The problems with newer machines

I'm sure many of you remember the threads awhile back about the newer machines being "junk". Hopefully this one won't turn into that but I wanted to share a problem I heard about today concerning a newer machine owned by a customer of ours.

I've mentioned the machine a couple of times in various threads. It's a Linkbelt crane, set up as a dragline. Dad was inlisted as an independent consultant, and he and several of others in the their company were flown to FLA. to inspect the machine before the purchase was made. All of them told the "suits", to walk away but they bought the machine anyway. It's been nothing but a problem since day one. It's been down several times with hydraulic problems, three months spent waiting on fairlead parts, etc, etc, etc. Now for the latest and greatest.

Now it's down with engine problems. Thankfully I'm not directly involved in this fiasco, yet, only researching "behind the scenes" and trying to help them out, so I'm simply relying on what I've been told.

Basically the local Linkbelt dealership (CAT) doesn't have the diagnostic tools and doesn't want to spend the "tens of thousands" to buy them (if they are available anywhere at the moment ????), and the cranes OEM (Linkbelt) is in basically the same boat itself having no diagnostic tools. The regional Mitsubishi engine distrubutor doesn't have the proper diagnostic tools and further the actual OEM (Mitsubishi) doesn't have them either. Supposidly the engine OEM had three of them but burned them up using them on 24 volt systems. Guess what, this machine runs a 24 volt electrical system so NOBODY has the tools nor a clue where to get the diagnostic tools to work on this machine.

I talked to the engine distributor this afternoon and was told that they are thinking, based on the system 'flash codes' that it's a speed sensor problem in the injection pump but without the proper diagnostic tools it's not a sure diagnosis. If it turns out to be either one or both of the speed sensors in question then the pump has to come off and be rebuilt.

Therein lies another problem, finding a shop with the capabilities/tooling to rebuild this particular pump. Seems it's special in and of itself so the chances of that are slim as well.

Basically the customer has a machine worth $500,000 plus setting idle because even neither the OEM for the machine proper, nor the engines OEM have the proper tools to support their own equipment and repair it.

So the difference in the new machine and the old one...The newer one is sitting, broke, with no repair in sight....The machine it was bought to replace, a 30+ year old Northwest 9570 we rebuilt for them and have helped maintain for the past 8+ years (for waaaay less than $500,000) is up once again up and running without missing a beat. Except for a few worn bushings that have needed to be replaced over the years and the normal wear and tear expected on a dragline, the old NW has consistantly run like a top. Funny thing, it uses mechanical/shaft drives for everything, "outdated" air controls for the clutches, etc, and a Murphy engine that has changed little since itwas origionally designed in the 30's. Basically everything about the machine is what many consider "outdated technology" but according to the operator, it moves nearly twice the material the new machine does and uses 1/2 to 1/3 the fuel doing it.

Old vs New....no arguments, please.... but you decide...

I was the 'not so proud' owner of this Freightliner truck for about a year and a half. I got it new-had two titles-one for the frame (Freightliner) and one for the body (Morgan Olson). Even had problems titling that one in Nebraska! It had a 4 cylinder, turbo charged and intercooled, Mercedes diesel engine in it. Thought I should add a block heater to it-asked my Freightliner dealer if they needed to check if they had one for it-they did not check, and it was special-had to order it. It needed rear brakes at 24,000 miles-asked them AGAIN if they needed to check if they had them in stock. They did not, and had put the old pads in the trash already. They wanted to keep it in the shop that way until they could get the pads-I said NO! "Put the old pads back in it." Good thing I said that-it took them 2 weeks to get the proper brake pads. Not as severe as you described, but poor dealer service non the less. Greg

Sounds like the problem was caused more by typical pig headed human nature. People often do what they want to do, even when warned that it'll lead to trouble.

That said, my wife used to work in research and development, not on such machines, but it translates well. Some of her coworkers struck me as being really full of themselves. One of her bosses was a PhD. He was trying to build a stool at home and could not get the legs level. A carpenter who was doing some roof work for him told him that he ought to use three legs rather than four and it would work easily. The PhD told my wife later that he had been ashamed that a mere trademan had told him what he should have known to do anyway. I was shocked about his attitude when she told me the story. A man who has humility will learn an awful lot, but it seems like that is a dirty word to many people.

Just my 2 cents.

Christopher

You know,this story uncovers yet another really bad problem with this country.Just because some person goes to college,gets out and wears a suit,their opinion is still used over the men with experience.The bottom line is big companies make stuff,put it out there,at every level,and there is nobody holding them accountable,except the public.Since most people cant buy the crooked lawyers they can,nothing gets done about it.Its a lie,but they hide behind the"free market system"crap and just dont care about much but how much money they make.Something that costs $500,000 should not be a throw away item.Whoever is responsible,the people that sold it or the people that made it should have to pay a fine for not being able to fix it.I think there was,maybe still is a law that a company has to support its products for 15 years after they make them.Maybe there needs to be a lemon law on something like that where they have to replace it if they cant fix it in a couple of weeks.Believe me if they had to replace it or fix it,they would be crawling all over it in a hurricane fixing it or trying to.Untill somebody makes them,they arent going to do anything,and the suits will not learn anything and make the same mistakes over again.Something like running into a tree over and over expecting different results.

Ever wonder why the new machine has the more complex equipment? It's because of the tree huggers trying to eliminate the internal combustion engine.
They can't outright ban combustion engines but they figure on slowly choking the engines out of existance with rules, regulations and cost.
Much the same way the "do-gooders" and safety nazis are eliminating personal ownership of firarms.
Rather than blaming somebody that didn't drop out of school. How about complaining to the wackos and the scared politicians?

this is a bad deal all the way around, bean counters tryed to save money and bought a machine that used to be a good brand, but has been bought out and taken over by a "world company" the result is no parts or service support, the company i work for has probably 12 pieces of heavy construction equipment, excavators dozers graders, ect, but all are either cat or john deere, the primary reason is parts and service support, if they break down and they do if we cant fix it, the factory guy is out here the next day and he gets it fixed and back to work, i wish for the days when american made meant just that, instead of all this weird junk that seems to show up in everything, on the same topic i was looking at a truck sales paper yesterday, in it was a 1966 chevy pickup the owner had restored it from the frame up literaly with the photos and paperwork to prove it, new everything, priced at 24,000, now when we look at a new chevy on the lot for 50,000 plus and all the computer crap on it that will eventually give trouble, the '66 is a heck of a better deal, looks great and no black boxes, why cant we go back to making trucks like that and at a price a man can afford to pay?

Look you can try and make that argument but if you look a little closer at what you are talking about the tree huggers are on the same side as the crooks.They say treehuggers sell them on the spotted owl story and we split the money because of the government spending.Yeah well the new machine is a good idea,so is the new technology,except the crooks want you to have to bring it to them to be fixed.World companies are too stupid to get that,they follow all the buzz word ideas"intellectual property"and whatever,but dont have anything to back their product up with,and it will bankrupt them,which is also bad because then nobody has a chance of fixing the"technology" then.Technology is a good thing.In the hands of crooks,well its not worth anything,except to the crooks.

I made a comment to a dealer once about all the electronic BS on vehicles and machinery today .

his reply was, if no changes where made,every one would still be driving T fords today.

There is some truth in this statement,but things have a way to get out of control.

the people that ultimately buy these things are to blame themselves.

I see your post not so much as an argument, but as a warning. And rightly so. We should always keep an eye down the road where we are headed.

It's bit off topic but it still has to do with machinery. I work in the packaging industry and we have many machines that are 20+ years old running nearly around the clock. Most of them were top of the line when new and are generally easily repaired if a problem does come up. Lately our current group of engineers has been replacing equipment rather than investing in what we have and most of the stuff they are buying is crap. The salesmen all talk a good line and the machines are nice and shiney but they can't hold a candle to the old "outdated" machines. It's really sad to see good dependable equipment put out to pasture because of misinformed people.

So you are back to the same old" I'm not in on the deal making the $$$" .So I don't like it?
Most of the equipment problem is high school dropout jackleg mechanics who don't know an electron from a photon.
Any half decent tradesman can use a multimeter and a scope to trace out a dud sensor. Then ring out a suspect wiring harness. They can also read the computer outputs.
The fear of the unknown is a terrifying thing. People will fight harder to stay ignorant than what it takes to learn.

Wayne we have the same thing happening at work every day. I run some very expensive Japenese machines that are a perfect example of what you are talking about. The man that designed them is now old and retired is basically a consultant. I met him once in 15 years. He was brilliant. The men who are now refining these machines and continuing the building of them are not as good at it as he was. The machines now come in with more sensors, different designs in the electronics, safety switches all over (OSHA) and a plethera of design changes and rennovations that have almost rendered them useless. The original old clunkers run almost non stop 24-7 and the new breed are almost always not running to a point where the company is going to have to consider scrapping them out. There are some really intelligent people in this world that can design some very impressive things but hardly anybody is trained to fix them. Sometimes the original guys that built them come to our factory and look at them and scratch their heads and can't get them running. I have had best success with new technology if I use it up right away. Drive the new car 200,000 miles in 5 years and get rid of it. Old technology you can keep around much longer and have much less problems with it, although it has many less frills. Farmall H for example. How many 2008 Kubota tractors will be running in the year 2070? !!

I talked to a vendor at work a few years ago, we were involved with upgrading all the plc's to a new version. Did not make the machines more efficient, run faster or offer any advantage. Some salesman sold the engineering department on the idea. A million dollars for nothing. Probably some manager got paid off.

Like I always tell my friends, computers and heavy equipment don't mix. I understand why they put computers in these days is:
1)To charge more for base price and maintenance.
2)So that people with very little knowledge can operate them.( Highly unsafe in my opinion.)
3)To try to put the old equipment out of work.(Thank OSHA and the government for that.)
Just look at some of the construction co.'s that the newest pice might be '96 or less cause the older stuff just runs, runs & runs. Must of us use older equipment just cause of that fact.EX:My 1952 MM BF.

Well, it sounds like enough is enough with Link-Belt. They built the unit and sourced the engine.
If they are telling you to go to Mitsubishi for service, tell Mitsubishi you are hiring a lawyer and every hours it sits idle, they are being billed the rate that it would be earning working on a jobsite. They have an obligation to supply parts and service for 10 years after it is built for service life.
Tell Link-Belt the same thing. They are halfway responsible since they put the engine in there.
The fact that they burned up the service tools is their own fault, not yours.
The number one concern here is that the unit is back up and running and paying for itself. If it can"t do that because of the manufacturer or dealer, they need to supply you a replacement unit or give you guys your money back.

Well its not that simple a lot of times.First you would have to have a technician that knew where to look.I realize thats what computers are for,to lead you in the right direction,but without having the ability to plug in to the machine(since the manufacturer burnt up the test equipment)it would be hard to know where to find that sensor.Sounds as if somebody guessed that the problem was in the pump.Well what is a guess worth on a $500,000 dollar piece of equipment?Thats a sorry,sorry way of backing up your product.If everything is turning into this,get ready for a world of mad people.I have an example of a car that has lots of computer controls on it that I am ready to burn.Ive called Ford more than one time to get a hint where to look and half the time they were wrong,plus did not want to work on it either.On the other hand on my Kenworth with a Cummins engine,every time I had to call them they were right,or in the right area,and one time had to hook it to a computer that went to their headquarters in Texas,and properly diagnosed it,and fixed it,with a $175 dollar sensor,with only one day downtime.You want to defend the wrong side,go ahead.This stuff is going to be in the junk yard probably because of not thinking ahead,simple as that.I worked on Televisions when I was a kid that you could fix,what do you do with them now?Sure,I am for technology,just not for the mafia way of thinking of making it work for the thief side.If you have to pay exhorbinate prices just to find some little gizmo that costs 5 dollars is causing your machine not to work,it gets way past mad instantly.Think of it like this,no matter how big and bad you think you are,somebody is bigger,badder,and people with equipment like that wont put up with it,from you,or anybody else.Word travels fast on something like that,and it causes companies to go broke.My example of Cummins,well when you have a few million motors out there,you better be able to fix them,period,or you will be bankrupt before you can think about it.I know people in construction,and while I just dont know a lot about it,I know some,and I never heard of Mitsubishi being a major manufacturer of construction power plants,and according to this story,its not likely they will be either.As always I could be wrong.