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Question for the EEs

A

AZglide

Member
Im a bit confused on this one. My submerged well pump stopped working so I pulled it and found that one wire had worn completely through just above the pump. Pretty common problem with the torquing going on down there. It appears that apparently the pump didnt stop working until the last strand of the wire wore through. My question is why didnt the breaker trip when the insulation was worn through as it was under water? Its been in the well for fourteen years so the conductor must have been exposed for a pretty good while.
 
> Im sorry folks I meant to post this on Tales. Guess I wasnt paying attention to where I was.

Actually, this is as good a place as any to post this topic. Stuff on Tractor Tales isn't archived and isn't indexed by search engines, so anything 'how to' in nature really shouldn't be on Tractor Tales.
 
Contrary to popular belief, water isn't that great of a conductor. In fact, distilled water won't conduct! Also, the ability of the circuit breaker to fault is dependent on having a good ground path. If the well case isn't bonded to the house ground somehow, there might not have been a good enough ground path to trip the breaker.
 
If the neutral wire (as connected) was the wear point, it would not see a short unless it was ground fault protected breaker. No need for GFI on submersible water pumps. Jim
 
> If the neutral wire (as connected) was the wear point, it would not see a short unless it was ground fault protected breaker. No need for GFI on submersible water pumps.

Of the few submersibles I've looked at, none had a neutral going to the pump.
 
Thanks everyone for the responses. I was just a bit concerned that I may become the fuse standing in the shower someday.
 
I had a similar thing happen to the first pump I ever installed, but the wire was broken inside the insulation. it had been in the well 7 years and all of a sudden it failed. It was ironic, I was working out of town and had only been home on my days off a few hours when it failed. My wife and I pulled it by hand, it was down 130 feet, on flexible plastic. I found the broken wire, fixed it, taped everything better and put it back down. It ran fine for the few more years we lived there, we sold the house and moved.
 
If two wire 120v ac one wire of the two is connected to the neutral bond screws (and bonded to the ground strip as well). The other wire is connected through the circuit breaker. As such, the wire not connected to the breaker is neutral. If 3 wires 120 there is still a neutral not connected to a breaker, plus a green ground.. Jim
 
I was with Bell and AT&T for thirty years and have been hit by 240 a few times, 120 many times but nothing rings your bells like 30 hertz ring voltage. Just seems to rattle you like nothing else can.
 
Mine did that only a bit higher up the pipe. I just got one of those watertight joints and soldered the wires together then put a piece of stainless over the wires in that spot. That was about 20 years ago. The stainless was about a foot long to cover the wear spot and taped in place. I think we may have taken one of the screws out of the pump case to hold the one end. Only 2 Wires and IF I remember right it's on 220 V. Pretty common here for that on well pumps.
 
My brother had something similar. Try to make it short. He called me and said he was getting a shock every time he touched the plumbing in his basement (wash sink). I tested and had 70 volts from faucet to floor. What happened was he had a two wire pump, one wire had rubbed through and was contacting the casing. When installed they never attached a ground to the casing. Therefore the wire was grounding through the casing and earth to the panel on the opposite side of the house and not tripping the breaker. There was 120 volts from the earth to the casing. My nephew was young at the time and very well could have been playing outside and been in contact with that casing.
 
> If two wire 120v ac one wire of the two is connected to the neutral bond screws (and bonded to the ground strip as well). The other wire is connected through the circuit breaker. As such, the wire not connected to the breaker is neutral. If 3 wires 120 there is still a neutral not connected to a breaker, plus a green ground.. Jim

I assumed we were talking about 240 volt pumps. I suppose 120V submersible pumps must exist, but I've never run into one.
 
> Some how getting shocked while on a wet floor with wet work boots hurts a whole lot more.

It only takes a few milliamps of current to feel a electrical shock. To trip a 15 amp breaker, it takes, uh, 15 amps.
 
Chances are you have plastic pipe and not steel pipes in the ground like they had in the 40's.

I was told in Plainfield,In building code requires all water pipes from city water to a house must be copper, no plastic.

My son's house is 100% copper. All plumbing is naturally grounded.

I like plastic plumbing.
 
Good morning AZ, sorry I got here late, I am an EE you asked for, but long retired and rusty since I last practiced Power Distribution Engineering SO NO WARRANTY: Regardless I will try and explain the situation. Electrical or Legal questions always draw the most responses, lay as well as professional, and are very interesting. There are indeed a few EE's and Electrician gentleman on here, see what they have to say do NOT take my word alone for any of this.......

In the event the pump is a 240 Volt and there are THREE wires ?? its my best educated guess not being there:

One is hot L1,,,,,,One is hot L2, with 240 Volt from L1 to L2,,,,,,,,One is the Equipment GroundING Conductor,,,,,,,THERE IS NOOOOOOOOOOOOO NEUTRAL. It would be fed with a TWO POLE CIRCUIT BREAKER... While its possible to use a 120 Volt pump and if it had three wires, one would be Hot, one Neutral, one Ground and it would be fed with a SINGLE POLE BREAKER, BUT I DONT KNOW WHAT PUMP YOU HAVE !!!!!!!

YOUR QUESTION: My question is why didn't the breaker trip when the insulation was worn through as it was under water? Its been in the well for fourteen years so the conductor must have been exposed for a pretty good while.

MY ANSWER:

1) The breaker wouldn't trip UNLESS the circuit drew excess amperage and if there was a bad/loose/burned/partial/resistive connection in that series circuit THERES NO EXCESS CURRENT FLOW TO TRIP THE BREAKER. In fact, if that frayed wire burned completely open THERE WOULD BE LIKE NOOOOOOOO OR LOW (what little water conducted) CURRENT FLOW AND THE PUMP NOT WORK. That bad connection if bad/resistive or open, would NOT by that alone cause the breaker to trip.

2) WHAT COULD CAUSE THE BREAKER TO TRIP: In the event a hot wire L1 or L2 were to short to the case frame PLUS the case frame was bonded to the Equipment GroundING Conductor TRIP !!!!!!!! If the case frame was NOT bonded to the Equipment GroundING Conductor a short L1 or L2 to the case WOULD NOT TRIP THE BREAKER... An L1 to L2 short would trip the breaker.........

3) The fact theres an open conductor under water DOES NOT MEAN enough current would flow through the water alone to trip a breaker BECAUSE WATER IS NOT A GOOD CONDUCTOR, ITS QUITE RESISITVE SUBJECT TO MINERAL CONTENT...

There ya go, this help you understand and answer your question ??? If not post back any questions

Best wishes to everyone here, have a good day yall

John T Retired n rusty EE but believe this remains true
 
Water is a bad conductor and may not carry current John Ts posts say it all on these electrical questions. Total explanations .thanks John T!
 
(quoted from post at 10:50:03 10/13/22) Thanks DR maybe I will see you this winter??

John T
Click to expand...
ater not a great conductor as has been said. I found a 240 milliamp leakage in 100 yards of direct buried line in a wet spot a couple months ago. Enough to shock one but not enough to trip a breaker. Splice insulating potting had gone bad after only 20 years! Imagine that.
 
When I had a new well put in in 2006 I was offered either a 120v or 240v pump. Both submersible, I opted for the 240.
 
Yes, plastic from well to tank in basement. Municipal services are usually copper. Have done a few myself.
 
(quoted from post at 18:50:19 10/12/22) Im a bit confused on this one. My submerged well pump stopped working so I pulled it and found that one wire had worn completely through just above the pump. Pretty common problem with the torquing going on down there. It appears that apparently the pump didnt stop working until the last strand of the wire wore through. My question is why didnt the breaker trip when the insulation was worn through as it was under water? Its been in the well for fourteen years so the conductor must have been exposed for a pretty good while.
Click to expand...

120V or 240V pump ?
 
mvphoto98413.jpg
 


The metal well casing, buried in the wet earth was energized 70V above earth potential ???
Drilled deep well casings are usually considered to be one of the very best possible connections to "earth/ground" .
 
> The metal well casing, buried in the wet earth was energized 70V above earth potential ??? Drilled deep well casings are usually considered to be one of the very best possible connections to earth/ground .

I don't think it was ever stated that the well casing is steel.
 
> Your point?

My point is that even though water can conduct electricity good enough to send you to the morgue, it might not conduct well enough to trip the circuit breaker on a typical submersible pump. Which you may recall is the subject of this thread.
 
Thank you John. Your educated guesses are all correct. L1, L2 and a equipment ground.
Still working on getting it back together but taking a few precautions this time.
 
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