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Hydraulic cylinder or tractor pump?

J

jbokelm

New User
Hey - I have a question related to the hydraulic cylinder on my John Deere 12' disc and my 1959 Farmall 460.
Last spring I was working a field and when I went to raise the disc it only partially went up. Low pressure I assumed maybe due to low hitran fluid. Anyway I checked it in the tractor and did not seem to low, but I filled it anyway to max it out. Regardless same outcome.
Then I proceeded to check the hoses. They always seemed to leak somewhat so I replaced both the output and intake hoses hoping that was the cause. Well same outcome.
To make sure it wasnt the cylinder (or atleast from my limited knowledge) I hooked up the hoses vice versus and the result was that now the disc would not go completely down. Same outcome but opposite direction. Now when I say it does not go completely up or down its more like as soon as there is some increased weight the cylinder stops.
My question is this. Would it be the cylinder that maybe bad (only two years old) or is it the pump on the tractor. Obviously one is more expensive than the other. I was hoping someone from this site can give me some better insight on what the possible causes are. I got about 13 acres to plant this spring at my hunting land.
Any guidance would be appreciated! Thanks.
 
A lot a problems like you are describing are caused by worn or mismatched hydraulic quick couplers. Swap the male tips on the hydraulic hoes to the disk to see if problem follows the tip.
 

Steve - Just so I understand you. Both the hoses and female connections from the tractor have been replaced. Now the two hoses/male connections from the cylinder are no more than two years old.
I have tested both those hoses (from cylinder) by just hooking them up to the output/input hoses on the tractor.
For example: When I hook them up one way the cylinder will not go all the way down. Then if I hook them up the opposite way then the cylinder will not go all the way up. Does that make sense? Do you still think its bad male quick connections?
Again appreciate your feed back!
 

Jim - Just so I understand you. Both the hoses and female connections from the tractor have been replaced. Now the two hoses/male connections from the cylinder are no more than two years old.
I have tested both those hoses (from cylinder) by just hooking them up to the output/input hoses on the tractor.
For example: When I hook them up one way the cylinder will not go all the way down. Then if I hook them up the opposite way then the cylinder will not go all the way up. Does that make sense? Do you still think its bad male quick connections?
Again appreciate your feed back!
 
If the cylinder will go all the way up when connected one way, it's NOT the pump. The pump only provides pressure.

It's also NOT the amount of hydraulic fluid in the reservoir. It takes the most amount of fluid to extend the cylinder and it all comes from the same place. When the cylinder will go all the way up connected one way, it's got plenty of fluid.
 
Do you have access to another implement you can hook the tractor to to check if it works?

Do you have a gauge with a male coupler you can plug in to the remotes to check pressure?

Does the tractor have one or two sets of remotes on it?

If so are the hoses hooked up to each circuit properly.

If you unhooked the cylinder you could fully extend it then loosen the line at the rod end of the cylinder followed by moving your control lever in the direction to extend the cylinder.
If fluid sprays out of the fitting then the gland seal in the cylinder is letting fluid past it and is in need of servicing.

Not as common but I have seen it more than a few times where the fastener holding the gland to the rod backs off or fails, when this happens you will have the symptoms you have described.

Sometimes it takes nothing more than reinstalling a nut or bolt.
 
Yes, something is restricting the out flow from the cylinder.

Most likely to be a coupler, either mis matched, or not coupling up completely because it's under pressure.
 
Take the cylinder off the disk and lay it on the ground and then see if it operates. This will tell id something is binding up on the disk. If it operates then it is not the cylinder or hoses. Did you replace the couplers as well as rge hoses or just the hoses? If replaced couplers do you still have the old ones to compair to? Some couplers look the same but are not and will not work.
 
Does cylinder take/use more fluid than
what the tractor reservoir holds in
capacity?? Tractor reservoir will be
full when down, but if fluid level is
re-checked at the point when cylinder
can't be raised NO FURTHER, fluid
level will be empty. If so, cylinder
is to big and not intended for use
with that tractor.

After all that horsing around, do you
have air in the system??
Hoses/cylinder? Tractor will operate
cylinder untill things are under
pressure, then it will just compress
the air in the system, instead of
making cylinder operate any further.

Are both hoses getting hooked up
correctly?? All the way on, and ends
open on the male end of the connectors
when coupled?? One OK and right, the
other not, will give you the effect of
only hooking up one hose. Cylinder
will operate with very minimal travel
(maybe only an inch or two), and won't
travel any further.

You aren't by chance using the wrong
hose connectors?? 2 or 3 different
kinds. You can't use 1 kind for the
female ends, and be using a different
kind for the male ends.
 
(quoted from post at 07:52:44 03/28/22) Do you have access to another implement you can hook the tractor to to check if it works?
Do you have a gauge with a male coupler you can plug in to the remotes to check pressure?
Does the tractor have one or two sets of remotes on it?
If so are the hoses hooked up to each circuit properly.
If you unhooked the cylinder you could fully extend it then loosen the line at the rod end of the cylinder followed by moving your control lever in the direction to extend the cylinder.
If fluid sprays out of the fitting then the gland seal in the cylinder is letting fluid past it and is in need of servicing.
Not as common but I have seen it more than a few times where the fastener holding the gland to the rod backs off or fails, when this happens you will have the symptoms you have described.
Sometimes it takes nothing more than reinstalling a nut or bolt.
Click to expand...


[color=red:70a98a0d88][/color:70a98a0d88] Red4life - I hooked another implement which only has one hose connection. No matter which one I hooked up it when both directions with no issues.
No I do not have a gauge with male adapter. Will get one.
Not sure what you mean by hooked up to each circuit properly. These hoses/cylinders worked properly for 1 1/2 season. Then after being worked hard before planting it just stopped working properly. Thats when I replaced the hoses/couplers on the tractor. Brought the old hoses/couplers to CASE dealer and so they saw what I had and changed with new.
I will try your recommendation on testing to see if the gland seal is bad. Thanks!
 
Have you installed GAUGE and verified Hydraulic PSI supplied from pump?
Often Individuals have to start somewhere with a NUMBER to start narrowing down the problem.
Bob..


cvphoto121423.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 08:32:46 03/28/22) Does cylinder take/use more fluid than
what the tractor reservoir holds in
capacity?? Tractor reservoir will be
full when down, but if fluid level is
re-checked at the point when cylinder
can't be raised NO FURTHER, fluid
level will be empty. If so, cylinder
is to big and not intended for use
with that tractor.

After all that horsing around, do you
have air in the system??
Hoses/cylinder? Tractor will operate
cylinder untill things are under
pressure, then it will just compress
the air in the system, instead of
making cylinder operate any further.

Are both hoses getting hooked up
correctly?? All the way on, and ends
open on the male end of the connectors
when coupled?? One OK and right, the
other not, will give you the effect of
only hooking up one hose. Cylinder
will operate with very minimal travel
(maybe only an inch or two), and won't
travel any further.

You aren't by chance using the wrong
hose connectors?? 2 or 3 different
kinds. You can't use 1 kind for the
female ends, and be using a different
kind for the male ends.
Click to expand...
Determined -That implement has worked for 1 1/2 seasons. Then stopped working as it should right when I finished discing the field.
How do I determine if there is air in the system. Or better question how do I get the air out? Ive bled brake lines many times, but figuring not the same for hydraulics lol.
When you say hoses hooked up properly, if the connections were not hooked up completely wouldnt fluid come where its connected. Is there another way to check if not right?
I brought the old hoses and connections right to a CASE dealer and they gave me replacements based on those. Thanks for your continued feedback!
 
(quoted from post at 08:07:23 03/28/22) Take the cylinder off the disk and lay it on the ground and then see if it operates. This will tell id something is binding up on the disk. If it operates then it is not the cylinder or hoses. Did you replace the couplers as well as rge hoses or just the hoses? If replaced couplers do you still have the old ones to compair to? Some couplers look the same but are not and will not work.
Click to expand...

Leroy - I will test the cylinder while off the disc. I will let ya know the result.
And yes both the hoses and female ends have been replaced. These were brought straight to a Case dealer and they gave me new hoses and female connections. Thanks for your feedback!
 
jbokelm Regarding the connections being hooked up properly or completely.
If your tractor has 2 sets of remotes on it (4 hoses) then hooking the lines up wrong would prevent proper operation.
For example if the top 2 couplers were one circuit and the bottom 2 were the other circuit hooking up one hose to a top coupler and the other to a bottom coupler would prevent proper flow.
If your tractor only has one set of couplers then disregard the statement about proper connection and see below regarding complete connection.

As far as not being hooked up completely goes sometimes be it because of dirt, a worn or damaged tip or coupler, mismatched parts etc it may seem like a coupler has fully engaged but due to any of the above the pins may not fully open up the spring loaded check balls that prevent fluid from leaking out when disconnected.

While messy if done carefully one can loosen a hose at the cylinder end and briefly engage the control to see if fluid is spraying out meaning it is making it's way through the system and couplers as it should.
 
Your description makes sense, but the problem does not make sense.......

There is some smaller issue going on here. Not the tractor pump.

Ive heard of hoses getting a bad spot inside and creating a flap or internal bulge that works like a one way valve.

If you could find another cylinder complete with hoses and try that.....

Im guessing something in your quick connectors, hoses, cylinder is messed up.

But there is always that 1% that it really is something more serious........

Paul
 
(quoted from post at 11:04:35 03/28/22) Your description makes sense, but the problem does not make sense.......

There is some smaller issue going on here. Not the tractor pump.

Ive heard of hoses getting a bad spot inside and creating a flap or internal bulge that works like a one way valve.

If you could find another cylinder complete with hoses and try that.....

Im guessing something in your quick connectors, hoses, cylinder is messed up.

But there is always that 1% that it really is something more serious........

Paul
Click to expand...
Paul - Is it possible that I need a new valve or the lever on the tractor maybe came loose and not pushing the valve far enough? Thanks for the feedback!
 
(reply to postat 16:55:23 03/28/22)
Click to expand...

Had this same problem. One of my remote valves was closed, when I switched hoses the same lever direction made it try to lower where before it made it try to raise. Seems like you may be deadheading the return, causing partial operation. Check to make sure each direction on your valve does something.

Good luck.
 
Here is one simple way to help rule out a bad male or female coupler. Unplug the hose that LOWERS the disk from the tractor. Screw the male coupler off the end of that hose and stick it in a pail. Hold that hose down in the pail and hit the hydraulic lever to raise the disk. If the disk goes all the way up and oil shoots out of the hose you stuck in the pail the problem is probably in the coupler, either the female coupler on the tractor or the male coupler on the hose. If the cylinder does raise all the way and hits the top, keep holding the hydraulic lever in the raise position. If oil is still shooting out of the hose after the disk is raised all the way you have a problem with the cylinder. Hold the hose firmly when you do this so the hose does not fly out of the pail and shoot oil all over your glasses. Dont ask me how I know about this. LOL Where this happened all of a sudden when you were finishing the field it tells me something either happened to the disk or the cylinder and the tracor pump is OK.
 
Sounds like maybe one of the hoses just unplugged from the coupler. I've had that happen and nothing would raise completely nor if switched would drop completely if up.
 
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