I am planning on using a farmall H and a new holland 273 to bale with, I know it is better to use a tractor with a live pto (which of course the farmall does not have). My question is what is the problem with using a non live pto? I have read that I think you have to be more careful about overloading the baler, why exactly is this and how do you do it? I have also read that the momentum of the baler can push the tractor forward but the baler should have an overrunning clutch that would prevent that.
- Thread starter bdoss2006
- Start date
Rich'sToys
Well-known Member
- Location
- Southern MN
The problem is if, for example, you hit a slug of heavy hay and you need to stop for a minute to let the baler catch up. With live PTO this is not a problem. With your H it can be done, but you need to stop, quickly shift to neutral, and let the clutch back out before the baler stops turning. Not impossible, but you need to be quick. With a little practice you can get the hang of it. I'm sure lots of hay has been baled without live PTO over the years, but it's nicer to have it.
This post was edited by Rich'sToys on 10/17/2022 at 08:51 pm.
This post was edited by Rich'sToys on 10/17/2022 at 08:51 pm.
used red MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coon Rapids, MN
And to add to what Rich has said you need to ..learn to
look ahead.. as my Dad and Grandpa used to tell me.
Richs scenario lays out stopping for the big slug of
hay. When in fact if you anticipate the problem as you
are rolling up to it you can clutch quick and pop it in
neutral before the baler is already heavily loaded and
when you interrupt power to the machine under a
heavier load it is just a lot more jerky on the drivetrain.
Of course if you are in hilly terrain then that dictates
more of what you can do. It it also advantageous to
have a working belly pump for this for the purpose of
used it as a clutch brake. When the rear ended oil is all
warmed up there is not a lot of resistance for the PTO
to stop even though there is an overrunning clutch. So
when you put it in neutral with the PTO engaged you
will have to stop the PTO drive train in order to get it
the transmission back in gear. You will want the output
ports of the belly pump capped off or hoses with
couplers on them. When you pull the belly pump lever
back it builds pressure against the blocked ports. This
quickly stop the PTO from turning so the trans can be
put back in gear. If you would not have this you would
either wait a long time for it to stop or most times it
gets ground into gear. I always use the belly pump to
stop the clutch and limit gear grinding when I am using
an old Farmall with one that works. Even if you have a
loader on the tractor operating the belly pump you can
do the same thing.
look ahead.. as my Dad and Grandpa used to tell me.
Richs scenario lays out stopping for the big slug of
hay. When in fact if you anticipate the problem as you
are rolling up to it you can clutch quick and pop it in
neutral before the baler is already heavily loaded and
when you interrupt power to the machine under a
heavier load it is just a lot more jerky on the drivetrain.
Of course if you are in hilly terrain then that dictates
more of what you can do. It it also advantageous to
have a working belly pump for this for the purpose of
used it as a clutch brake. When the rear ended oil is all
warmed up there is not a lot of resistance for the PTO
to stop even though there is an overrunning clutch. So
when you put it in neutral with the PTO engaged you
will have to stop the PTO drive train in order to get it
the transmission back in gear. You will want the output
ports of the belly pump capped off or hoses with
couplers on them. When you pull the belly pump lever
back it builds pressure against the blocked ports. This
quickly stop the PTO from turning so the trans can be
put back in gear. If you would not have this you would
either wait a long time for it to stop or most times it
gets ground into gear. I always use the belly pump to
stop the clutch and limit gear grinding when I am using
an old Farmall with one that works. Even if you have a
loader on the tractor operating the belly pump you can
do the same thing.
Tony in SD
Well-known Member
As others have said, baling has and can be done without live PTO. But in the days before live PTO it was just business as usual. There was no other way to do bale short of the baler having its own
motor. Now that you know there is such a thing as live PTO, it wont take you long to want to upgrade your baling tractor. As a kid on our farm, I cut hay, baled, operated F10 Farmhand loader
operated by a PTO pump, etc., all without live PTO. After a while you get pretty good at shifting very fast. Now all those tasks and more are done with not only live PTO but I also use a hydro
transmission so I have infinite speed control. IMHO that is the ultimate setup for baling.
motor. Now that you know there is such a thing as live PTO, it wont take you long to want to upgrade your baling tractor. As a kid on our farm, I cut hay, baled, operated F10 Farmhand loader
operated by a PTO pump, etc., all without live PTO. After a while you get pretty good at shifting very fast. Now all those tasks and more are done with not only live PTO but I also use a hydro
transmission so I have infinite speed control. IMHO that is the ultimate setup for baling.
You need to be much better at raking the hay to keep a uniform windrow or hay that does not get thick and thin. But
hay just is thick and thin patches, so you will run into the thicker wads of hay and you cant easily change travel
speeds of the tractor because any time you push in the clutch you also stop power to the baler. As Rich says, you
need to anticipate a heavy batch of hay coming up and shift quickly while there is still light hay feeding into the baler,
so the momentum keeps the baler running. Millions of bales have been bales without live pto; but it takes more skill
and thought to do so.
I own an H and a 300. Almost the same tractor, I have baled with both. The 300 is soooooo much nicer with the live
pto and the hi lo to shift a gear on the go. I only use the H if I have no other choice.
As to the rocking, a baler has the plunger ramming back and forth, that is a fair bit of weight rocking back and forth,
it will move a light tractor quite a bit. Your H is a an older, all metal tractor so will be ok with this. If you get into a
more modern compact type of tractor of the same hp, the tractor would be even lighter and it can feel like the tail
wagging the dog.
Paul
hay just is thick and thin patches, so you will run into the thicker wads of hay and you cant easily change travel
speeds of the tractor because any time you push in the clutch you also stop power to the baler. As Rich says, you
need to anticipate a heavy batch of hay coming up and shift quickly while there is still light hay feeding into the baler,
so the momentum keeps the baler running. Millions of bales have been bales without live pto; but it takes more skill
and thought to do so.
I own an H and a 300. Almost the same tractor, I have baled with both. The 300 is soooooo much nicer with the live
pto and the hi lo to shift a gear on the go. I only use the H if I have no other choice.
As to the rocking, a baler has the plunger ramming back and forth, that is a fair bit of weight rocking back and forth,
it will move a light tractor quite a bit. Your H is a an older, all metal tractor so will be ok with this. If you get into a
more modern compact type of tractor of the same hp, the tractor would be even lighter and it can feel like the tail
wagging the dog.
Paul
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
Look for an old Allis Chalmers WD to bale with,usually find one for $500-$1000 good tractor on a square baler
gene bender
Well-known Member
just dont make the windrows big we baled thousands of bales without live power
learn how to hit the clutch and slip the tranny into neutral quick
learn how to hit the clutch and slip the tranny into neutral quick
My sons learned to bale using a Farmall M which doesn't have a live PTO. I had my 300U which does have a live PTO on the baler one time and they didn't like it - wanted to go back to the M. Only time I've
ever had problems with a non live PTO was when the windrow was too big for the baler.
ever had problems with a non live PTO was when the windrow was too big for the baler.
Mike(NEOhio)
Well-known Member
- Location
- Newbury, Ohio
We baled for several years with a late JD A with the wife driving. I stopped using the E3 bc it was just worn out and lacked power. The A had plenty
for the slopes but mainly she would not go higher than first gear. This is the same argument as you can't use a rotary mower without live or
overrunning clutch. Live is nice but not mandatory.
for the slopes but mainly she would not go higher than first gear. This is the same argument as you can't use a rotary mower without live or
overrunning clutch. Live is nice but not mandatory.
BarnyardEngineering
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rochester, NY
The first time you plug the baler, you'll instantly know the answers to most of your questions.
Thing is, you'll probably plug the baler a few times learning how to use it regardless of what tractor you have.
When you push the clutch, the tractor stops applying power to the baler. The flywheel will keep the baler going as long as you don't have too much hay going in, but if you're pushing the clutch to stop because too much hay is going in, the baler will instantly plug.
My grandfather was reputed to run the baler with his left foot propped up on the gearshift of his Farmall H. When he needed to stop to let the baler catch up, he would pop the tractor out of gear with his foot.
You can learn to compensate for a lack of power and live PTO with a little experience. Don't worry about it.
560Dennis
Well-known Member
- Location
- Madison,Ohio
Baling is a learning experience ,I ve used a Farmall C pto combine .no baler work .
Your H will do pto baling. How well depends on thing like moisture,volume of hay in wind row ,and ground speed compared to engine rpm.
And most of all your skill as an operation setting up and prep in field. Mostly you.
Your H will do pto baling. How well depends on thing like moisture,volume of hay in wind row ,and ground speed compared to engine rpm.
And most of all your skill as an operation setting up and prep in field. Mostly you.
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
Dad baled with a Case DC3 with no live pto.
I remember him cussing a few times which he
didn't often do.
If he was still around to ask he would say
it sure beat putting up loose hay with
pitchforks like we did the year before.
I remember him cussing a few times which he
didn't often do.
If he was still around to ask he would say
it sure beat putting up loose hay with
pitchforks like we did the year before.
Jim in NC
Well-known Member
Many good recommendations in the comments below. I have made many bales with an H and a 270 NH or
an IH 445 baler. I mostly went in first gear, made windrows not very heavy, and learned to take the
tractor out of gear quickly and release clutch to prevent baler from stopping. I always liked
baling from the seat of an H because one could see the ground ahead of the baler, windrow, and the
baler well.
an IH 445 baler. I mostly went in first gear, made windrows not very heavy, and learned to take the
tractor out of gear quickly and release clutch to prevent baler from stopping. I always liked
baling from the seat of an H because one could see the ground ahead of the baler, windrow, and the
baler well.
I have run a pto baler with a non-live pto tractor before when the usual baling tractor was broke down. As mentioned consistent
windrows will help and you will get good s t pulling tractor out of gear quickly when needed to keep power to the baler and stop
forward motion. If you have real heavy hay using a tedder can help with drying and spread out clumps so you can rake a nice
consistent windrow.If you are going to bale any amount of hay I would imagine you will upgrade your baling tractor to one with live
pto eventually, but using what you have can work and did work years ago when square balers first became popular , although amny
balers were engine driven back then.
windrows will help and you will get good s t pulling tractor out of gear quickly when needed to keep power to the baler and stop
forward motion. If you have real heavy hay using a tedder can help with drying and spread out clumps so you can rake a nice
consistent windrow.If you are going to bale any amount of hay I would imagine you will upgrade your baling tractor to one with live
pto eventually, but using what you have can work and did work years ago when square balers first became popular , although amny
balers were engine driven back then.
Bruce from Can.
Well-known Member
- Location
- Woodville, Ontario, Canada
I remember IH ran advertising featuring the IH Electrol
baler. Basically IH mounted a generator where the belt
pulley would be on the tractor, and the baler had a
electric motor mounted on the flywheel to power the
baler. I believe this was a attempt to get around the
lack of independent pto. The advertising also
mentioned the fact that your IH tractor could become a
very valuable asset to your farming operation, by
providing back up electricity during times of power
outages. And the ad featured pictures of both the
tractor baling hay, as well as powering lights and
milking equipment in the barn during a storm.
baler. Basically IH mounted a generator where the belt
pulley would be on the tractor, and the baler had a
electric motor mounted on the flywheel to power the
baler. I believe this was a attempt to get around the
lack of independent pto. The advertising also
mentioned the fact that your IH tractor could become a
very valuable asset to your farming operation, by
providing back up electricity during times of power
outages. And the ad featured pictures of both the
tractor baling hay, as well as powering lights and
milking equipment in the barn during a storm.
teddy52food
Well-known Member
My dad & I baled a lot of bales with a Farmall B. We had hilly land. Sometimes we
would roll up big windrows and bale it going downhill with the tranny in nuetral.
would roll up big windrows and bale it going downhill with the tranny in nuetral.
Did that in HS/College with a VAC and an NH268. You need to clear the bale chamber before stopping. Pump the clutch and put it in neutral, let it run for several seconds,
then stop and do what you need to do. That way when you start again you don't have the load of hay in the bale chamber.
then stop and do what you need to do. That way when you start again you don't have the load of hay in the bale chamber.
In light hay its not that big of deal. Its in heavy hay that it can get really bad. I have brome that is usually thick enough that with windrows are less than 6 feet apart and still heavvy enough to clog a
baler even when baling in first gear. I baled for years with an IH 47 baler and a Farmall 350 and even with it in low ta and 1st gear the baler still couldn't keep up. Having to clutch and let the baler
catch up was huge benefit in having an independent PTO. Got a lot better when I started using a D17 with a slower 1st gear.
Thin hay its not that big of deal unless you are in tight quarters and the baler flywheel pushes you into a fence.
baler even when baling in first gear. I baled for years with an IH 47 baler and a Farmall 350 and even with it in low ta and 1st gear the baler still couldn't keep up. Having to clutch and let the baler
catch up was huge benefit in having an independent PTO. Got a lot better when I started using a D17 with a slower 1st gear.
Thin hay its not that big of deal unless you are in tight quarters and the baler flywheel pushes you into a fence.
I baled with a late 1949 John deere B with a IHC 46 baler with a thrower and no problems, Alfall, Red Clover Timothy Orchard Grass mixtures with no problems in 2nd gear. Had a 41 Farmal H but it stayed hooked to the case 555 9 foot mower conditioner. This made a 9 foot swath of hay in winrow. This ended in 1980 when the cows left Did not have any tractors with a live PTO. Combined with a AC 60 on PTO many an acre with that JD B. Later got a 65 Ford 4000 ( 4100) the version with 39 inch rear wheels. Independany PTO. tried it on combine. whent back to the JD B.
Still bale with H or Ms every year. Your 273 does not take much power so you are fine there. If you are able start out with smaller wind rows
until you get a feel for it. Right after the plunger makes its stroke into the chamber it will release all pressure on the drivetrain of the tractor
and the baler. Once you get a feel for that you can quickly clutch and shift the transmission to neutral during that slack time and then let the
clutch back out quickly putting minimal stress on drivetrain. You can also time the shifting of the gears such to change speed on the go this
way. Remember to let the baler run to get the chamber cleaned out on your corners or ends as that will make starting the baler much easier
on the tractor and you will eat fewer shear bolts. Pto will disengage easy if there is no load on the baler and I find it easier to re-engage
once the tractor is in gear, while moving line up on your windrow, clutch and as soon as the tractor stops pull up to engage pto and away you
go, similar to the post about using belly pump below, that will be a time when all gears have stopped moving. You will get a feel for it quickly
and then it will be easy.
until you get a feel for it. Right after the plunger makes its stroke into the chamber it will release all pressure on the drivetrain of the tractor
and the baler. Once you get a feel for that you can quickly clutch and shift the transmission to neutral during that slack time and then let the
clutch back out quickly putting minimal stress on drivetrain. You can also time the shifting of the gears such to change speed on the go this
way. Remember to let the baler run to get the chamber cleaned out on your corners or ends as that will make starting the baler much easier
on the tractor and you will eat fewer shear bolts. Pto will disengage easy if there is no load on the baler and I find it easier to re-engage
once the tractor is in gear, while moving line up on your windrow, clutch and as soon as the tractor stops pull up to engage pto and away you
go, similar to the post about using belly pump below, that will be a time when all gears have stopped moving. You will get a feel for it quickly
and then it will be easy.
Second part of your question was about the overrunning clutch, before you start baling have the tractor in gear and pto engaged push in
clutch and tractor brakes. You will see the tractor and pto shaft stop turning but the baler flywheel will keep turning until it loses momentum
if overrunning clutch is working correctly. Good luck Mike
clutch and tractor brakes. You will see the tractor and pto shaft stop turning but the baler flywheel will keep turning until it loses momentum
if overrunning clutch is working correctly. Good luck Mike
flying belgian
Well-known Member
I baled a lot with H and 24t JD. Light
consistant windrows, no problem. Heavy
bunchy windows and you will hate it real
fast.
consistant windrows, no problem. Heavy
bunchy windows and you will hate it real
fast.
rusty6
Well-known Member
- Location
- East central Sask.
I guess I was spoiled starting out baling with Cockshutts and their live pto. I can only imagine the inconvenience of trying to bale heavy swaths without lpto.
It was bad enough when I tried using the Massey and it's two stage clutch. When you stepped on the clutch half way would stop forward motion. Pushing the clutch
all the way would also stop the pto. Took a while to get used to that and I soon went back to Cockshutt and their reliable and simple lpto. Plugged balers and
broken shear pins convinced me.
It was bad enough when I tried using the Massey and it's two stage clutch. When you stepped on the clutch half way would stop forward motion. Pushing the clutch
all the way would also stop the pto. Took a while to get used to that and I soon went back to Cockshutt and their reliable and simple lpto. Plugged balers and
broken shear pins convinced me.
used red MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coon Rapids, MN
Bruce, sorry the Electrall units were introduced in 1955 on the x00 series such as the 300, 400. Those series already offered live PTOs. Not saying that it was not a ..hair brained.. idea.
Destroked 450
Well-known Member
- Location
- Harned, Ky
We used a Ford 850 with no live pto to pull NH 268 and Massey 12 balers for many years
Looking ahead and being prepared to knock the transmission into neutral before feeding a big slug into the baler key, also waiting until all hay had feed thru before clutching to got back into gear was important
Having the rake operator bale a few rounds of messy windows made better rakers out of them
Yep, never heard of using the belly pump as a clutch or transmission brake. But then all but TWO of Dad's
tractors had live hyd pumps, or NO hyd pumps.
Dad bought a '47 H and 50T baler when he got out the Army, did custom baling, a L-O-T of custom baling.
With the Cub or Continental engine on the baler changes in widrow size were no problem.
Neighbor we traded help with had a 55-T IH baler, and he put either his WD-45 or D-17, then eventually his
D-19 on that baler. And I started driving the baler around 10-11 years old, I'd rake windows that would
require me to Really slow down, maybe even stop, the old 55-T just kept chugging along. Finally he bought a
pto driven IH #37 baler, not sure how I knew, maybe Dad told me, last year Dad farmed, I mowed 20 acres of
alfalfa with the 6 ft Bush-hog, let it dry, went and hooked up to our 7 ft David Bradley rake, greased it, I
could just rake two 6 ft swaths of the mower into a windrow, then turn and rake 1 or 2 more mower swaths into
that windrow, which was about HALF the size of my usual windrow. With the 55T baler I didn't drive much, with
this #37 I most have had 40-45 windows, about twice what I'd rake in 20 acres, but the Super H pulling that
baler, NO live PTO, I ran along about 1400-1500 rpm in 2nd gear, had a L-O-T more but tinyer bales than
before, and never even came close to plugging the baler. Yep, baler problems of plugging start with the hay
rake. Oh, when I raked oat straw, I pulled TWO 7 ft rakes and raked a full round into a single windrow, Dad
always ran the combine just under the oat heads, maybe a couple inches lower, not much straw.
tractors had live hyd pumps, or NO hyd pumps.
Dad bought a '47 H and 50T baler when he got out the Army, did custom baling, a L-O-T of custom baling.
With the Cub or Continental engine on the baler changes in widrow size were no problem.
Neighbor we traded help with had a 55-T IH baler, and he put either his WD-45 or D-17, then eventually his
D-19 on that baler. And I started driving the baler around 10-11 years old, I'd rake windows that would
require me to Really slow down, maybe even stop, the old 55-T just kept chugging along. Finally he bought a
pto driven IH #37 baler, not sure how I knew, maybe Dad told me, last year Dad farmed, I mowed 20 acres of
alfalfa with the 6 ft Bush-hog, let it dry, went and hooked up to our 7 ft David Bradley rake, greased it, I
could just rake two 6 ft swaths of the mower into a windrow, then turn and rake 1 or 2 more mower swaths into
that windrow, which was about HALF the size of my usual windrow. With the 55T baler I didn't drive much, with
this #37 I most have had 40-45 windows, about twice what I'd rake in 20 acres, but the Super H pulling that
baler, NO live PTO, I ran along about 1400-1500 rpm in 2nd gear, had a L-O-T more but tinyer bales than
before, and never even came close to plugging the baler. Yep, baler problems of plugging start with the hay
rake. Oh, when I raked oat straw, I pulled TWO 7 ft rakes and raked a full round into a single windrow, Dad
always ran the combine just under the oat heads, maybe a couple inches lower, not much straw.
J.Wondergem
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rockford, Mi.
My father inlaw used his 1950 Farmall H on his 46 IH baler for years.
BarnyardEngineering
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rochester, NY
It was demonstrated on a Farmall 400, which had live PTO.
The generator drove off the belt pulley drive, which was NOT live.
So it actually solved nothing, made the system more complicated and expensive, and limited the amount of power you could put to the baler to like 10KW, which was a whopping 13-1/2HP.
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