- Thread starter Hoofer B
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john in la
Well-known Member
Was it worth it?
Are we talking about the guys that sold the cows or the guy trying to compete with the exported genetics ????
Lots of people do things to make a buck today never thinking how they are stabbing their children or grandchildren in the back.
Are we talking about the guys that sold the cows or the guy trying to compete with the exported genetics ????
Lots of people do things to make a buck today never thinking how they are stabbing their children or grandchildren in the back.
Only if you invested the money from the sales wisely. That did not happen most of the time. Most put that money into buildings that have fallen to the ground or equipment that is ready for the scrap man if not gone already. Improved genetics helped with the bottom line for the moment but pushed a lot of farmers out of business including those who were big believers of artificial breeding. Dairy farmers never learned that there is only so much product to be bought at a profitable price and once that happens the Co-op will offer down to subsistence pricing including making mother and son have off farm jobs to support the dairy. Happens in the crop business as well.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
Big question is was it worth it to the people that bought them.Shipping an animal raised here in the US on high quality feed inputs that probably aren't affordable or available in most of the World will result in that animal being a big disappointment to the buyers.Also putting livestock in a situation where the foodstuffs are totally different,different climate and diseases the animals has never been exposed to it'd be surprising if the animal lived very long much less be productive.
Bruce from Can.
Well-known Member
- Location
- Woodville, Ontario, Canada
I find some of these replies spot on, and others almost amusing. When I was a kid, most dairy farms had Grade or not regestered full blood Holstein cows. Many farmers were scrambling to buy Pure Bred Holstein cows, as the idea at the time was the superior genetic quality of the Pure Bred cows would increase their milk production and improve their bottom line. The export market of Pure Bred Holstein cattle into the USA and Mexico drove our local domestic market. And many of the Pure Bred cows didnt milk any better than their stable mates that had no papers. But there was nothing to brag about with unclassified grade cows, no Very Good or Excellent classification from the Holstein Association, and no entry into the local fairs without Pure Bred papers. A entire industry was built on bluster and postering, and this didnt really put much more milk in the tank. Better feed, better feed storage, better varieties of alfalfa and corn, and most importantly a better understanding of when to cut the hay and chop the corn to achieve maximum feed value. Yes better genetics has helped improve milk yield, but nothing has changed the value of dairy cattle more in the last decade than sexedsemen and Genomic testing to determine if favourable characteristics will transfer from parents to offspring. The vast majority of Pure Bred breeding herds have disappeared because there isnt any market for dairy replacement heifers due to never needing to ever get a bull calf. No demand equals no export market.
Dairy exports are way down from what? I don't recall there ever being many dairy exports until the past few decades. I was pretty involved in Michigan Milk Producers Assn, but maybe my memory is farther gone than I thought. Your analogy is like saying that livestock should never have been sent to the Americas from Europe in the 16 and 1700s. Do you think they're saying OOPS now?
Let me ask you this. Are you opposed to capitalism and free enterprise? If my family had been breeding registered Holsteins for generations and the Holstein Assn worked with officials in another country to arrange to export my genetics at a good price for me, should the US government or public opinion prevent me from doing it and making money?
Now whether or not they keep a strong genetic line going by using proper mating or whether they breed them down to useless offspring is up to them.
Now whether or not they keep a strong genetic line going by using proper mating or whether they breed them down to useless offspring is up to them.
A lot of misunderstanding going on here. Nobody is questioning the right to breed animals in any given manner. The OP is asking that since a few decades have passed since these programs were ongoing was it worth it? The people that were in it and the institutions promoting it as Bruce hinted at promised great prosperity for many years into the future that would help future generations here in the US. The guys breeding for export (I know a few) have been out of the business in a lot of cases for over 20 years. Their farms belong to someone else and there are very few signs of their time on the farm which remain. The money spent on new parlors, new barns, and new equipment are gone or are far from obvious. The dream of a son taking over or the daughter bringing home the ideal SIL never happened. The new tractor from 1985 worn out. The 100,000 dollars (yes, this happened) spent on the kids really did not change their lives one bit. What money was banked out of these sales is gone. Mother and father probably lived it up while in late middle age but old age has turned out like it would have had they not engaged in extensive breeding programs.
Goose
Well-known Member
Around 20 to 30 years ago, a dairy farmer near Seward, Nebraska, Paul (Biz) Rolfsmeier by name, now deceased, regularly bought up dairy cows and flew them to Europe on a specially rigged transport plane. He'd developed a market for them over there.
Must have been profitable or he wouldn't have done it. He was one of five brothers and they all knew how to make money.
Must have been profitable or he wouldn't have done it. He was one of five brothers and they all knew how to make money.
Genetics mattered a great deal a few generations ago in terms of creating a competitive edge in the business. My mother's father was into ABS (AI) almost on the ground floor shortly after WWII. He was using the same university information as everybody else in terms of nutrition and agronomy as everybody else but selective cow breeding put more milk in the bulk tank by a substantial margin than his neighbors. You gave me one more reason to call on my aunt than I already have as she has some county newsletters which substantiates what I am saying. He had cows during the mid-1960's that were producing over 30,000 pounds of milk. The herd average was under that by a fair margin but the point is he was trending in the right direction in terms of helping his bottom line. Agree with a lot of the other things that you say. There were ungraded cows that milked close to their fancy gene cousins but there was no money in that for the breeding associations. No bragging rights if you will. AI is still around but it no longer is the gap generator it was decades ago as everybody is in to it now.
Sounds like you're talking about all of the double 4 parlors and 20x70 silos that went up in the 70s and have stood empty since the 80s. That was before there were many dairy exports or genetics being exported. That whole disaster and titanic shift in the dairy industry had a whole different dynamic. For years the government had been setting the price of milk and propped it up with government purchases, Reagan was inaugurated in January 1981. We were due a parity price increase in March. Up until then, we had gotten an increase every year. He and David Stockman put a stop to it. We didn't get that increase in March and never got another one. It wasn't long before our base/surplus milk marketing producer pay system was totally out the window and profits were at best hit and miss cycles. It had nothing to do with exports of cattle or dairy products. The US Dairy Export Council was just founded in 1995.
You are correct when describing the industry by and large. I'm trying to keep the discussion to the guys who were selling AI sourced cows whether it be to customers here or in Canada or to be exported. I would say the boom time for that was the 1980's. This was when the locally originated 100,000 dollar cow was sold to go overseas. All I am saying is that for the vast majority of those farms that made those sales their long term dreams were never realized. The ultimate dream of having that farm run for generations with great success very seldom happened. Most did not use the windfall in the best manner possible. The 100,000 dollar cow farmer was out of the dairy business not even 20 years after the sale. He gave most of the money to the kids. They were not bad kids and I graduated high school with one of them. But in the end they could not help but be human and in a less than desirable sense.
Bruce from Can.
Well-known Member
- Location
- Woodville, Ontario, Canada
I am very much in favour of capitalism and free enterprise. The only hang up with the whole breed association thing was, really only the early innovators got the most gain. Sort of like working piece work in a factory. If the line runs 20 widgets per hour, and you can do 25, you get extra, seems right correct and fair. The problem arises when everyone speeds up to 25 widgets, and the company raises the base rate to 25, then you will have to do 30 widgets per hour to get extra. I think the dairy industry has pretty well reached the maximum genetic performance available from a cow now. Feeding palm fats or goo foo dust, its nearly all been tried now.
Bruce from Can.
Well-known Member
- Location
- Woodville, Ontario, Canada
The county I grew up in had many elite purebred breeders, they are mostly all gone just as you say. Some empty barns still stand, some of their kids still hang on the rails at the dairy shows, but the dreams of continued prosperity through export sales and bull sales all ran out. Most of the breeder farms relied heavily on livestock sales, and could never make ends meet just selling milk. I do remember a few times a fella would sell a cow for record price to some farm in another province, and then they would retain 50% ownership. But the message rang out how this farm had sold a cow for 100 Grand !! Naturally the farmer in the next province also sold a high price cow, and retained a 50% interest. And all of his neighbours new he must have some really valuable cows . No money ever changed hands between the two farmers. Just a publicitys stunt.
You're kind making Bruce's point at the same time though. Your perspective would depend on whether you made more profit selling milk or selling cattle and genetics. Hind site's 20/20. How many times do you have the chance to make money today doing what you do that your first thought is of what will happen 20 years down the road? Especially if that deal is just something as simple as selling cattle like you always have? Why would you care if you helped increase production for your next door neighbor or somebody in a foreign country? Selling them overseas would actually be a point of pride. Since we didn't even have many dairy exports way back when, you'd probably rather have sent those cattle out of the country than increase production here.
Getting back to Bruce's point, we had a guy here who's family had bred Holsteins for generations. He had kind of an attitude and did a lot of strutting. Fact was, all he gave a darn about was pedigrees and didn't care at all about production. I found that out at a young age, but not before it cost me a fair amount of money. I bought some cows from him and gave more for them than I'd have had pay for some good grade cows. They were the most worthless cows I ever owned. When I started mentioning it around the community, that was when I started hearing stories. The one that sent the biggest feeling of dred and anxiety down my neck was from his own hired man. He said he had a few cows that would produce, but for the most part, he only cared about pedigrees. That place stands empty now too. All the fences have been taken out and the land is rented out.
Getting back to Bruce's point, we had a guy here who's family had bred Holsteins for generations. He had kind of an attitude and did a lot of strutting. Fact was, all he gave a darn about was pedigrees and didn't care at all about production. I found that out at a young age, but not before it cost me a fair amount of money. I bought some cows from him and gave more for them than I'd have had pay for some good grade cows. They were the most worthless cows I ever owned. When I started mentioning it around the community, that was when I started hearing stories. The one that sent the biggest feeling of dred and anxiety down my neck was from his own hired man. He said he had a few cows that would produce, but for the most part, he only cared about pedigrees. That place stands empty now too. All the fences have been taken out and the land is rented out.
I think that Bruce and I are close in terms of topic but approaching it from different directions. Most of the fancy guys around here had the DHIA FOR THE WHOLE HERD to back up what they were doing with the breeding. The guys that had different herds for bragging purposes were at least honest about it when asked. The bottom line was they had the milk to ship. Also, the bottom line was they were not complete business people and that is what sunk most of them. The 100,000 dollar cow farmer was good in a lot of respects but sure gave little thought to the day when his siblings came calling for their share of the homestead after his mother passed. That 100,000 dollars would have bought a good life insurance policy for mom or been a huge payment towards buying his siblings' share out. Most cow guys look at running and maintaining equipment as beneath them. No surprise that they were running very large parts and repair bills at the dealerships. I can still remember the talk around campus (I was at college for the darkest part of the very grim 1980's) when Farm Credit was running for cover from bad loans and cutting these guys off in some cases for the most basics such as manure spreaders.
A lot of truth spoken in what you say and it did help my grandfather that he was early to AI but had died long before the animal sales were happening. But it should be noted that it took decades to get to where the industry was by 1980. You are not going to take a cow that produces 18,000 pounds into a line that regularly produces 30,000 pounds in couple of generations assuming no change in diet or general care.
Bruce from Can.
Well-known Member
- Location
- Woodville, Ontario, Canada
One point that often gets over looked when comparing production numbers, is the components in the milk are critical. If a cow produced 30,000 lbs of milk at 3% butter fat and the cow in the stall beside her produced only 20,000lb of milk but at 5% butter fat, which cow produced the most dollar value of milk ? We are all paid out in multiple component pricing schemes now. So the shear number of lb of milk produced means little compared to the pounds of Protien and pounds of Butter Fat. Higher volume milking cows tend naturally to give lower % butter fat. My herd test is 5.5% butter fat/4% protein. We milk Jerseys
Component pricing has been a factor here for quite a while now. A lot more important than grandpa's day when the processors had a place to go with all the fluid milk. In any event at least here in the NE fluid milk is in far less demand than cheese, yogart, ice cream, etc. so your central point is spot on. I would say a dairyman here in the 1990's would have been keen to butterfat and protein production. Again, fluid production was the name of the game when artificial breeding was gaining speed.
2-3 showing high end cows? Seems like a lot compared to around here. The guys who said I'll find several investors and milk 2,000 cows and be more profitable based on efficiency ran that group off by the late 1990's at least around here. I used to think that the Holstein-Friesian Association guys used to be obnoxious but the big guys are worse. It has been said Walmart has been working vertical integration in SE PA and is looking into it here in NY. Will not matter how big you are or if your cows have papers at that point. It has been said Walmart has been selling off its over production to smaller distributors and most likley would do the same here. Won't be much of anything left in terms of independents. I think that growth is fueled too much by ego and we will all pay a price before it is done. Retiring to Florida and saying that the kids became doctors, lawyers, or engineers makes for a nice story but I wonder how much that ever happened in reality? Sadly, a fair number that I know of are working menial positions at Walmart.
BarnyardEngineering
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rochester, NY
Milk was worthless before it happened. Milk was worthless while it was happening. Milk is still worthless now.
I fail to see how it mattered one way or another. It's not like you can fill a tanker ship with milk, send it overseas, and have anything marketable.
I fail to see how it mattered one way or another. It's not like you can fill a tanker ship with milk, send it overseas, and have anything marketable.
formerly ny bill
Well-known Member
in the late 1990s, I sent a number of short bred heifers abroad, usually to Russia or Turkey. They needed to be registered, bred to an AI bull, and meet modest production standards. Daughters of cows that were short milkers (milk like crazy for 6 months, and then dry themselves off) still met the requirements. So off they went. Selling those heifers made the remaining herd better, and the registration papers got me some extra $$$ when I sold the herds (twice, to expanding herds).
As to exports, last I knew the US was exporting in excess of 15% of production. That is a recent (w/in 10 years?) development. For a long time prior, we were stuck in a 4-6% export slump. So I don't believe sending those heifers out hurt things at all.
Another factor in the $100,000 cow topic was the ability of investors to shelter non-farm income in agriculture. There was a group of farms in the next county under the umbrella of Dreamstreet. Buy a 60 cow farm, populate it with flashy, expensive cows owned by NYC types, and make competition harder for the man milking his own cows. When the shelter laws changed, the scheme died, along with several of the barns.
As to exports, last I knew the US was exporting in excess of 15% of production. That is a recent (w/in 10 years?) development. For a long time prior, we were stuck in a 4-6% export slump. So I don't believe sending those heifers out hurt things at all.
Another factor in the $100,000 cow topic was the ability of investors to shelter non-farm income in agriculture. There was a group of farms in the next county under the umbrella of Dreamstreet. Buy a 60 cow farm, populate it with flashy, expensive cows owned by NYC types, and make competition harder for the man milking his own cows. When the shelter laws changed, the scheme died, along with several of the barns.
Bruce from Can.
Well-known Member
- Location
- Woodville, Ontario, Canada
I remember the Dreamstreet Prefix. Right now papers dont make most cattle anymore valuable than grades. The ability to have every calf born a heifer has saturated the market.
formerly ny bill
Well-known Member
Got to agree on the papers, today. My herd could trace back to 1961 and Maybelle. Most commercial farms today don't care.
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