What is junk about them?

Heard a lot of talk about the newer tractors being junk. I farm with 30 year old tractors that were built in the late 70's and early 80's.

Yeah they take a little maintaining to keep them doing there job, day in and day out, but so did the 1940 and 1950 models.

I believe those tractors of the 40's thru the 70's took some maintenance also to keep them running. They just don't get used as much today so less maintenance is needed.

There were tractors in the shop to be worked on back in the 50's just as they are today.

Lets put it this way, I have a MTA, 300, 560, 1066, 1086, 1086, and MX200. I put about 30 to 80 hours a year on the oldest 3 tractors and 100-200 hours a year on the newer 4.

Which ones do you thing I work on the most?

Not the 4 newer ones.

Parts and labor may be higher priced for the newer ones but they will do more work also.

Farmers probably said the same thing when they went from the horses to the tractors.

"Never had to tune that horse up all the time".

But look how much more work he got done with the tractor.

Which required more maintenance a 1946 Chevy or a 2004 Chevy, per mile.

Use them old tractors like we do the newer ones and they break down also.

Just my view.

Gary

However,

On the other side of the coin, they don't like to just "sit" either.

Seen that one over and over again. The more they sit parked, the more attention they seem to need and want.

Kinda like women. :>)

Allan

well if you dont use em you cant break them,,

I have mostly older tractors , a few antiques, 8n ,a nd such, a few older farmalls, and a few 80 ish tractors, and one new well 4 yrs old now new holland,,

I believe the general consensus on new tractors being "junk" is that they are mostly plastic hood parts and such, the craftsmanship is about the same as anything new today, cars,trucks , tools etc,,

I know I cant get all my 55 horses to the ground on my new tractor its just to light and short,, my 65 super major will walk circles around it,, but I dont have to work on the engine or anything "yet" on the newer one,,

I just think the major drawback is the weight and short wheelbases,, I looked at a bigger , more horsepower tractor,, and it wasnt much bigger than my tn55,,

but I like the fact I can go out work i t and not have to tinker on it a few hrs / days to use it again,,

but I like to do it with my older tractors,, until I really need it and it breaks,, but again if you dont use it it wont break,, just my 2 cents,,, I get change back most of the time haha,pat

Pure conjecture at this point, but which would you suppose would require more time, money, and attention? That 40 year old tractor now, Or, that new tractor 40 years from now?

I bet you will get more hours out of engine on a new one before overhaul then they did the old ones.

There are 8 year old tractors out here with over 8000 hours that have not had an overhaul. Try that with an Farmall M. Rear ends are still untouched also.

Now air conditioning, radio, cab doors, lights and other acssesories will go but that is what you pay for comfort.

Gary

As a heavy equipment mechanic by trade I feel like I can give a little input here. I don't work on farm machinery that much but in the grand scheme of things a tractor is a tractor and the technology is spreading through the tractor world as a whole. True every machine requires maintenance wether it's old or the newest one off the dealerships lot. The differences I see are in the ways things were done then vs now. On an older machine if the throttle broke it was usually an easily diagnosed problem. Replace a ball end or linkage shaft, something that could be done both easily and cheaply by anyone with readily available parts in an hour or two. Nowdays if a throttle goes on many machines it's a matter of a $1000 stepper motor, $2500 worth of wiring harness, or a $1500 computer, or a combination of all three none of which the dealership has in stock. Then add labor and mileage for a day to pickup and change the computer and stepper motor, over a week to change the three wiring harnesses and it gets pretty pricey. I just went through that fiasco with a CAT excavator just to be able to flow test the main pump which was bad so there's another $5000 in the machine. All the electronics, the computer, etc is all supposed to save the customer money on fuel by making the machine more efficient and maybe it does when it's all working properly. Problem is when one or more parts go bad the whole machine is down for several days in order to troubleshoot, order parts, and get them replaced and hole the next week link doesn't show up when you get the one part replaced. All of this is money out of the customers pocket in repair cost plus downtime when the machine is setting. In the case I just mentioned there was $4000 worth of parts just to fix the throttle and get the engine to go to full RPM's, plus nearly two weeks of labor and mileage and downtime. The electronic throttle setup may have saved him a thousand in fuel each year but all that money saved on fuel just got spent buying parts and labor and lost in downtime. In the end where is the savings when it's now gonna take several more years of operation just to make back the money spent over and above the fuel savings, and that's not factoring in the possibility of any future problems? Knew another customer who spent several weeks down while the dealership trouble shot his machine and eventually replace the computer several times along with various other shot in the dark repairs. After all that time the root cause of the engine smoking and shutting down was a minor restriction in the fuel filter that was causing just enough differential pressure drop for the computer to sense and change the timing of the engine. Fortunately his problem was under warranty but the end result was weeks down and labor costs because of a slightly dirty fuel filter. That wouldn't have happened with an older machine. Fenders now being made of plastic instead of metal so if the get hit and crack they aren't repairable. Huge pieces of specially curved glass to give better visibility, which is great until you have to pay to have them replaced. Then what happens in 20 years when the tractor, by some miracle, is still going and you want to replace a piece but it's been discontinued. Flat glass or a piece of lexan never goes out of style and is always available. These are just a few of the things I see on a continuing basis that, to me, make the new machines junk. They have come "so far" technologically that the smallest thing, that comparibly on an older machine would have been a minor nuicense or a cheap and easy fix at the most, will shut down the entire machine and require weeks of troubleshooting and expensive electronic parts to repair. You can't bypass the throttle with a piece of bailing wire, you can't jump the starter and get the machine running because the alternator has a bad diode and is telling the computer the engine is running (yes they do that nowdays), and on and on. Give me an older machine any day. Yes they might not be as cushy to operate but at the end of the day they are simple, easy to work on, and are as if not more reliable than a new one. But that's just my opinion based on the machines that I work on.

You`re right on. Another one that gets me is fuel usage.

I had a 1085 massey, that 4 cyl perkins was great on fuel. I cut hay with it with a 9 ft haybine. I went up this year in hay acres and had to make a move. I needed more horse on the baler and for some more tillage work. I couldn`t justify keeping the 1085 and buying a bigger machine, so I sold it.

I bought a 4430 and traded my old 9ft in on a 499 12ft swing tongue. My father in law was telling me what a huge mistake that was, I may as well pour diesel fuel on the ground.

I kept track and I use 3 1/2 gallons an hour cutting hay, the massey was about 2. The kicker is with the bigger cut and being able to line up on one end of a field go, I`ve cut my time darn near in half on most fields. So figure that one out.

Ideally, I could have kept the 1085 for cutting and lighter work, but you gotta do what you can afford.

Hopefully, in a few years if I keep at it, I`ll be shopping again for a discbine and a newer 110-130 horse tractor.

Don`t get me wrong I love my old tractors and they have their place and get used, but when you have a family and two jobs, you gotta be able to hit the ground running.

Before I bought th 4430 I would use a friends 8670 New Holland for heavier stuff and there is something to be said for operator comfort in the newer tractors also..

My humble opinion is that there is just not the tough raw spirit in the newer ones as there was in the old. Plus all the computer activated sensors and gauges are ensuring the parts department will have steady customers and they have the parts priced to keep the cash flow in tact for the dealer. But I also agree with Allan big time that this sitting in the shed waiting for a date is bad for that tough raw spirit. Got about 40 of them ready for the show here the last two weeks and they all had an ache and a pain except the 1468 which was more than ready to come out and play. Migraine

The disparity in maintenance requirements comes to mind often when I'm rolling about like a beached whale on a creeper under my '48 Hudson, greasing approximately 25 zerks and adjusting the brakes (for those under age 40, you had to manually adjust your brakes every 5,000 miles or so- get all the wheels off the ground, use a little spade-like tool to tighten a star wheel through a slot in the backing plate, then back off a couple of clicks. That was the primary reason there were "service stations" back in the day, with hydraulic chassis lifts).

Part of the dislike for newer equipment is that most owners, operators and mechanics. Would rather place their hand in a pail of snakes or shake a politicians hand. Before trying to trace out an electrical/electronics system.
Much of these service nightmares stem from so called "mechanics" who are merely "parts changers". And dealerships who don"t mind the profit from selling extra unrequired parts.
I"ve worked with people who will refuse to take the time or the work/mental effort to trace out a machine and understand how it operates.

I've never had any of the "newer" Internationals, but the Super MTA and 300 in your list, they are both very good tractors, they don't need a lot of work done on them, they are just about always running and working as they should, if yours are like our SMTA and 300, they are excellent tractors.

I am a jack of all trades ,selfeducated , mechanic by trade.I have a 1800 acre ranch and a repair busines.I run all[old] tractors and equipment.this is by choice altough money played biiig part in desiding.it all boils down to economics.I run my 3 tractors about 100 hrs each yr.2 are 1855 oliver 1972, 1 1978 belarus 800 with frt ldr.one runs the haybine,other one the baler.the belarus is the chore horse.1963 112 JD lawn tractor,picked up for $50.- 15 yrs ago. 1950 AC HD10 cat $4200.- 15 yrs ago,paid for itself clearing fenceline in 1st yr.
paid $12000.- for all 3 tractors 20 yrs ago, spend maybe $9000.- in parts over the years incl tires.Payments on 1 new tractor would prob exeed that.
equipment is no newer than 82,and paid for,bought used as well. all machinery is kept mechanicly in top condition,but the color of them are slowly matching to an even brown.The wife,animals and i don't complain. but the neighbors snicker,they run shiny green and red stuff,but come to me to keep it running as soon as warranty expires.and spend enough on repairs so i COULD but dont buy a brandnew truck a yr.
the older stuff has no pesky electronics and when a batt,gen or starter goes south a quik pull gets you back to work for the day.so for economy sake alone the old beats the new by 20 country miles IMO

How about this fence straddler of an answer? BOTH have their place. Newer equipment is luxurious compared to some of the oldies. Better for long hours in harsh conditions. Better hydraulics, better lighting, safer, long term warranties, argueably more efficient, and without arguement MUCH more expensive and much more involved to spin wrenches on, even for those who know how and understand the modern systems. That fits in the operation and lifestyle of SOME folks.

But they're way off target for a lot of users.

Simple, inexpensive, relatively basic tractors have a great market. You know why? Because they're a perfect match for many. As the "new generation" of tractors reaches their senior years, there'll still be a market for simple basic cheap horsepower. Will todays tractors be able to fill that niche? Probably not.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. It can be BOTH. And as time goes along, the oldies that are still in good condition will INCREASE in value as the numbers dwindle. Just too many of us out there that have a few acres, 2 cows, and 30 acres of pasture to mow. Not all of us even want to try to justify buying a $50,000 tractor to do what a $5000 will do just as well.

Back 40 or 50 years ago, there were some GREAT tractors built. There were a few real pigs too. Same applies today. There are a few really outstanding models and brands, along with a few stinkers. You just have to pick the one that fits YOUR needs the best.

NCWayne, Thanks for your sanity in a world gone insane. Unfortunately the masses just don't get it.

I like my older tractors and use them quite alot but when I need to do real work, I get on my newer tractors. If I could I would buy new and trade every 5-6 years.

I agree,lots of these changes or so called improvements are engineers trying to keep(justify) their jobs.

I see the same thing happening on cars and trucks...what happens when the seat belt indicator goes out because of a bad ground and the darn bell won't shut up....$100 diagnostic charge, 5 hrs @ 50/hr to run a new wire harness under all the plastic trim all for a dang saftey feature that you could live without...makes me nervous to trade in my '99 chevy for a newer model.

I'm afraid tractor manufactures are taking a page from the auto manufacturer's playbook by purposefully designing them not to last.

Do you think your grandson will restore your MX200 including replacing all the sun bleached brittle plastic or will it go to scrap?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
Planned Obsolescence

We've been putting 700+ hours a year on our MX240 and now at 4,000 hours it's only needed a few small things. Our 5140 gets the same number of hours and I'm guessing it at over 10,000 hours with only a few small repairs as well. Part of the reason for the amount of electronic's is because engines have to have them to pass EPA rules and what the new common rail engines can do is amazing compared to older mechanically injected engines. Electronic shifting lets the computer tell the transmission when and how to shift, it can do a better job than the driver and it's part of the reason transmissions last so long these days.

Look at the newer service manuals when you talk about changing parts. Komatsu is notorious, and CAT isn"t far behind, for saying to do a check and depending on the result change a part (wether it"s a $1500 computer or a $20 wire connection) and then redo the check. Depending on the result as to wether the changed part was actually the problem. The CAT I mentioned I mentioned working on was the same way. Check code, follow flow chard, change stated part, redo check, follow flow chart til the same or another problem/part showed as bad.....and on and on. I love working on the older stuff, it has it"s monents but typically you can see what the problem was, not change $$4000 worth of parts an have the problem disappear and all you know is that there was a problem with one or more wires "somewhere" in the 2" diameter, 25 foot long bundle of wiring. That will make anyone feel like a parts changer wether they really are or not.

My 1500 chevy is soooo much better than any truck I ever owned (70 F250, 82 Jeep J10 99 f250 etc) that it is impossible to compare. No maintainace issues (ok the speedometer went out but was warranted at 1000m) and it has 156,000 and no problems in sight. I would not have dreamed of keeping a pre '80s truck past 100,000.

I don't think it's a question of "why do people think new stuff is junk" but it's more of a question "why are things so expensive."

Gradually, people buy up the used "new junk," and still complain about the new ones all the time. Just my theory, no hard feelings.

It's about the same way here.... the old ones require most of the work on a per hour of use basis.
There's a lot of new gear out there today that goes to work from new, does 10000+ hours without any major repairs and probably not too many minor repairs and then it goes to the melter when something big goes wrong.
I believe that if you're going to run new gear, then you buy it, run it hard and fast, wear it out in under 10 years and then be rid of it. Once the electrical systems start to decay a person will be in for trouble... Interestingly, they haven't yet developed an electrical system that can stand up too well over the long term. There's just too much heat, vibration, moisture and dirt on a lot of tractors to survive that over the long haul. That said, I'd still prefer to run the newer gear. The old stuff is just too inefficient to be of much use in today's world.

What I am working with is from the 80's an 90's. That's kind fo a dangerous area because the production numbers were so low by then that it's not terribly economical for any of the manufacturers to maintain a parts supply for those things. Obsolence will come for them. Older tractors from the 40's, 50's and 60's are still well supported for the simple reason that there are still a lot of those tractors out there, were a LOT more than that built and they require a lot of parts to keep them running...
I will say that today's engines, drive trains and hard parts of the machines are better designed and built than they ever were before. The basics are better. It's the electrics that will kill most of them...

Rod

Sounds like the the Cat manuals are woefully short on info.
Many times just a continuity check on a wiring harness and across the connectors will find many troubles. Crusty,rusty loose chassis return connections are regulars.
On cards, modules etc, a check of the cards power supply/filter then checking for traffic data on the buss will often find the trouble.
Corrupted data from electrical noise is common.
A $1500 card will also show a false fault due to a $49.99 sensor failure/mis-adjustment.
The function of a sensor,card, wiring harness and computer can be checked. Just by either injecting a test voltage,current or frequency and look for the appearance or absence of the data on the system.
The good old dunking a sensor in hot water, applying pressure or waving it past metal will verify most faults.
A half decent ohmmeter and a $100 surplus oscilloscope will find most of the faults.
Most of the time the faults trace back to rodents, big clumsy feet, panels doors left off/not properly installed let moisture,heat,dirt or oil enter.And damaged incurred during assembly, maintenance or service.

I remember when I bought my '95 S-10, Papu was admiring it.

He retired about 30 years earlier, before I was around anyway. As we talked, I mentioned something...maybe it was 100,000 mile spark plugs? Anyway, conversation came around to how he remembers rebuilding engines every 15,000 miles.

Sure, a lot simpler to work on. Also required being worked on a lot more.

My experience of working on manufacturing equipment is that the newer stuff is much more reliable and productive. Due to modular design, if a board goes out, it's out. It is not economical to repair the electronics. Service techs I worked with were getting maybe $25 per hour, often less. The OEM charges for thier time was usually $130 + per hour, with minimuns for drive time and a service call. That usually meant a 8 hour charge, just to show up. And with the equipment so expensive and work needing to be done, we can't wait for repairs.

A lot have made these new tractors sound like they are #1. Ya they are nice and easy to drive that anyone can, but here is the major problem.
Look at your household computer, how long did it last before you got a new one because the old one decided its time was done. Electronics fail, get malfuntions, loose data, short out, get out dated, etc. Which tractor would last longer? the one with out the computer electronics of course.

In college I was able to demo a CIH 180 PUMA. Nice tractor, not my color preference but still nice to use. It only had 89 hours on it. My job was to manually set powershift. All I had to do was hook the labtop up, sit in the seat, put some director control in the back pannel, make sure parking break was set, turn the tractor on and set rpm to 1100, and here is the manual part of the process: press the button and select manual set which the mechanic just has to press a button between gears when the computer says to. automatic does it on its own. The problem is when it got to second reverse the tractor jumped back twice when it was not to have any movement of the wheels at all. It had a malfuntion.

The newest tractor I own is a 65 M670 Moline, the oldest is a 46 UT Moline. The newest one I will own later this month is a G1050 Moline. Great tractors I think with high torque engines compared to most other brands durring thier time. They are not the best of fuel these days but witht he right modifications they can be burning about the same or less than the ones these days. Every "new" one I get I go through it to make sure it runs like new.

Overall I trust the older ones with the power and long lasting parts rather than these new ones with parts made from all over the world and will be gone in 50-100 years.

Well, my H's are 1942 models, so they are 66 years old this year. I highly doubt the rearend has been apart on either one. Dad rebuilt his in the early 70's and it has had one valve grind since then (probably wasn't 100% necessary) and runs great with great oil pressure. My H has been rebuilt twice (dunno about the transmission, though). I'm sure it will still be running in another 50 years provided proper care and storage.

For what I use them (mowing and raking, odd jobs like running the auger or grinder) I don't know if a newer tractor could be justified. They run a 7' mower just fine at the same speed I would run it with a newer tractor. They run any PTO implement at 540 RPM within their horsepower capability. And they are plenty efficient as far as fuel use goes...

How much is a new 30 horsepower tractor? I have about $4000 in these Hs combined...

As for larger tractors, the 1086 is "older" and has some pretty bad electrical problems (digital readout hasn't worked in years, tach quit and doesn't record hours anymore). BUT, it is still simple enough that I can run an extra wire or two and it will start, run, charge the batteries, etc. And I added an electric hour meter to keep track of maintenance. What it really needs is a new wiring harness - don't know if they are available, don't want to know the price, and don't want to tackle installing it!

Have talked to some people with these electronic wonders - had a fuse go out and forward or reverse motion is impossible, just plain dead in the water. Hundreds of dollars later, fuse is discovered and replaced. What a pain!

My favorite tractor as far as reliable, easy to work on, and easily rebuildable would have to be a John Deere 4440 - all the modern convenience, but not so much electrical junk. I know they can be tough on fuel, though...

I'll keep my old Farmalls because that's what I can afford and they do all the work I need to do!

Cars were greased for 1.25 back then and brake adjustment was 1.00.A good mechanic looked over the exhaust system and brake lines. if a brake took too much adjusting a drum was pulled to check for excessive wear.Modern cars just fail on the road, no maintainance.

I recall as a kid how many vehicles on the road were backfiring, had mysterious misses, belched smoke, needed to be jumped to start. And were towed to garages. Flat or tires with slow leaks were common too. Boil overs were as common as old Faithful.
With the increased amount of vehicles on the road and the extra miles driven per person. There are very few vehicles on the hook except due to collisions.
The good old days were not so good.
What would it cost now to pay for new plugs,points and an oil change every 3000 miles at a garage. The garage bills per year would be thousands of dollars. Engine rebuilds at 50,000-75,000 miles too.
New vehicles today with the 60,000 or 100,000 warranty are not high priced maintenance headaches.
What I see here is terror of the unknown.

The newest piece of equipment I have is a 1996 Cub Cadet lawn mower. The oldest is a 1927 Farmall Regular. Included is an 8N, Farmall B, an H, and a Ford 5000, plus a JD 450 track loader. Except for the CC all my stuff was bought well used and cheap. I use them on a regular basis. I just do the minimum maintenance necessary to keep them working. So one burns a little oil, or the cylinder compression ain't up to new. As long as it does the work I ask it to, I will work it. When it no longer becomes economical to do minimum maintenance, I get rid of it and go find another piece of cheap piece of junk and run it the same way. Why do major repairs on a piece of equipment when I can sell it and buy a comparable equipment.

(quoted from post at 08:01:52 08/02/08) ...
New vehicles today with the 60,000 or 100,000 warranty are not high priced maintenance headaches.
What I see here is terror of the unknown.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily terror of the unknown - the problem is most of us cannot afford a new vehicle with the nice warranty that comes with it.

At best, I am able to purchase a vehicle that is around 4 years old with 50,000 miles or better on it. My 01 Accord was purchased in 04 with 54k on it and my 97 Caravan was purchased in 07 with 57k on it. I cannot afford a new car payment, and I cannot afford to have any work done to my vehicles in a shop at $75 per hour. I have learned to fix most everything myself - but some things on these new vehicles require thousands of dollars worth of computer diagnostic equipment, and therefore I won't be able to repair them myself.

Yes, new vehicles are more comfortable, more reliable, and last longer. But what happens when they are 10 to 15 years old and the wiring goes bad?

Yes, new vehicles are more comfortable, more reliable, and last longer. But what happens when they are 10 to 15 years old and the wiring goes bad?


A... You send them to the scrap yard the same as you always did. There aren't many vehicles on the road here that are over 15 years old. There never was in my lifetime (not that I'm that old). The older ones fell to pieces quicker than the current ones.
Your Honda would be a good case in point. There's lots of those cars here that get run to over 400K without major trouble. When they have trouble they go away... There wern't too many vehicles that were going over 100K here 40 years ago. Now we get that from a set of spark plugs.

Rod

So the moral of the story is, don't sit and park with a woman! hehe