Roughsawn lumber thickness

I was going to reply to Crazy's reply to Stan ('Fence boards'), but thought I'd start a new thread.

I've found finished board thickness to be very inconsistent over the years. We all know a 'one inch thick' finished board is really 3/4 inch thick. Presumably that's because back in the day, after you planed an eighth of an inch off either side of a roughsawn board you ended up with 3/4 inch, more or less. But I bought some 1x6 white cedar about twenty years ago that was actually 5/8 inch thick. Why? I have no idea, but these were clear boards and fairly expensive. I tried to buy some more a couple of years ago at the same lumberyard but they no longer carry the stuff.

Roughsawn lumber used to be 7/8 inch thick, which made sense: If you only plane one side of a roughsawn board, you'll only take off 1/8 inch. But I bought some roughsawn cedar the other day and it was 3/4 inch thick. Apparently lumber mills realized they were giving away an eighth of an inch of wood. The interesting thing is a 'roughsawn' board isn't really roughsawn anymore as there are NO SAW MARKS. Instead, it looks like they use some sort of machine that tears up the grain and gives the wood a weathered appearance. I was using some of these boards indoors, so I actually sanded the rough surface to get rid of the splinters. My assumption is the lumbermills are using saws these days that require almost no planing, so it's necessary to rough up the 'roughsawn' wood to get a rough appearance.

I did get a couple of boards that actually were roughsawn. Those were about 13/16 inch thick, a bit thinner than the old stuff. I assume they came from a different mill than 3/4 inch thick boards.

Interesting. Any rough sawn I have used in the last 30 years was cut locally with a band saw. Dimensions being exactly what you wanted them to be. I thought a better product than the old boards from a big circular saw mill. I didn't know any lumber yards sold 'rough cut'.

What really messed up my mind was learning the term 'five quarters'!

5 quarters was what thickness a lot of doors were made out of. About all we use is rough sawed lumber for building buildings around here. So it's the regular 1or 2 inch thick material. We also have some 3x5s sawed for wagon tongues or other dimensions for whatever job we want. Keep plenty of material around. Might take a bit to find some of it.

Mark,

My dad, 40 years ago, had a 4 ft belsaw that left saw marks and made a lot of sawdust.

Most mills today use bandsaws. My local guy cuts my boards 1 inch thick and by the time I'm done cleaning up the saw marks I'm left with 3/4 inch boards.

I think some sawmills today still cut true 2x4's.

I'm thinking(guessing) the adjustments on sawmills are in quarter inch increments.

I've bought a lot of ruff sawn red oak, 1 inch and 2 inch increments.

The last red oak log I sent to the sawmill came back 1 inch thick.

Someone with a sawmill can best answer your question about thickness.

> I didn't know any lumber yards sold 'rough cut'.

Roughsawn lumber is generally used for exterior trim. Here in Michigan it's available in both pine and cedar, one inch boards up to 12 inches wide. You can also get 3/8 inch roughsawn plywood for soffits. And of course T1-11 siding is usually roughsawn. Our house, built in the seventies, has cedar shiplap siding that's no longer readily available; if I need to replace a board I buy roughsawn cedar and mill it into shiplap.

Most of the roughsawn I've seen has bandsaw marks, but I have bought a few boards that were cut with a circular blade.

I have bought a fair amount of rough sawn lumber, mostly local pine and hemlock. It has mostly been sawn on a circular saw mill. There was a huge band saw mill 25 miles away that opened to great fanfare twenty years ago, but their overhead was so high that they lasted only ten years. The local circular saw mills saw to full dimension, and you can see the blade marks. Thickness will vary a little, depending greatly on the length. A twelve footer can be off 1/4 inch end to end.

George, there's a place not too far from me, <a href=http://www.armstrongmillworks.com/>Armstrong Millworks</a>, that specializes in hardwood. They'll sell you roughsawn lumber, or mill it to whatever dimensions you want. The last time I bought from them, they could provide wood milled and sanded to thickness only the same day, but if you wanted your lumber cut to width and sanded four sides you had to wait a couple of days. After sawing the wood and planing to thickness, they run it through a huge sanding machine that takes it down to final thickness. Quite amazing to watch.

There is a local lumber yard here that will rough saw whatever dimension you want. They use a big band saw.

I had some trim made to match the original on my house. They will cut whatever you want, problem is you won't want much for the price they charge!

Mark


Midway between Plainfield and Terre Haute is C C Cook. That's where I got my ruff sawn red oak. This was my last major wood project. Took me months to make. Dovetails and special cuts for doors.
I made this for a picture, no blueprints.

A womans idea of a tool box.

All the big mills in my area use a band saw these days,very few circular mills left.Small portable mills are very popular they'll come in and cut to whatever specs you want.They are more accurate then the old circular mills generally.Still a lot of mills around about 10 different outfits were bidding on the timber I just sold the outfit that bought it has 11 or 12 mills.

George, that's quite impressive. It must have taken you many months to build.

I agree the rough sawn appears to be added intentionally by a separate process now a days. Some of the interior paneling board choices aren't even 3/4. When I built my house in 93 I needed smooth 1 inch cedar. I had to buy rough sawn and use the smooth B side.

I had some big pine logs sawed into 2x6's last year, I asked for 1 3/4. Sometime during the job he hit a couple of fence staples, apparently there had been wire stapled to the tree, not from my property. It was a circle sawmill, I think after he hit the staples the quality went downhill! Some of the boards were less than 1 1/2. I planed them down to 1 3/8 for stair treads.

Fifty years ago the best place for farm lumber where I grew up was Odon Sawmill, Odon, Indiana. I would go when dad was gone and mom would give me 10 or 20 bucks and I could get what I needed for my hog houses, gates, etc. It was probably only $.25 a board ft or so. Real nice oak and popular. Had to use the oak before it got dry though. When dad went we only got the free stuff from the scrap pile. Used it for firewood but also found a lot of shorter lengths of usable lumber.

Bandmills have different scales to use to measure. There is the inch scale, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, 7/4 and 8/4 scales. Logic would indicate that 4/4 and Inch are the same, but they are not. A board cut to the 4/4 scale is about 1 1/8 thick. A board cut to the Inch scale is 1 inch thick.

I have a small bandmill. The accuracy of the cut board size is based on the eye of the operator in matching the scale. The sawmill head/blade is raised and lowered by a screw similar to a trailer jack. One full turn is a quarter inch up or down with the blade.

A lot of factors affect board quality with a portable mill. How level the sawmill is both front to back and side to side, the sharpness of the blade, how many knots are in the log, the list goes on...

In my area you'd of been paying the repair bill for the damage for taking them logs with metal in them.

Rough sawn from a lumberyard isn't the same thing you get from a sawmill. From the sawmill it's 1 inch + or - 1/8 or it was years ago when I learned to saw. I had my mill set up to 1 in + 1/16 per 16 ft. That means at no point was it under 1 inch and at no point was it more than 1/16 over. Most aren't set up that close. It's hard to do. Of course on special orders you can get anything you want.

Interesting stuff Mark ..... I'm going a big off topic now but finishing plywood up here is quite confusing. Even though we are on the metric system, all that kind of plywood is still a full 4' x 8' in outside size but the thickness is in millimeters. I'll use 3/4 finishing plywood as an example but the same thing applies to all thicknesses of finishing plywood.

I found that out the hard way 30 years ago when I built a bunch of oak plywood cabinets and used a 3/4 router bit to make the dado slots. Lucky for me I realized quick that they seemed a bit wide for the plywood which they were. I went back and bought a 19mm router bit and it worked perfectly. The 19 mm size is often said to be equivalent to 3/4 but it's a bit narrower.

BUT, sheets of say MDF or OSB are a full 3/4 thick. Rough grade construction plywood might be 3/4 thick, I'm not sure.

Sizing of roughsawn is entirely on the mill operator. We have a local mill everyone calls "Thick n Thin Lumber". You get all sorts of stuff there and it's been that way through 4 or 5 owners and who knows how many sawyers. Saem thing with the local bandmill operator. If you want a full 1" planed board, then you need to start out with 5 or 6/4 wood.

I can pretty much guarantee you that modern commercial mills don't plane anywhere near 1/8" off each surface of their boards to get to finished dimension. That's wasted wood and wasted wood is lost money.

It's the same wherever you get your lumber from. Some guys saw the rough cut to the same size as finished lumber, a 2x4 is 1-1/2x3-1/2, the claim being if you want to use it as framing lumber it's compatible with commercial framing lumber.

As for the 1X6 white cedar you bought, you may of wanted 1X6, but the lumber yard only had 5/8 so thats what they sold you. White cedar probably something they didn't carry. But had some extra 5/8 laying around that they special ordered in for somebody else, and they didn't buy it all. Sold you the extra. Explains why they didn't have any left when you tried to by more.
Band saws don't turn as much wood into sawdust as a circular blade. Don't leave the circular saw marks neither. Just some fant vertical marks that don't take much to plane off. I'm sure band saws are set up to cut thinner lumber to accommodate for this. End product being the same as if cut by circular blade.
There is a difference in finished thickness for finished on one side, and finished on two.
A very long time ago, rough cut meant that a 2X4 was really cut down to 2X4 and left rough and sold that way. If you tear down a very old building and salvage the lumber, you'll run into studs that are true 2X4s and rough cut. That was before the days of expensing the customers for the saw dust of milling, and selling the void and reduced dementions to the customer.
If you or the lumbar yard go straight to the source (being the sawmill), you can special order/buy any demention you want.

Get you a wood-mizer with acu-set and just set and forget. I can set mine for 1 inch finished and ever time it comes back it drops down just right. I saw a lot of red cedar for the swing builders ect and the all want a 1 inch thick boart then they plane it to their thickness.

No a separate process but big mills break down logs on circle mills with rougher finish before they resew the cant with multiple head bandsaws. Well tuned resaw band produces very smooth finish.

Redforlife, in my neck of the woods on the baren plains of northwest Iowa most of the buildings were built with lumber yard lumber unless the building site was close to a river valley that had trees. From my experience with tearing down old buildings full sized lumber pretty much ended around 1900 or maybe a little before. They went from square nails to round nails at about that same time frame. The first part of my house was built around the very late 1890's and it has planed lumber but not quite to 1 1/2" thickness for the 2" lumber. The old part of my house also is put together with round nails.

Some of the real old full sized lumber I have removed from buildings did not have circular marks and the lumber was very soft so I assume it came in on the train instead of from a local sawmill. The local sawmills in those days were circular and most of the lumber available was oak or maple because those were the trees growing in the river valleys. In 1900 there were no large farm groves with trees large enough to use for lumber in this area.

Saw mills are scarce in this area even today and they are long gone from the river valley areas. There is a fella with a nice saw mill inside a building a few miles away from me but I have never used his services mainly because I don't have any big trees to saw.

Lot of interesting answers on this subject
I'm not a expert and can only try to relate to the hardwood lumber that is most common in my area, red oak, white oak, hickory, popular, maple, beech, black walnut, cheery
A friend owns a local sawmill that I worked at for over 20 years maintaining the mill and driving a truck delivering lumber
Years ago they mainly sawed rough cut barn lumber and cross ties for the RR, the lumber was cut to full dimension, a 1 inch board was cut 1 inch, a 2x4 was 2x4
Today they cut lumber for flooring and furniture manufactures along with sawing cross ties and pallet stock from the heart wood (center of the log), heart wood normally contains more knots and defects that flooring and furniture makers don't want

First off I will say that NO fresh sawn lumber is used directly as a finished product other than maybe fencing, the lumber must first be dried either by natural air drying that can take up to 7 years or thru steam heated kiln drying that can take a few days to a few weeks
When lumber is dried it shrinks so a board that was cut 1 inch thick is no longer 1 inch, once dried it is then planed down to get a smooth finish, this can take 1/6 to 1/8 inch from each side to remove the saw marks depending on if it was sawn with a circle saw or band saw, so the end product is now 5/8 to 3/4 inch thick
The dimensional lumber yards that dry and plane lumber to a finished size require the sawmills to cut the lumber thicker to insure there's enough wood to get the proper finished size required by the manufacture of the finished product
The lumber we sawed was 4/4 =1 1/8, 5/4 =1 3/8, 6/4 =1 5/8, 8/4 =2 1/8
Todays production sawmills have computer set works that can be set to change board thickness as little as 1/64 inch.
Most large production saw mills now run all band saws while some still use a circle saw head rig to remove the slabs and square up the log before it's sent thru a band resaw or gang edger to produce the final boards
The last mill we built uses a circle head rig and a band resew
There much more I can add but this is already getting long

Seems like I remember that 2x4s were 1 5/8 x 3 5/8 when I was young. Then at some point in the early sixties that changed to the current 1 1/2 x 3 1/2.

> Interesting stuff Mark ..... I'm going a big off topic now but finishing plywood up here is quite confusing. Even though we are on the metric system, all that kind of plywood is still a full 4' x 8' in outside size but the thickness is in millimeters. I'll use 3/4 finishing plywood as an example but the same thing applies to all thicknesses of finishing plywood.

Well, CH, down in the states, 3/4 inch plywood isn't actually 3/4. It's almost always a 32^nd under, so 3/4 inch plywood is actually 23/32, and it's usually marked as such. That's true of pretty much all plywood grades, as well as OSB and MDF. Also, sheathing and flooring plywood is slightly undersized in length and width to allow for a bit of space between sheets when nailed to studs, rafters and joists.

They do make undersize router bits specifically for cutting dadoes for plywood. I have one for half inch plywood, but I found to my surprise that half inch Baltic Birch is actually a full half inch thick, and I had to plane the sheets to get them to fit my dadoes. (Baltic Birch, a Russian product, is an interesting subject in itself. It's a very high quality plywood that comes in five foot square sheets. Why? I have no idea.)

I used metric-dimension 4 millimeter okume marine plywood to make a lapstrake canoe. This stuff is truly metric and it doesn't match any US plywood in thickness. The sheets are nominally 4x8, but as I recall slightly undersize to match some metric spec.

for some of my design projects i have used Large SYP timbers rough sawn on one side for lowering bending stresses stress and for better joint fit

Mark .... all a result of poor standardization I guess .... I've used Baltic Birch myself, great stuff for when I built drawers .... used it for the drawer sides, backs and fronts .... and then a finished solid oak attached to the front panel of the drawer. Very nice wood to work with, and why 5x5 I have no idea but I remember that.

When I built my new living room 12 years ago, I had a gentleman come on site with a bandsaw. I had all of the cherry for the inside wall sawed at 1 inch. I left it one year and then I planed it to 3/4 inch. The structural hemlock was sawed at 2 inches and used rough as is. The hard maple I sawed for the living room floor was sawed 1 1/8 inches and I planed it to 7/8 inch. The lumber I had sawed this fall for the new roof on the lower section of my house will be used rough. Rough cut lumber will shrink a bit if it dries long enough. It will also swell back up again if it gets rained on. But that won't last long as soon as the sun comes out and dries it off.

This discussion has flipped between softwood and hardwood. Each area of the country has different rules for grading often different for different species. Each species is cut oversized so when its dried it is at an inch or the desired thickness. The 4/4 is often skip planed to 15/16 which gives a good look at the grain of the board. When it is planed to 13/16 it is almost completely surfaced and is used when it will be sanded to 3/4 The pine woods are treated similar. Pine can often be obtained in 7/8 surfaced two edges and one face with one face rough. These boards are used for matching old root boards , barn boards and fence boards. The cedar product is getting more scarce resulting in thinner product to stretch the supply. The optinum for horse fences is 1x6 16 foot green white oak. That being said every sawyer has his own program and often saws to his customers specifications

(quoted from post at 11:16:42 12/01/21) . That's true of pretty much all plywood grades, as well as OSB and MDF. .

I found to my surprise that half inch Baltic Birch is actually a full half inch thick, and I had to plane the sheets to get them to fit my dadoes. (Baltic Birch, a Russian product, is an interesting subject in itself. It's a very high quality plywood that comes in five foot square sheets. Why? I have no idea.)

Click to expand...

All MDF sold around here is full thickness.
All the 1/2" nominal Baltic Birch I've seen or bought is actually 12mm thick, you must have had an odd batch, maybe it was ApplePly?
3/4" nominal BB is 18mm. BB production is done on machines built to European specs, thus the 1525mm x 1525mm size of the sheets. What makes the BB plywood so much better is that the inner plies are made from the same wood as the outer veneer, unlike other plywood that use a cheaper, softer wood on the inside. The BB holds screws better, cuts cleaner, and looks better than other plywood. I have made projects with BB and finish the edges with stain and sealer, you don't have to use banding.
BillL

> All MDF sold around here is full thickness.

I was probably mistaken about that.

> All the 1/2 nominal Baltic Birch I've seen or bought is actually 12mm thick, you must have had an odd batch, maybe it was ApplePly?

12 millimeters is .472 inches. The undersize router bits for cutting 1/2 inch plywood dadoes would be 15/32 inches, or .469 inches. So the dado would be only three thousandths of an inch undersize for BB. Just enough, apparently, that the plywood won't fit without planing a small bevel on its edges. And if I recall right, the half inch BB wasn't exactly flat which also made it difficult to fit.