- Thread starter rrman61
- Start date
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
The busses at the Grand Canyon run on CNG.
The engines sounded like diesel engines.
The bus driver said the engines were made by Cummins.
Please Fact check this.
Propane is made from NG. So it would be simpler to just use CNG.
Many thought Europe would be freezing because the Russian NG pipeline was blown up.
There are many shipping companies to ship CNG. I think I read that the USA is the biggest CNG producer. Some NG is from shale gas.
The engines sounded like diesel engines.
The bus driver said the engines were made by Cummins.
Please Fact check this.
Propane is made from NG. So it would be simpler to just use CNG.
Many thought Europe would be freezing because the Russian NG pipeline was blown up.
There are many shipping companies to ship CNG. I think I read that the USA is the biggest CNG producer. Some NG is from shale gas.
LNG is comprised of primarily methane. LPG is comprised of mostly Butane and propane, products of the refining process. LNG is lighter than air and will rapidly disperse, creates very little CO2 when burned. Propane heavier, and will collect in low spots. Propane creates more CO2 when burned, I believe it has more BTUs than LNG also. I do know that when using them to cook, the Natural gas needs a larger orfice to burn properly. I would guess similar, with minor modifications.
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
There isn't very much difference, what ever injectors are used the orifice is smaller for propane.
Commercial natural gas has an energy content of about 1000 Btu per cubic foot while vaporized propane has an energy content of about 2500 Btu per cubic foot. Both come from natural gas. During processing, the heavier (and higher Btu content) molecules are stripped out of the gas that comes from the gas wells and sold separately at higher prices. What remains (mostly methane) is sold as natural gas.
The decision of how much of the heavier molecules are removed from the gas stream is an economic one. The processors of the gas will make little effort to strip the heavier molecules from the gas unless they can make more profit by doing so.
The decision of how much of the heavier molecules are removed from the gas stream is an economic one. The processors of the gas will make little effort to strip the heavier molecules from the gas unless they can make more profit by doing so.
Pete in Holland MI
Member
Propane vehicles will most often get less mileage per gallon than gasoline. There's about 38% less BTUs per gallon, so ya have to burn more to to the same work.
Same situation for burning high ethanol fuels. Less BTU's per gallon than gasoline.
Same situation for burning high ethanol fuels. Less BTU's per gallon than gasoline.
Hdonly
Member
- Location
- Florida Panhandle
The biggest difference is propane is stored as a liquid and CNG is a gas at very high pressure. The CNG tanks have to be quite large and heavy and still hold less usable gas. The city I used to work at tried CNG. It was terrible with very little range and under powered.
At least 40 years ago my old utility had a compressed natural gas program for city buses. Must have eventually been successful as cng for city busses is pretty widespread now. Look for the raised roof on busses to hide tanks and cng label on back. We had mined limestone caverns for propane storage to create synthetic natural gas for winter peaking. Used compress air and vaporized propane blended to a 1000btu content and injected directly into gas main. Also had a crazy program to make liquified natural gas LNG and actually had a few cars with LNG tanks in the trunk. Dangerous cause the stuff had to be stored at liquified temps and constantly boiled off. Couldn't park inside or smoke. LNG is how nat. gas is now transported world wide in tankers. As a young gas engineer I worked on both programs. Pretty exciting stuff back in the day
johnofnewhaven
Well-known Member
George you said before CNG engines sound like diesel engines. Obviously you've never heard one run.
Check Break
Member
The sound he heard was the air compressor rattling away. The engine is very quiet.
Check Break
Member
CNG is just NG that's been run through a compressor and stored in a tank.
Check Break
Member
Starts at around $1.5M and goes up from there.
Check Break
Member
A lot has changed in the past ten years. It can still be a challenge driving cross country. The engines have improved substantially. Range is determined by tank capacity, but there's a balance between extra range and extra weight. Any more than a days worth of fuel onboard for a local delivery vehicle is a waste of payload.
The engine should be set up pretty close. Allowing for different energy density and such, but a gasoline, propane, or cng engine is going to be similar. The carburetor area is going to be the difference. Probably minor tuning on timing and such makes a more effective use of one or the other fuels.
Storing the fuels on board is the big difference. Gasoline is a liquid, propane needs (200# is it) pressure to turn into a liquid that stores much more energy per volume than at its normal gaseous state, and cng doesnt liquify at any practical pressures so its still a gas just compressed greatly (3000# or some such!) to get enough energy in a tank to be worthwhile.
Paul
Storing the fuels on board is the big difference. Gasoline is a liquid, propane needs (200# is it) pressure to turn into a liquid that stores much more energy per volume than at its normal gaseous state, and cng doesnt liquify at any practical pressures so its still a gas just compressed greatly (3000# or some such!) to get enough energy in a tank to be worthwhile.
Paul
When natural gas comes from a well it contains a large variety of different molecules. The highest percentage molecule
is methane. As I previously stated, it also contains smaller percentages of heavier molecules which have higher Btu values
and are normally stripped off to be sold separately. In addition, the gas from the well will also contain water vapor,
carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and various other molecules that have a zero Btu value and/or could cause damage to the gas
distribution system or customers' equipment. These are also stripped off as much as practical during processing.
Other folks have correctly stated that propane comes from natural gas. Most commercial nitrogen fertilizer is produced by
using hydrogen extracted from natural gas as a feedstock for producing ammonia.
CNG is an abbreviation for compressed natural gas, but the natural gas which is compressed is dry, commercial, consumer-
grade, pipeline-quality gas that has a Btu value which is generally slightly above 1000 Btu per cubic foot. The actual Btu
content of the gas delivered to customers will vary from about 970 to 1100 Btu per cubic foot.
Natural Gas
is methane. As I previously stated, it also contains smaller percentages of heavier molecules which have higher Btu values
and are normally stripped off to be sold separately. In addition, the gas from the well will also contain water vapor,
carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and various other molecules that have a zero Btu value and/or could cause damage to the gas
distribution system or customers' equipment. These are also stripped off as much as practical during processing.
Other folks have correctly stated that propane comes from natural gas. Most commercial nitrogen fertilizer is produced by
using hydrogen extracted from natural gas as a feedstock for producing ammonia.
CNG is an abbreviation for compressed natural gas, but the natural gas which is compressed is dry, commercial, consumer-
grade, pipeline-quality gas that has a Btu value which is generally slightly above 1000 Btu per cubic foot. The actual Btu
content of the gas delivered to customers will vary from about 970 to 1100 Btu per cubic foot.
Natural Gas
BarnyardEngineering
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rochester, NY
Compressed Natural Gas is Commercial Natrual Gas, compressed.
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