federal loans. Those that were insolvent were closed and their assets transferred to other banks; Depositors in failed banks received 85 cents on their dollar.

It's not reasonable to compare the actions of the government before and during the Great Depression and what is happening today. The steps that the government is taking today are intended to be proactive measures to avoid a greater future collapse of the US and world financial market. Whether or not these steps are prudent or even sufficient, only time will tell.

a LOT of folks seem to forget that in the 30s it wasn't just the Stock Market Crash that devastated the country...it was the Dust Bowl that wiped out the American Farmer then, not the Crash. Ever read " The Grapes of Wrath"?

The men and women of this forum, and those like them, have the greatest ability to survie these economic times of all the social groups in American... and thank God the environmental climate looks like it will allow us to. For myself, i'll be cutting and burning a LOT more wood this year...will probably start hunting again to get some cheap meat on the table..and guarrantee that the family garden will be 5x the size next year. Time for those of us who wandered away from our roots to get back to 'em

A small percentage of our citizens have the mental strength to survive somethim=ng like the great depression. There would be ALOT of suicides and crime. Very few can cook food that isnt heat and eat. Even less can grow anything. The self humility of not being able to live like they have will be too much for many people to bear. It is all about image today. Sad. I invested alot this year in farming, kinda wish now I would have spent less and kept more in savings. I've lost $28,000 since 8/1 in my 401K, its a company plan that I am no longer employed with so I cant add more to it, so I can not even buy the cheap shares right now. We our selves live higher on the hog than we should, but if I get too tight the wife starts getting crabby, so I told her, "well,when it's gone, it's gone, then we will HAVE to do with out". We have a couple we are frinds with that live paycheck to paycheck, both make great incomes, but they love to spend. Well, I heard that both of the employers they work for are going under. I wonder what they will do, I know 70%+ of their income went to loan payments of some sort. President Bush looked more grim than optimistic in his speech, I fear that the coming months, or years will be worse than we worst we expect. Surviving it will take strong relationships, strong faith, and hard choices.

No money in circulation is my under standing from my grand parents. The Gov either did not mint coins or had greatly reduced numbers when minted in the early 20's and early 30's. My under standing when WW2 started the country was still in the depression and never really emerged until late 40's.

All who can keep their jobs for the next 5 yes 5 years will be OK. The ballon home note will reset for the next 4 to 5 years so the housing is in the first QTR of the game with three more QTRS to play out.

Most children of depression era parents are in their 80' and 90's for the most part WW2 vets.
Most of the boomers were raised by the above parents have moved to towns for jobs such as I.

The banks are desperate for cash is my take by the add's current giving 4% for 7 month CD's. Not hard to find 1 year CD's close to or at 5 % in the Chicago tribune,

Mar's candy just bought Wrigleys gum for 32 billion.

an old freind told me during the great depression you couldnt find as job. if you did have a nickle you couldnt find a potatoe to buy.

Explain in further detail. What regulations/laws?

Be thankful that President Franklin Roosevelt got on television in 1929 and told people what made the stock market crash. If it hadn't been for that it could have been a lot worse (;>))

The Depression didn't start with the stock market crash. For ag industry it started in the early 1920s after the boom of WW1 turned to bust.

Bank runs forced banks that were basically solvent into insolvnecy as people attempted to turn their deposits into cash (see a Wonderful Life). Today FDIC insurance protects deposits up to $100,000.

The stock market crash was the result of everyone buying on the margin (easy credit) - only putting 10% down on a stock, riding it until it gained 10-20% and selling it and basically doubling their money. But once a stock started to slide the "investor" had to sell immediately to avoid a margin call. With most of the market operating on "margin" the panic sales drove the prices even lower. Similar to the housing market mess today. Many buyers never looked at their home as a place to live and spend the rest of thier life but an investment to be sold when it appreciated in value.

For all the talk about FDR - it has largely been forgotten that his rapid expanision of governemnt programs did nothing to end the depression. The rest of the world had largely recovered by 1936-1937 while the US was mired in it until the expansion of arms production and other material to supply the warring powers in 1940 finally brought unemployment down to "reasonable" levels. As a matter of fact manyeconomist and government officials feared that the depression would resume after the end of the war.

Thing to consider. While recruiting for WW2 the armed forces learned that a large percentage of young men were not fit to serve after years of malnutrition, US rate of rejection (4F) were even worse than the British found amoung their own young men. Today the poor in the US suffer from the exact opposite with extremey high rates of obsiety.

dermesc has it down pretty well. A good source of info is "The Forgotten Man" by amity Shlaes. The biggest thing that made the depression last so long was FDR screwing with things. In '35-'37 he torpedoed the recovery by forcing business to hire rather than reinvest in the business by taking care of bills, getting tooling, the infrastructure. He screwed the whole world up by, GET THIS, setting the price of gold at his whim!

I get so mad about this I lose it. Read up on it. FDR was no hero.

The previous posts did a a real good job of explaining the basics of the great depression. Couple of things that were missed. The boom before that era cause a great demand for wheat. They plowed up every inch of prarie they could in Kansas, Oklahoma and parts of Texas. Then when it turned dry for a few years, all that soil was unprotected and the wind started blowing and we had the dust bowl.

The financial issue was mostly an issue of confidence. A paper dollar in your pocket was only worth what someone else thought it was.

Farmers, who mostly lived off the land, and were not in the dry areas, did pretty good as others suggested. Currency didn't mean too much to them, they had goods and could barter if need be.

Our family did pretty good then, Grandpa even bought another farm in 1937, which I still have.

As for now, I became debt free about a year ago. The neighboring farm came up for sale a couple of months ago and it was sure hard to make the decision to borrow some money to get it. The banks practically were on bended knee to get my business.

My best advice, watch what everyone else is doing, and do the opposite.

Also, as George Santayana said " Those who do not know history, are doomed to repeat its failures" Not an exact quote, but as close as I can remember.


Gene

Trickle down bankruptcy? Have you gone bankrupt? Do you know anyone close to you who has?

Do you think Trickle Up Economics would work?

At the beginning of the Great Depression the Federal Government did do a lot. Go research. Woodrow Wilson made things much, much worse by raising taxes and instituting isolationist policies.

The current problems in housing were created by Carter, pandering to groups like ACORN, pushing for loans to people that could not afford them through the Community Redevelopment Act. This policy was greatly expanded under Clinton.

In April of 2001, just after Bush was elected, he began pushing for policies that would reverse these practices, but could not get congress to act. Many other over the past 7 years have been warning of this problem moving to where it is now. No one listened. We, as citizens, did not demand that our representatives do anything. We continued to elect the same people over and over, the very ones who were turning away from their responsibilities to head this off, nnalert and nnalert alike.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were created by FDR, and they should never have been allowed to come into existance. Their purpose was/is to allow banks to make bad loans, knowing that these two institutions would but those loans from them, thus encouraging poor lending practices. If banks knew they had to hold that paper, they would never make those loans.

abundant groups pushed these programs to the extent that over the last few years people have been able to get loans without even being required to prove their income, or even their legal status to be in our country. A good portion of these loans have been made to illegal aliens. One of the things pushed by ACORN and other low income housing programs was the "No Money Down" aspect to the loans. And when there is no true invenstment made, and therefore no real commitment made by the borrower, there is nothing to stop them from walking away from the house when their ARM increases, like they should have known it would.

Another big factor in this current housing problem is the reaction the government had to the ENRON fiasco. The Sarbanes-Oxley Act. Google it and learn more, but it essentially changed the way banks and lending institutions had to prove the value of the loans they had. They had to list those assets in terms of current value rather than value at the time they were sold, in the future. So when home values fall, like they have now, their paper is worth less, even though they will regain that worth in the future when values increase again, as they will. This is the root of the current bank failures.

I guess the bottom line is that it is simplistic to say greedy crooks in Washington and on Wall Street are causing this. Yes, greed is a factor, but we all have to shoulder some of the responsibility. If we all had been paying more attention to what's been happening, and demanding our representatives in congress change these practices, we wouldn't be where we are now.

See dermesc post above. Regulations to limit buying investments "on margin". that is, limited the percentage of investments that people could make with borrowed money - those regulations were relaxed.

People tend to be more careful about what they do with there own money compared to what they will do with someone else's money.

Indiana Red ask do you know anyone who has gone bankrupt?

Of all the folks I know, yes one. That wasn't because of economy, it was because of them buying above their means. Both husband and wife had good jobs and health and lost neither to cause their problems.

Well, I respectfully disagree. Go research the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, passed as a kneejerk reaction to the ENRON meltdown in 2002. This act is at the heart of the current banking failure problem. If it were repealled and if we lowered the capital gains tax to zero, and lowered corporate taxes, there would be no need for any bail out with taxpayers money. Liquidity would flow in huge waves back into the markets.

The big difference was and is - back in the 30s, sound and strict lending practices were being used. People were losing their homes due to inability to make promised payments. The "New Deal" takeover that took place then, also opened the door to the mess we are now in. It enabled many associated with these banks to hand out mortgages with very few requirements.
The true focus changed - from the 30s as a way to help people stay in the homes they were trying to buy - to the present - as a money making institution that reaps huge dollars for many closely involved, regardless if the institutions stayed solvent, or not.

Now, it's a toss-up. Allow the bail-out with newly printed money and suffer inflation and debt. Or, don't allow it, and see the economy take a nose-dive. Also, if the FDIC has to pay out huge sums of money, the government will print new money anyway and cause inflation.

My vote is - let the economy crash. This concept that our economy must grow by leaps and bounds every year or we're doomed is rediculous - it obviously cannot work forever. We need to find a way to succeed and survive in a more static economy since the world and society do indeed have finite limitations.

Ok Old the government run by Hoover did not do anything to stop the problem just like todays group of crooks.The first time it was ignorance,since it worked so well for them to claim ignorance and steal money,thats what they did again.They did the same thing,point fingers at everybody else,and steal money right in front of everybody.Banks dont need to be bought out,its about that simple.Like you said it didnt work then,and it wont work now,to fix the banking problem,but it works if you are a politician stealing taxpayer dollars.To all those bashing FDR and defending the crooks,same hogwash as before.The problem is the person looking at you from the mirror,you just try and sound like you know what you are saying,but actually are causing more damage by not admitting you have been made a fool of.Buyouts dont work,banks steal money,so do crooked politicians.Hero politicians fix the problems and the country moves forward,crooks drag country down.Really kind of simple.

Indiana,

I haven't gone bankrupt personally - yet. However, the federal government has gone bankrupt - but we don't feel it yet because we keep pushing it out in time to our kids and their kids.

Trickle Up economics - that is your term not mine. I don't thing any kind of trickling will work. I would just advocate people and businesses paying there fair share of taxes. The only trick of course if figuring out and agreeing what that is. And then keeping the tax code simple so that tax payers and the IRS easily know what everyone owes.

As for the current situation - it resulted from lax regulation of the markets. If investors were investing more of their own money and less borrowed money (which, in part is our money) they would have been more careful about where it went, and if their investments went bad, they would be on the hook - not the banks from which the lent the money.

I whole hardely agree with you that we have the government we vote for. But I don't think we can ever count on the majority of the population (or even a signficant minority) paying enough attention to elect better politicians. I don't know what the answer is there - but I do think we need to find a way to greatly reduce the influence of money in politics.

Money talks louder than words, and what people always seem to forget is where most of all that campain money goes. To the media. I think there is a great conflict of interest there, but you never hear anyone in the media talking about that.

That the courts have ruled that money = speach and corporations = people are great bastadizations of our democracy.

Being a canadian we watched the debate last night with great interest.Not being political we were hoping to see substance rather than posture.Our conclusion was Mccain won on military matters and his oponent won on economic matters.One thing that really puzzled us was when both debaters stated the usa owed China a billion dollars. Now the question is if a capitalistic democratic country is the best system in the world how in heavens name could it owe to a communist country that much money. WE thinks someone has been playing in the cookie jar for a long time and we know it was'not the farmers.

I don't know about bank buyouts, but my intrest in this subjectled me to stumble across the fact that the stimulus check idea was done in the depression several times and it didn't work then either.....I do think we are headed for a stint of bad times, the buyout of the banks will only hasten it as the printing of 700 billion dollars will only weaken the dollar more causing more inflation,and more un employment.Also the de-basing of the dollar on gold also didn't do the economy any favors The federal reserve bank(a private enity,NOT PART OF THE GOVERMENT) loans money to the goverment for a fee, to keep us in debt, as a nation. I also read an article the other nite by Charles Walters in ACERS USA about when they debased the dollar it in effect put a 33.3 % tarriff on our exports ,and a 33% tax relief on imports....which is one of the reasons why we are where we are today...I am planning for hard times, saving seed , both animals & plants and laying out my small homestead so I can provide for them all and have some extra to sell...I have alwas been A man of many hats with a wide varieties of repair /manufacturing skills, with the equipment to practice them, so even if my job goes away, I will be able to do repair work for income....I wish more people would do the same , and stop thinking how the goverment is going to save them, because the are not going too.....Just a few of my thoughts, sorry so long, Shawn

Enron was the result of the vast sums of corparate welfare our goverment doles out in direct payments and rules and regulations to benefit companies that can't make it on their own. You are just calling for more

People blame welfare mothers and poor people who default on predetory loans. I have a master degree in science and write technial reports for a living. I can't understand what should be simple language on mortgage papers and related letters from lawyers because they use their own jargon intended to make things unclear to all but those in the business. I can see blaming people buying properties on speculation, but for poor folks that got roped into a mortage the could not afford? More blames belongs with the person who wrote and made a killing from writing the mortgate.

Gene's right in saying no one who is trying to explain today's problems has mentioned the Dust Bowl adding to the problems of the Great Depression.

Our daughter (history major) sent me a book on the Dust Bowl. The price of wheat was good in the late 1920's and millions of acres of native grasslands in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and southern Nebraska were plowed up to be planted in wheat. Anyone who had a tractor and plow was in great demand. Kids as young as 12 were making big money by borrowing their father's or grandfather's tractor and putting in 12 hour days plowing up grassland that should never have been touched by a plow. Then when the drouth came, the soil was unprotected and began to blow in dust storms.

I was born in 1934 and can remember the tail end of the Depression and drouth years, and the financial stress my parents endured. Every Saturday, they took their eggs, cream, and other produce to town, sold it, and bought supplies and groceries for the coming week. They considered themselves secure if they had $3.00 left over each week.

For the last several years, I've been appalled watching HGTV when they would follow young couples buying their first house. These kids would buy a $300,000 house with zero down and an adjustable rate mortgage, interest only initially, to balloon in several years. They were upside down when they signed the papers. You could give them a written guarantee they'd be on the street in two or three years. And that was before prices declined and their house lost a fourth of its value.

I'm normally an optimist, but I have this edgy feeling the worst is yet to come.

Old, You are right, but the difference now is that no one is held responsible. Then, the banks were closed and the bad ones shut down, Now, they just want to throw more money at the problem. FDR was no hero, the American people demanded something be done and chose him, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE made sure it was done, we don't hear that now. The only way this will get better is if we all (nnalert and nnalert) demand it. But no........We have people like Trucker40 who blame everyone else but take no responsibility for their actions and wait for the next great talking head to come along. All they do is talk in circles, go no where, do nothing but blame everyone else for their miserable life. We can and will get ourselves out of this by making the changes at the local level and not waiting for BIG GOVERNMENT to do it for us. If you think it will go to h*ll it will....for you. If YOU take charge it will change. Don't vote for what is best for YOU vote for what is best for ALL, WE ARE THE GREAT UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. We need to step up and make those that did it before us, proud. It doesn't matter who is elected if we demand a change and keep at it till it happens. But sit around and argue and do nothing to make it change, you get what THEY want, so Trucker40 put your hand out and get what you deserve, the same as you are giving.... CRAP....James

Well said. However, a point or two of small disagreement.

If it's a private company investing money, it is their money, not ours. It is perfectly legal and fine for a corporation to borrow money and invest it in any way they deem appropriate, be that in a new building, equipment, or in markets that they believe will provide a return on their investment.

I don't think the government is bankrupt. It is in debt, far beyond anything I would consider acceptable, but not bankrupt. They are still paying the interest on their, (our), loans. The amount of debt is disgusting and out of control, but not in forfeiture.

I would agree that Hedge Funds and similar types of investments are a big problem and need to be dealt with in some fashion, perhpas eliminated altogether.

The limiting of speech through campaign contribution is another complex and difficult issue. I, too, dislike the fact that the media receives so much money during the campaigns, as they are, for the most part, leftest propagandists and extensions of the nnalert party, and worse. But if we limit one's ability to donate to them it does seem to me to inhibit free speech. You and I could get everyone on this site, or those that agree with us, to donate to a fund, and we could then hire a publicity company to produce commercials for us to advance a cause we believe believe is worthy and needed, be that a candidate, or a bill or some type of policy. Limiting those we disagree with would require we limit ourselves too. A hard choice, but one I wouldn't be comfortable with.

We are completely in agreement that not enough people are involved enough in the political debate, and probably never will be. Some say that's a good thing, that those who don't think it's important probably wouldn't agree with us on most issues anyway. But I think that if everyone really paid attention, learned about the issues, and more importantly how our country was founded and why, that most would lean toward conservative values. I think far too many people vote on single issues, what will this person or that policy do for ME, versus what's best for the country overall. This is demostrated in many Gay Rights issues. Otherwise intelligent people who can see reason and logic in many conservative values, like lower taxes, will still vote nnalert because they want their own agendas catered to. Seems selfish to me, but there's not much we can do to change it.

Often times when I get to this point, where things seems to be where they aren't going to change and aren't going to get any better, I start thining, "Well, God said it would be bad in the last days, I guess we're here". That's a bit of a fatalist attitude, but rings true to me.

Hopefully I'm wrong, things will improve, people will become enlightened, and we'll all live happily ever-after. I'm just not betting on it.

Have a good one.

Brian

What coorporate welfare did Enron receive, and how did what I say lead you to believe that I am advocating more? Please explain that to me.

So there is no personal responsibility anymore? No blame for people signing contracts they don't understand? With numerous governement agencies out there designed just for these needy people you refer to that cannot afford an attorney to assist them, you put no blame on them for not utilizing these tax payer funded programs and blindly entering into legal agreements?

Who is responisible for these predatory lending practices? The very people who say they are trying to help the poor, uneducated, and underserved. Google ACORN, CUMMUNITY REDEVELOPMENT ACT, and enlighten yourself.

If there is no personal respnsibility for anything, where does that lead us as a nation and as a people?

You sound very anti-corporate, is that true? Do you believe that big corporations are the root of all evil?

My Dad, (born in 1919) always said that they never really noticed the depression on a North Louisiana farm because while there was always plenty to eat there was never any money to speak of. He always said World War II ended the depression and that hogs were 3 cents per pound and eggs were 9 cents a dozen as late as the spring of 1941. I have always tried to stay out of debt as much as possible and really beleive only land is worth going into debt for. But like a lot of other people I may not owe the bank anything but I owe the light company, gas company, rural water system and various insurance companies every first of the month.

Brian,

I will refresh my memory about how the Enron crisis came about and get back to you with the specifics.

And Sorbane-Oxley: if memory serves me was a response to corporate officers ripping off share holders by inappropriately revalueing their stock options when they went to cash them in. If I recall, Steve Jobs of Apple was one of the people who probable should have been thrown in jail for what he did. I don't think the law was intended to prevent future Enron debacles, but did come out of that time when it seemed like all of corporate America was corrupt.

Again, I'll refresh my memory and get back to you.

Tim

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, as I'm certainly not always correct. But even the European Central Bank warned us against enacting the Sarbanes act. It was an overreaction to what happened to Enron. You're right, it has to do with how investments are valued. It's had the unintened consequence of causing these bank failures of late. Notes they are holding on martgages are not worth what they should be due to falling home values, and the banks cannot come up with the liquidity that the Act calls for, and they fail. Even though those notes will be worth more in the near future when home values rebound. It's kind of sad really.

Now WaMu, Wasshington Mutual, just failed because of a classic run on the bank. Nervous people pulling their money out. Again, unfortunate, as WaMu hadn't done anything wrong.

If you think my statement about lowering corporate taxes means that I'm for breaks for those who aren't deserving, that's not what I mean. Because in reality, corporations don't pay taxes. This is very simple economics. Any business has to maintain a cetain profit margin to meet costs - payroll to employees, operating costs, and other overhead. If their taxes are raised they simply increase the price they charge for their goods or services, or go out of business. So the end result is that we, the consumers, pay more for the things we buy and pay their tax increase for them. Surely you can understand that.

If we lower corporate taxes, and, more importantly, lower the capital gains taxes to zero, inverstors here and worldwide will begin to invest so much money in our economy that the bailout will not be needed. Doesn't that sound better than we the taxpayers paying for it? And keeping the government out of it, as it never does anything as well as private industry, is another benefit. That's all I'm saying.

B

The FCC licensed the first TV station in 1928 to an individual, doubt that it was very widespread or much of an influence on anything in a years time. I know my family did not have TV till the 50"s then snowy poor pictures till the stations got some power.

We got ours in Nov of 1954. Reception was terrible before that. Nearest stations before that were Milwaukee and Chicago 125-200 miles away. New stations in Green Bay and Wausau resulted in a lot of TVs being sold. We had a big tall rotator antenna on top of the house which is on a hill. That antenna worked great for over 20 years. Snow, ice, wind. I trust you know I was paraphrasing Joe nnalert's comments in my post above.

Trucker 40- I don't know who you think is apologizing for the crooks or anything else. There is plenty of guilt to go around on both sides. The important thing to do now is to contact your politicians and tell them what you think. I'm not in favor of a bailout. I personally think we need massive pending and tax cuts across the board. Take care of defense, infrastructure, Social Security, our elderly and our veterans. Everything can be put on hold so to speak. We clean Washington up with term limits for a starter. No Socialist plans, no funding for arts/PBS/PORK,PORK,PORK!!!! Do what McCain said last night and go through the entire Gov't from top to bottom and get rid of the out dated programs (like the Rural Electrification Commission which I understand hasn't done a project since the 60'S!!!) Revamp the tax code and get rid of the crazy taxes we pay- We're STILL paying a tax on the SPANISH AMERICAN WAR!!!! Make some waves and throw the bums out that are there now. Yeah, it's gonna hurt a little, but better a little than a lot.

We have to stimulate investment and business. Our dollar is worth little these days . A strong dollar requires a vibrant, stable and productive economy. We need to cut business taxes, capital gains taxes, income tax. We need to lower those taxes and at the same time get rid of the loop holes. Invest in clean energy, but for now invest in nukes, clean coal and drill, drill, drill!

Those are just a few examples that come to mind. The best thing for this country is clearly to dump the waste in Washington, in BOTH parties. Clean house and get some people in there who don't want a career in politics, just to make the USA a better, safer, more secure place.

I'm not here to speak in behalf of OLD, but will comment on some of your comments . . .

You stated:

" . . . the government run by Hoover did not do anything to stop the problem just like todays group of crooks . . . "

The reality is, what Hoover did, or did not do . . . is not anything like what is happening now with these corrupt banking institutions and several politicians from all parties. Hoover did indeed try many things to keep things afloat. They just did not work at the time. The depression was not his fault, anymore than its end can be credited to FDR. The "Roaring Twenties" had a decadent lifestyle not much different then we've had here just lately. In 1929, a General Motors rep. stated "The key to economic prosperity is the organized creation of dissatisfaction." Not much different today with our "throw away" society.

Society then, and now tends to have knee-jerk, ad hoc reactions to things - often short sighted at best. Blame is often cast in the wrong places and credit given to the wrong people.

Nobody knows for sure what all the components were that started the so-called "Great Depression." Many Americans hardly noticed it while others suffered. American farmers were in a depression long before other citizens got affected.

During Hoover's time - Europe had all kinds of economic woes created by WWI. Those problems are what led to Hitler becoming popular, starting WWII - which in fact, helped end the depression. So, in a way, Hitler helped end it perhaps more than FDR.

I've studied world and US history, and pre-history - most of my life. And, I'm nowhere near as certain about these things as you seem to be.
I believe that in the real world - the more you know - the less you find out you know.

You also stated:
"The problem is the person looking at you from the mirror"

I've often argued with the guy in the mirror, and gotten nowhere. That being said, I won't blame myself for problems I've had no hand in. I don't buy things I cannot afford, have no debts, and support myself and my family without relying on others.

As to your other two statements:

"Buyouts dont work,banks steal money"

Buyouts often work great when done by well-run businesses. And, banks do not steal money - but many people associated with them do.

If a CEO of a major company get 140 Million most on stock options and that company goes broke then what does he have. (Hint: worthless paper) The news people have a bad habit of only giving part of the facts and that is to make the average people mad at big Corporations. If you want to get a country to be Socialist you must first make the people think that they are very poor and the big companies are all very rich and to solve the problem the government must take them over.
France tried that a while back and it went in the tank for it.
Russia tried it for 70 years didn't work.

Old the main reason that it took so long to get out of the Great Depression was all of the Government programs that FDR started none of which did anything to help the depression or the people. About all they did was make poor people out of the middle class.
The dust bowl days didn't help any either.
Walt

Did you hear external_link say this?

FDR didn't become President until January 1933.

The USA owes China a lot more than just One billion dollars. I'm quite certain the number is closer to a thousand billion, which is a trillion. Need to check google...

I checked the trade deficit with China on google, it says the U.S. trade deficit with China increases by ONE BILLION PER DAY! It also says what to do about it is the $1.4 Trillion question.

Regarding lending standards, to some extent you're right.

But at the same part of the problem was the amount of borrowing that took place to buy stocks. Inflated the bubble, and when the bubble burst people didn't have the assests to sell to cover the borrowing.

People started to be desperate to sell stock at any cost to cover their debts. Falling prices and people buying is not a problem. Falling prices and no one is buying is a HUGE problem, and that's what started to happen -- prices fell and still no one bought so prices fell even faster. Even for people who didn't need the cash right away, the value of the assets as collateral collapsed so getting new loans was tough.

That aspect is very similiar to today's mess. Banks, inusrance, and related businesses where using complex mortgage backed securities (MBS) as their "hard assets" to secure loans. Think of requiring a mortgage borrower needing 10% down...these MBS were to the lenders their 10%. When we started having short-term problems pricing these MBS because no one wanted to buy them, they became essentially valueless. You couldn't sell them to raise cash in a pinch, and for loan convenents that required X amount of equity be maintained, that equity disappeared.

The credit crisis we have is largely banks hoarding cash right now to cover their statutory and contractual obligations for equity:debt ratios.

We can fix that problem buy infusing cash -- the current Bush & the nnalert solution; or we can fix it by addressing the valuation of the MBS by allowing banks and other holders to insure that they will be paid off over the next 15, 20, 30 years (as the underlying mortgages are). Ok, so maybe you figure 10% of people will default, you charge 10% for insuring them, and you get an actual value for the MBS of about 80% of what they were originally. Banks have pain for their bad decisions, but don't collapse and can start loaning their cash reserves again.

We were out of the depression well before WWII.

In fact, we had gotten out of the depression, had another recession, and were already recovered and economically growing by 7 Dec 41.

With the depression done, FDR & Congress tried to raise taxes to cover the deficit run up by programs during the depression. This triggered another recession, not as severe as the first.

It is very easy to empathize that people wouldn't have perceived a return to prosperity until a couple years after WWII ended; but from a technical standpoint that occured well before WWII.

In a world of debit cards, and where even checks are scanned (often right at the register) and deducted from your account before midnight...

Can you imagine a bank holiday today?

Oh boy!

"We're STILL paying a tax on the SPANISH AMERICAN WAR!!!! "
Guess what, that's how it works, you pay your debts now or later. The Civil War was paid off in the 1970s. The Iraq War will be paid off.....2050.......3000......never?

During the Bush Administration, that rales against communism, socialism and brags about being free traders. How in two weeks could the
mortage system and the banking system be socialized.

During the Bush Administration, that rales against communism, socialism and brags about being free traders. How in two weeks could the
mortage system and the banking system be socialized.

Sarbanes-Oxley is more involved then just valuations. It is aimed at assuring the financial statements are accurate and there isn't three card monty going on.

I do IT related SOX internal audit work from time to time (I'd shoot myself if I had to do it full time! But the pay if very, very good).

It's literally just reviewing TPS reports.

Company I was just at this past week, SOX just for IT auditing probably costs $1,100/employee (actual cash outlays for internal and external auditors, for new hardware and software to collect and generate the needed records, and loss of efficiency of the IT staff filling out paperwork instead of fixing and improving things). That $1,100 is probably 1/3rd the first year cost they incurred getting up to speed.

And it's completely useless. The procedures established by the Big 4 accounting firms are an IT audit written by accountants. I could complete an audit with no deficiencies based on 100% fraudulent paperwork. There are technical tools I could use to take year-to-year or quarter-to-quarter snapshots and actually know what's going on in the network and be able to verify the integrity of the audit. However, those tools are not used because Junior Accountants wouldn't know what to do with the information. So we spend as much if not more money for poorer results.

Sarbanes Oxley has been great for accounting firms. Probably costs companies 1% of gross revenues, maybe 1/4th in cash and 3/4 in loss of efficiency. For nothing.

Love hearing from people in the know. Thanks for making me smarter.

I did hear from people in the news that I trust, like Charles Krauthammer, that if we would just repeal Sar-Ox, that 70% of these current problems would go away. That banks would then be able to keep these martgages at there currently lower values, instead of going under because of artificially lower housing prices. Would you agree with that?

It was nnalert that said that.

I find it hard to believe tlak. If true then someone needs to fix that. 100 years to by off a bill?

If memory serves me the only thing that saved us in the 30's was going to war. Why do you think the war in Iraq started. The only problem is that it is turning out to be like vietnam.

Because in the bank crash of 32 there wasn't a program to buy up banks. Banks went out of business, and depositors lost all or most of their money. One result was that GM had to start a bank - the National Bank of Detroit, so that employees had a place to cash paychecks. GM had been paying employees in cash. There were only a couple of banks in Michigan that survived the depression. Prior to the crash, Michigan had more banking activity than Chicogo, but after the crash, Detroit never caught up to the Windy city. My Grandfather told me that when Wall street fell, nobody seemed to care. But when the banks closed, they thought the world was ending.

Shawn I agree we are going to have to be alot more independent, I would like to know if you are looking into some alternative energy devices. I am thinking about a wood gas generator myself, looking at the how to and plans figuring out the way I want to build it. Are you working on a better idea? I would like to consider all the posiblitlies before I jump into a project I know little about.
Thanks WD

Vietnam? Have you looked into whats happening in Iraq lately? And the Depression would probably have ended by '37 or '38 if FDR had kept his hands out of things. READ the histories on the depression and what FDR did to PROLONG it. It'll take you 7 or 8 books to get a real clear view, but I now understand why my grandparents hated FDR so much. Oddly, they loved Truman. Go figure!

Yep,looking at all possibilities, downloaded the plans fron the USDA for a wood gas generator am planning on building a wind generator , and have a friend that works at a thin film solar panel plant that can buy at a discount....also my step daugter works for a battery manufacturer and can get batteries cheap, also looking at small steam gennys...And alcohal stills...ect . Shawn

I actually agree with a lot of what you say.I think lots of things could improve,and I am all for term limits.I would even rather they didnt get a whole term like a review after 6 months and out if they vote against the country.

I dont know if you really get what it is thats wrong is why I go after you and others sometimes.This is a serious threat to our country.

While everybody seems to get all caught up in this day after day assault on the other side(abundant,conservative,nnalert,nnalert,right wing,left wing)which is going to happen we all know,the country is being dragged down in every way possible.I refuse to accept this as anything even close to leadership of my country.I not only will disagree with you,I will argue to the death that its always wrong to go in this direction.I may not always win the argument,but I know that making the rich richer and the poor poorer is wrong almost always,with deep,and long lasting,destructiveness to our country,way of life,and just plain outrageous.

Now I dont get what reason taxpayers have in bailing out banks,period,no matter who you point the finger at.The Depression of the 30s was caused by a stock market crash,and other things.There was very high unemployment and lots of people were forced to go somewhere else to try and live.Some are trying to say that FDR was somehow at fault.I did not live through that but my parents aunts and uncles did.There are nnalert and nnalert in that group and I have not heard one word against FDR.Most say things would have been lots worse if not for FDR.I dont think I am too far out of line in calling him a hero.I bet he hoped what ever he did actually worked.Either the people had no choice,or they liked him real well since he was elected to President more times than anyone else.

I think an argument can be made that all of the Presidents were crooks to an extent.An argument can be made that all politicians are crooks as well.When it gets down to it,its not so much whether they are crooks or not,its whose side are they on?If Franklin Roosevelt had not been on the peoples side,they would not have elected him.If any of these politicians are on the peoples side it will shock me.You dont ask the American Congress for 700 billion that might end up 5 Trillion after you lost 3 Trillion,and destroyed the credibility of the United States in the whole World,and look to me like you are on the peoples side.You look a lot like a pompous rat who thinks he is King something thats forbidden by our constitution.If the Constitution were used the problem would be over and this rat would be in prison.

After saying that,how we can be on the same page,yet so far apart is kind of amazing,at least to me.Our upbringing must have been about the same only we had different outlooks on things.I grew up in a time that we had unions,and the nnalert LBJ was a crook,but still better than Nixon and history proved that.

One day about 10 years ago after arguing face to face with a Kansas nnalert I actually realized that both sides were heading for the same point.Corporations had taken over our government.The nnalert kind of put on a little show about some resistance from time to time,but actually did not represent the people any more.They were just sort of nnalert Lite.Demicans and Republicrats are better terms to me than Conservatives and Liberals.These people would suck eggs,and are bought off corporate puppets.The only difference I can see is that it takes nnalert longer to get there to the destination of destruction than nnalert.I also make money when nnalert are in office it seems like,and if that works for me,Im staying with it.I dont like corporations having all this say in our government.Under nnalert the corporations having the say in our government are mostly foreign,and probably dont even understand our country and government.Thats why its so messed up,instead of having a backbone,the slimy politicians are so busy kissing foriegn big money peoples a$$ that they dont even get anything for us at all in return,just sell us out.

After saying all of that which I just said,I dont want some nut case attacking me with gibberish about how good we are getting it,or how I dont want to hear your politics,or any more of it.If you want to argue that nnalert are better,did great things,History just doesnt agree with you.I also have never in my lifetime seen such a bunch of lies being put out in the media as in the last 8 years.I dont know what it was like in the 30s,but all I heard was not very good.I dont think we need that again,but here it is,and its being given to us by the same political side it was before.Throw a hissy fit,lie about it,point fingers,but it doesnt change the facts.Making the rich richer and the poor poorer is not just a phrase,its a humiliation to the American people handed to us by guess who?If it makes you feel better,most politicians may as well be nnalert now.Seems like you all only wanted that from the start.Now that you all run things,got your way,corrupted government to the point it just does nothing but give money to corporations,and only the paid off side has a voice anymore,no matter what politicians call themselves they are all nnalert,why arent you happy?

Its not easy to answer a political question that affects our country like it does in just a couple of sentences.You could but they would be mostly cuss words.Whoevr inherits this mess is going to help it or hurt it.I dont have a lot of confidence in the nnalert or so they say,but absolutely none in the nnalert.Strangely these are the ones against the"bailout".Like a broken clock its right 2 times a day.While they may be right this time(the House nnalert)I bet their reason for it has no resemblance to any reason I could think of.I actually think this group of people may be some of the dumbest to ever be elected to public office,and if they had stood up 8 years ago we would not be in this mess now.Disgusting.
Untitled URL Link

You know you attacked me personally.I am somehow responsible in your mind?Wow,Im a mechanic.I know History to the extent of what Ive heard and read and dont see where you can say what you said.I probably am a little older than you,but from the time I grew up until you did the nnalert did not become your friend,they just told more lies.The nnalert dragged us into the first Depression by accident,or ignorance,or greed,and are doing it this time by deciet.Not even all the nnalert can stomach it.Both sides have some part in it,but History is not on your side if you think nnalert are for you,they are for corporations,and have even corrupted the nnalert by putting their vote up for sale,or being just decietful people like Nancy Pelosi who may as well be a nnalert,not the first phony like that either I might add,Ronald Reagan started out as a nnalert then became a "turncoat"nnalert.

I see what you are saying.My answer was too simplistic,after reading it again I see how it sounds kind of know it all ish.I dont know everything for sure.Im sure I can be wrong.Heck Im no History major,but that doesnt mean I dont know anything either.The History I read was mostly in school,and then what family and neighbors said about it,quite a bit,but all of them were farmers mostly.I will say that I am always going to lean to the farmer side of things because thats what my family did for thousands of years.I went to a country school in a farm community in the 60s and early 70s and things looked a lot different to me obviously than they do to you all for some reason.Ill say this you are right about buyouts and its people that steal money not banks.However if you are the one being bought out,at least you have that,but you are out of business,but the business survived maybe.True people at banks steal money,not the banks,but in this case I think its maybe not right to say steal,but people in banks are relieving taxpayers of 700 billion dollars.Could just be the way you look at it or where you look at it from,a bank could be a group of people stealing money hiding behind the name bank.

I think history,for whatever reason,kind of sugar coats things,and I could be wrong too.Maybe Hoover did try things that didnt work,Im sure he did.Where the problem was,and still is now,is that the people that were advising him,or his own wrong thinking,just like this administration,could not get the right answers because they would not hear them.Also while the Depression was bad,there was the Dust bowl,and other stuff,which caused pain at the same time.However the real problem seems to be to me of the Depression was that the money,if you could get any,was worthless,or there was nothing to buy.A sack full of money couldnt buy a ripe tomato if all the dirt blew away and nobody raised any.People on farms could eat,but hogs,crops,even land was not worth a lot.In a way its like that now,dollar is only worth 50 cents and whatever they pay for your crops isnt enough as high as fertilizer land and machinery is.Lots more people farmed then,and just left the farm to go somewhere else during the dust bowl.You dont want that to happen today or you and lots of others will be hungry.Yeah I have been on a farm,and we grew our food,and it can get to where its not any fun if you are broke.I just dont know what its like yet to have a bunch of money and not be able to buy anything.I will accept your criticizm,but dont loose sight of the facts.Just because things are not exactly one way or another does not change the facts of who is responsible and why.While these may not be as important as how you are going to survive,will still remain in everybodys memory for a long time.

This would not be a problem if the right people ran things Im sure.One of the biggest problems now days is the people runnig things dont represent us.They represent big money.As long as they do,and are allowed to run things,it will get worse.To fix it you have to stop putting the crooks and bullies in charge,and put people in that do the right things,or throw them out.

Its easy to say after the fact that somebody did this or that and caused all this.True or not things will be said.However as a group of citizens our generation will know what happened,and who did it.I dont care who says what,we know,and its running 50-1 against a bailout.What would happen if real finacial people were brought in to fix this.It would get fixed.Nobody in charge wants this because they dont want to fix it,they want like you do,to crash it.That is so stupid and it just makes my bloodpressure climb through the roof.Thats your opinion.Well that about says it.Up above I say that the nnalert are about the dumbest people to ever be elected to office in this group.Do you see any reason why I might come to that conclusion,or do you think Im wrong?Sure you do,but Im done,the folks that read this can decide.

Soon they'll find a way to the tax the air we breathe. Or have an assets tax (tax everything you own after you already own it) as if it isn't enough to have income tax, sales tax, property tax, gas tax, levies etc. etc. I still don't understand any of these taxes (why they exist). Maybe each one of us should start taxing the government for services we (unlike them) actually provide. Did we or did we not revolt against England because we disagreed with their govt., laws and TAXES?

How about lowering taxes for everyone, or even better, eliminating most taxes. Keep fire, road, and library levies. What else do we need? Let the rest find their own way to make money.

As for the bailout we didn't (at least I didn't)force banks to loan to everyone who wanted a house. I have little sympathy for some of these banks who are flat out idiotic when it comes to managing money. Its a free country. Banks should be able to fail or succeed with their own money. Cut all the bankers, lawyers, lobbyists and politicans' pay by 20% or even 10% and we'd come up with $700 billion in no time.

I downloaded the FEMA plans and the Mother Earth (former Member Douglasville Chapter) wood burning truck diagrams, looking for parts and pieces now, and ideas. I have some land with a creek running thur it and thinking about planting sugar cane, for alcohol, I live north of Atlanta and gas is still short here. Proud to hear there is someone out there thinking as I do. Guess this old dog is about to learn some new tricks.. WD

Our daughter (history major) sent me a book on the Dust Bowl. The price of wheat was good in the late 1920's

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Toss that book in the Dumpster.

Wheat hit $2.45 a bushel in 1918, then collapsed shortly afterward. It was down to a $1.00 a bushel in 1923 then rose to $1.50 in 1926 before it began a steady decline (back to a $1.00 in 1928). By the time the dust bowl started (in 1931) wheat was at .55 a bushel.

It wasn't the high prices that drove farmers to break out more land to plant but lack of income that drove them to attempt to raise any kind of cash crop they could put in. Corn prices took a similar price ride over the same years.


http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1532.html

Sarbanes-Oxley is more involved then just valuations. It is aimed at assuring the financial statements are accurate and there isn't three card monty going on

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Sarbanes-Oxley is the root of most of this problem. The mortgage backed bonds these investment firms own are currently unmarketable. Because of this Sarbanes-Oxley requires that they have a book value of $0. This makes the investment bank under capitalized and severly limits their ability to operate.

Problem is the bonds are not worthless - they just aren't liquid. Some of the mortagages that are used to back them have gone bad and no one wants to buy them without know exactly how many have gone bust. But they are still worth at least 90% of their face value or more. All you have to do is hold them to maturity. If they would relax or eliminate the valuation rule of Sarbanes and let the banks revalue them to a "best estimate" (like 90%) the bank crisis goes away over night.



The government bailout will mean the government buys the bonds and holds them to maturity or unbundles the mortgages and sells the good ones and liquidates the bad ones. That's why the government has no idea what the real cost to the tax payers will be in the end but it won't be 700 billion. There's even a chance the government could make money on this (if you eliminate the time value of money).

What I posted above has nothing to do with the bailout of Freddie and Fannie. That one will cost hundreds of billions in outright fraud and graft and thousands of people (lenders and borrowers alike for falsified loan documents) should be headed for prison.

See dermesc post above. Regulations to limit buying investments "on margin". that is, limited the percentage of investments that people could make with borrowed money - those regulations were relaxed.

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Exactly - only that was/is the case for home mortgages and the enforcement by Freddie and Fannie. The stock market rules from the 1930s are all still in place.

Yes, it's likely that if FDR had not created the New Deal programs, many things would of fixed themselves. But, we'll never know for sure. And if it had, we'd never know for sure why. He did, however, create relief for many people - at the expense of other's. Those that got relief worshiped FDR. My dad (dead a long time ago) was a lifetime nnalert because of FDR and his "fireside chats" on the radio.

On the other hand, if FDR hadn't ignored and abandoned France and underground fighter Charles DeGaulle, and gotten the USA more involved in WWII earlier, the Depression would of probably ended sooner. That is kind of ironic since it was a leading French industrialist that came to the USA, and was hired by our government to get our factories going into weapons prodution TO fight in WWII.

I know France gets trashed a lot - but - they were our allies for a long time and in several wars. Not too long before the Depression started here, many rural French citizens were starving to death. The farming village in southern France where my grandmother lived was completely destroyed. Farm animals all killed, food stores eaten by the enemy or destroyed, and all buildings burnt to the ground. That is why she came to the US in 1914 via Ellis Island -all by herself.

I concur. I heard yesterday that the president of WaMu had only been on the job for 3 weeks and is leaving with 20 million.

They say democracies only last about 200, as then we become lazy, forget what it is that out founders were fighting and dying for, and collapse from within. So many people wanting something for nothing from the government, no personal responsiblity required of anyone, and as you said, taxes on top of taxes on top of taxes.

"They" may be right.

Yet another tome by t-40 that says nothing. Kinda like listening to a speech from Gabby Johnson in the movie "Blazing Saddles"!

Can you imagine what the press would have done to Dan Quale if he'd said that?

I have an Aunt living in your neck of the woods ....maybee a little east and north of Atlanta, Is your creek seasonal??? Maybe some hydro power???

My wife's parents on both sides and family were Detroit autoworkers during the Depression. They told me they often got their cash from Canadian banks when they needed it. Not sure how that all worked though. We were just talking about it a few days ago - since we're wondering if cash might get hard to get here now or soon (in the US). I know several people that are getting 20K-30K in cash and stashing it at home, just in case.

"If a CEO of a major company get 140 Million most on stock options and that company goes broke then what does he have. (Hint: worthless paper)"
Unless he knows his company is going to tank and unloads everything, while he tells others to keep buying.

Truman gave the first televised presidential address in 1947. Not many people got to watch it since so few owned TVs.

Yeah that was a good movie,especially when he knocked out that horse.

I WILL AVOID INDIANA FROM NOW ON

T-40 as usual wrong again. Ronald Reagan didn't leave the democratic party, the democratic party left him. As to the rest if your ridiculous rant, it is well documented that it is the nnalert that caused this economic meltdown!

IR, where are you, old doom and gloom here. Here's what's going to go on. Your congress will put on a great show, then all the ones that are lined out to vote which way, will vote that way and both houses will pass it by a vote or two.
The other game that's being played is stock market points to scare the public. It dipped to minus 600 for a few seconds, I thought the market was suppose to shut down if it went too low. And how could it dip to 600 for a few seconds, it doesn't even sell that fast and it's an average? Play Play Play
Instead of propping up old crooked banks, why not use that money to make a brand new solvent bank, couple they already bought are the F&F Ma.

The creek is good it may get low if we have a dry spell but it always has a flow. Back in the day many a gallon of Georgia cold aid was made on the creek. I have an idea about a large wheel and a car rear-end and manual transmission, turn it backwards from the wheel end and use the transmission to shift gears to get the rpms up on a heavy flywheel to turn something. It may not work but just an idea of mine.