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Emergency Power Generator

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Two Bit

02-13-2003 06:06:11

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I am thinking of getting a belt driven generator head (7200 watt) and rigging it up so my farmall H can power it with either the PTO or a V belt adapter off the belt pully. These generator heads are available from Harbor Freight or Northern for around $500. A generator with it's own engine would be $1500+. My thinking is why pay for another power source (engine)when the Farmall can supply the power to the generator head. Has anybody done this? The generator needs to run at 3600 RPM so V-belts and pulley ratios would have to be used (7:1 for PTO shaft or 3:1 for belt pulley shaft). The specs on the generator head say it requires a 20 HP motor. Main use would be to power our water well (1/2 HP 220 volt) and keep critical power to house for power failures (we live on a farm). The Farmall might run for a few hours at most (not continually for days) and I dont think this would hurt the tractor since it is about the same as doing a few hours of belt work.
Any ideas or comments and if this is practical would you use the PTO or the belt pulley shaft?

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JOHN@IL

02-16-2003 00:08:05

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Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Two Bit, 02-13-2003 06:06:11

When you build your trailer make sure to leave room to slide on your welder & strap it down.( even more use for your H )

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Tom

02-13-2003 18:19:37

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Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Two Bit, 02-13-2003 06:06:11

I have thought of doing this very thing. Note I haven't done it yet. My idea was to use the belt pully, maybe with the v belts just running on the flat belt pully. Two belts on center wouldn't run into tension problems fron the crown I don't think. I know you don't get as good traction on the flat pully as a v groove, but you have a lot of surface for traction. It is usually the small pullys that slips, this might just equal out the traction between the pullys. Then mount the generator in front of the radiator with the pully in line with the belt pully. I would figure on the 3 to one step up I think, no need to run the engine too hard for a fairly light load. And a 10 or 11" belt pully would workout to a 3 or 3 1/2 " generator pully, probably doable. Let us know how it works if you do it.

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Bob

02-13-2003 13:37:40

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Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Two Bit, 02-13-2003 06:06:11

Any of you guys seen an IH ELECTRALL? There used to be a picture on this site, but I didn't check that out just now. An ELECTRALL was an AC generator available as an attachement from IH that is the same setup as you propose, so obviously it will work!!!

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Gary The Rookie Farmer

02-13-2003 17:43:45

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Re: Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Bob, 02-13-2003 13:37:40

Here's your pictures:

Link

http://www.ytmag.com/contents/atp1402.htm

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Gary The Rookie Farmer

02-13-2003 17:45:43

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Re: Re: Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Gary The Rookie Farmer, 02-13-2003 17:43:45

Here's a better picture:
http://www.antiquetractors.com/content/yph268.htm

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02-13-2003 09:11:19

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Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Two Bit, 02-13-2003 06:06:11

Don't know where these two are coming from.

Horsepower is the combination of Force and Speed.
One formula is (Torque{ft lbs} X RPM)/5252.

What you are proposing to do is step up the SPEED which will step down the FORCE torque in this example. The horsepower will stay approximatly the same allowing for mechnical losses.

Another way to explain this is take a 30-60 Aultman Taylor and a 3020 John Deere. The Aultman is rated at 30 drawbar HP and the 3020 about 60 dbhp.

The 30-60 in my area will pull a 6 to 8 bottom plow very effectivly while the 3020 would have a hard time with a 4 bottom.

Why?
The Aultman is exerting A LOT (about twice) more force than the JD but is doing it about a fourth the speed.

All in all what you are proposing will work great. I have a 20 kw pto generator with a JD A. On the front of the Generator is a gearbox that steps up the Speed from 500 to 3600.

HTH
JT

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Bill Oakes

02-13-2003 09:08:11

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Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Two Bit, 02-13-2003 06:06:11

Hi Two-Bit,

I have a little different understanding of the physics involved.

Power equals force times speed. Force, when speaking of rotating loads is generally expressed as torque.

Your 3 to 1 ratio will mean you have 3 times the speed and 1/3 the torque, in the perfect world.

We live in a world, less than perfect, with things like friction and flow restrictions, which limit the efficiency of our machines to somewhat less than 100%.

In your case, you may have 20 hp in at 1200 rpm, and get 18 hp out at 3600 rpm. Only trying to express a principal, not trying to calculate you numbers for you.

If I am way off base someone will correct me.

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Errin OH

02-13-2003 08:13:27

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Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Two Bit, 02-13-2003 06:06:11

A couple things to think about, 20hp @3600 rpm is the requirement to run it at full power (7200w). As for your setup, ie. 7 to one or 3 to 1, the hp requirements will change. Because you are stepping up, with 7 to 1 you need something like 140hp PTO hp to produce 7200w (60hp at 3 to 1). Likewise I would figure 20hp stepped up 7-1 would only produce something like 1000w before the tractor stalls. 20hp/7=3hp at gen, (6hp @ 3-1 ratio) figuring (7200w/20hp=360w per hp) You would be looken at 1080w and 2100w respectively. I am sure these are not exact figures and it does not mean it won't work. But if you are want 7200w you need the hp to get it (ie.. PTO hp x step up or an gen that will work at lower rpms). Regulation is another story and as stated in previous post, could be a real problem if your gov is not up to snuff. A miller 225 welder fit my needs just right at 7500w. But it has its own 20 hp twine cyl engine and internal reg. Good luck.

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JMS/MN

02-13-2003 22:22:36

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Re: Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Errin OH, 02-13-2003 08:13:27

I remember Farmall advertising of the Electrall in the late 50s, showing it powering a baler with an electric motor. Obviously, it never caught on, so THAT point is moot. In regard to pto alternators, since about 1977 I've had a 25/45 kw alternator which is capable of starting at least a 10hp electric motor. 25kw is the normal operating load, 45kw is the starting max. With a D17 gas I can run it, but the tractor is not responsive enough to maintain an even flow of power at a steady voltage, full power. The 3020 diesel or larger tractors hardly notice when starting additional motors, and maintain an even level of voltage. The gas tractor was fine for winter outages overnight, keeping the house warm and dairy barn operating, but for milking (10hp vacuum pump, lights, fans, etc.) the 3020 was a better match. Milk cooling and feeding motor usage was staggered because total power could approach 35hp. I would caution purchase of a power unit from Harbor Freight- used 10-15kw pto alternators are cheap. NEVER use without the double-throw switch at the power pole. Our REA will disconnect any customer without that lineman protection. And belt drive would be a mickey-mouse creation.

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RAB

02-13-2003 09:32:04

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Re: Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Errin OH, 02-13-2003 08:13:27

Sorry Errin, but you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Please consider where the rest of the power would be going! 100HP is equivalent to 75 kW!
Regards, RAB

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john

02-13-2003 07:48:07

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Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Two Bit, 02-13-2003 06:06:11

I'm not quite sure if I'm right but I thought I should mention this. Let's assume that you take a 20 hp motor with for example 2000 rpm maximum speed (I don't know the specs for your Farmall) and you are using gears or whatever in order to get the final rpm to the required 3600. Will the power in the end of the 3600 rpm shaft be that same 20 hp? I don't think so. What you gain in speed, you lose it in power. So you would have to use more powerful motor than the 20 hp. Again I have no idea about your tractors hp so it might be powerful enough for your purposes. But you should consider this.

Also, as the other reply said, it's critical to keep the speed of the engine constant so the voltage remains steady and even more importantly, the frequency of the current is kept constant. There should be some sort of device that is connected to the throttle of the tractor and alters its position according to the power needed by the generator (or is it called alternator?).

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RAB

02-13-2003 09:26:51

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Re: Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to john, 02-13-2003 07:48:07

Meant to be a reply to the top post, but slipped a bit...
A few things to consider.
The pto output is designed for axial load and may not like too much radial load. The belt drive shaft is designed for radial load and may not take kindly if you were to drive an axial load (which I doubt you are contemplating).
On a resistive calculation about 13HP is sufficient to generate 7.2kw and if you are going to run your engine at, or near to, normal pto speed, then I would not think there would be a great deal of voltage/frequency variation using a normal tractor variable speed governor - you just need to set it at, say, minus 2to 3% at full load and check that at off-load it only gives 1 to 2% over target voltage/frequency and that your governor doesn't continually 'hunt'
The important addition may be a frequency counter to set it up. Many fairly cheap digital multimeters have this facility - but use a reduction transformer (12?volt output) if you intend using these.
Most gearbox or belt and pulley suppliers will be able to tell you how much either system will lose in transmitting the power to the generator.
Don't forget to install guards, circuit breakers, change-over switches (if there is ANY possibility you might connect it to the mains circuits)etc. - be safe.
The suppliers of tractor-driven generators may sell you a suitable system already built for three point hitch costing not much more than you will put into a good system.
Regards, RAB

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Red Dave

02-13-2003 07:06:43

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Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Two Bit, 02-13-2003 06:06:11

There are a lot of PTO driven generators out there, so I don't know any reason why it wouldn't work.
The only thing I would caution you about is maintaining frequency and voltage as close as possible to normal. Low or high volts or Hz will be hard on a lot of things such as motors and anything with electronics.

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Two Bit

02-13-2003 08:32:09

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Re: Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Red Dave, 02-13-2003 07:06:43

Red Dave,
I'm thinking that the governor on the tractor would increase the throttle when the generator loads it down. When I brush hog and hit heavy grass the governor compensates for the added load and the tractor/PTO rmp stays close to constant.I agree with the "elelctronic equipment problem" but I would mainly need this to power my well, refrigerator, and freezer but the well does bring up the "motor issue".

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Red Dave

02-13-2003 10:18:11

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Re: Re: Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Two Bit, 02-13-2003 08:32:09

The governor should do exacly what you said.
The well pump, refigerator and freezer all have motors. Motors don't like underfrequency or undervoltage conditions, either will tend to make them run hot.
Is your H governor good enough to hold frequency under varying loads? The only possible answer is -I don't know. It's 50+ years old and it could be real good or not so good, the only way to know is to try it and see.
Here at the plant, we control generator speed, which means frequency, to 1/100 of a hz. I doubt that you need that kind of accuracy to run your pump and compressors safely, but it ought to be within a couple of hz if you want to avoid trouble. The way I test portable generators is run them at rated freguency unloaded, load them to rated power and check it, then unload them and check it again. The closer it comes back to 60 hz each time, the better the governor is.
You would test the voltage regulator the same way except measure volts instead of hz and compare the results to rated voltage.
If you get a 240/120 volt generator, try to balance the load(s) across the windings as close as possible. The well pump is likely 240 so would be OK, but the fridge and freezer would likely be 120 and could unbalance you. I would unplug any unnecesary appliances, lights, clocks, computers, TV's etc. so if anything did happen, less would be damaged.
I think that what you want to do will work if you are careful.
Don't forget to disconnect everything from the incoming power line when you hook up your generator to the house. You can kill somebody if you don't. Local code may require a double throw-double pole disconnect on your incoming main.

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Two Bit

02-13-2003 11:43:18

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Red Dave, 02-13-2003 10:18:11

Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions. I think the tractor's governor is up to keeping the RPM's pretty constant. I understand about the axial and radial loads. I will probably build a small trailer to mount the generator head on and either get a gearbox speed increaser or build a pulley/pillow block set up with the right ratios. Either way I will probably couple to the tractor with a PTO driveshaft. I'm kinda excited about being able to use the old Farmall for different stuff and being able to save money buy not buying a generator already equipped with a engine. My 1940 Farmall H is a restored / working tractor. We are both happiest when it is being used and not sitting in the shed collecting dust.

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Bob M

02-13-2003 13:15:05

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Two Bit, 02-13-2003 11:43:18

Hey Two Bit - Your idea will work fine - I've seen it done. An H has plenty of power to run 7.5 KW generator - in fact it'll just loaf, even with the generator at full load. A couple of comments to add to the others:

1 - Highly recommend you get a frequency meter and permanently wire it to the generator. Or at least a digital voltmeter with a frequency function. Use it to set the engine RPM so the generator provides about 65 Hz at no load, and to insure it doesn't drop below about 55 Hz at max load. If your H governor is working properly it'll handle this easily. If it doesn't the governor will need work before you put your setup to use.

2 - If you decide to use a v-belt drive to step up PTO speed to 3,600 RPM, be sure the generator head can handle side load on the input shaft. Otherwise belt tension will result in very short life for the generator bearings.

3 - Install a transfer switch on your main between the meter and your main panel! Not only is it required by code, it also is just common sense. Without it you risk burning up your generator should the power come back on unexpectedly. More importantly it prevents your generator from backfeeding the utility's lines and protects their workers who may be working some distance off your property.

Good luck!

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Ben in KY

02-14-2003 10:28:31

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Emergency Power Generator in reply to Bob M, 02-13-2003 13:15:05

Yep was wondering if anyone would get around to the side pressure angle on the generator shaft. Not usre about your generator but most seem to be set up to bolt straight onto a motor output shaft. Their front shaft bearings are not engineered for the side pull of a belt drive, thus they will not last too long when used in this application. You can work around this limitation by using a bearing supported jack shaft, with the pulley on one end and a coupler on the other end connected to the generator input shaft. I have had to do this on hydraulic pumps that were designed for direct shaft drive.

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