Dry and not-so-dry camping

We just got back from a trip to Yellowstone with our small fifth wheel RV. It was quite an education. We brought our youngest granddaughter with us and rendezvoused at the park with our other two granddaughters and their parents. This was our second trip out west with the camper, and the first that involved serious dry camping. We had an omen of problems to come when I hitched up the camper the morning of our departure and there were no marker lights on the trailer. It took me a couple of hours, including a trip to the auto parts store for fuses, to find and fix the problem. It turned out a strain relief on the electrical box where the electrical lead attaches to the camper was pinching a wire and shorted out the lights. I threw my Fluke multimeter in the RV tool box when I was done, which came in useful later.

OK, first the good parts: Everyone had a great time at Yellowstone. My wife cooked up some great meals and all the granddaughters slept in the camper. Our Honda EU3000is generator performed flawlessly; I had rejetted the carb for the 8000 ft campground elevation. We managed to stretch out our 40 gallon water tank for all four nights, mainly by washing dishes outside, taking 'shipboard' showers and not allowing the granddaughters to use the shower. (The latter was a bit of an issue, as the campground showers were closed.) We ran out of fresh water on the morning of our departure.

Now the not-so-good parts. The temperature dropped to the low forties our first night, so we ran the furnace. I forgot to turn the thermostat down before going to bed, so it ran a lot and ran the battery way down. With campground restrictions on generator use, I wasn't able to run the generator more than about three hours a day and never got the battery recharged. The problem seemed to be our camper's WFCO 8955 power converter: It wouldn't put out more than 13.6 volts, even when the battery was totally dead. It seems this is a common problem with this particular converter. My first order of business now that I'm home is to order a Progressive Dynamics PD4655 power converter, which is a direct replacement for the junk WFCO module and is said to work flawlessly.

On our way back we stopped at a RV park on the plains east of Bismarck, ND. Early the next morning, we got hit with a big thunderstorm. Midway through the storm I noticed the furnace blower was running, even though the furnace was turned off. I think high winds blew water into the furnace vent, shorting out something in the furnace circuitry. So I start looking for the furnace fuse. No furnace fuse. Eventually I figure out it's on the REFRIGERATOR circuit! WTF? The refrigerator is the one appliance that absolutely needs 12 volts at all times, and it shares its fuse with another appliance? I pull out the power converter and sure enough there's a splice in the rat's nest behind the converter. I clipped the wire to the furnace and we were back on our way. I'm going to move the furnace circuit over to one of the unused fuse slots.

A couple of questions for more experienced RV guys:

1. When the battery voltage drops, our water pump will start running continuously. If you're asleep or not in the trailer to turn it off, it will completely discharge the battery. Is this just the nature of the beast, or is there a pump that's better behaved? Our pump is a Flojet brand, if that makes any difference.

2. Our 15k BTU Dometic Brisk Air II air conditioner has already been replaced once, and I think the replacement is likely to fail soon. If it does, I'd like to replace it with something quieter and hopefully more reliable. Any recommendations?

I don't know why the pump would come on unless something causes the pressure to drop to the set point then if you have low voltage the pump may not have enough RPMs to build enough pressure to shut off. Our last trip out that way we had the water pump to go completely out so we couldn't dry camp and then driving thru North Dakota our drivers side fender cover just ripped off. Last trip the Thermostat went crazy and would only cool and set point was 32 degrees. Didn't need that. Ours is a Grand Design Reflection

You guys are making a few nights in a hotel sound better all the time. They can get snow in Jackson WY on the 4th of July there. Desert can get cold at night and hot during the day.

I suspect there is an internal valve problem with the water pump. It can't run fast enough when the battery is low and can't overcome the valve leakage. Might just be something inside it holding a valve partially open.

Not up on the best AC units, but they should last a good while. Biggest problem I had was mud dobbers and mouse nests inside from sitting unused.

There used to be an online company called Dinosaur, they supplied electronic controls for obsolete furnaces and refrigerators. Been a long time, they may be gone.

One thing I learned early on, stay away from the RV dealers! Do your research and shopping online or be ready to pay outrageous mark ups for the convenience!

I agree with Nat on the pump...on ours, the pump can be manually shut off, which we do when driving since no one is in the trailer then. Yes, most trailers are not built the best, but we have had only one issue with ours in tens of thousands of kilometrs across the country. The new truck we towed it with senses issues with the trailer brakes and dings if it detects one. Well, there must have been a bad connection in the wiring that made and broke at the slightest movement, resulting in almost continuous dinging of the brake controller alarm. Easy fix at our next stop.

RVing with our kids over the years has been a much more enjoyable way of travelling than hotel rooms.....they still bring up many fond memories.

Ben

Mark,
I was at Yellowstone 1979 BC. Before Children.
We had a tent camper. Hot during the day and frost on my beard when we woke up.

With campground restrictions on generator use, I wasn't able to run the generator more than about three hours a day and never got the battery recharged.

What was their logic behind generator restrictions? noise?

So how could you use AC with generator restrictions?

Are you planning on installing solar to charge batteries?

If you used truck to drive around, have an extra battery in truck and use truck's alternator to charge it?

I have in the past experienced the same battery problems, running a deep cycle RV AGM or flooded cell below 50% greatly reduces life and capacity to accept a charge. Getting rid of the Wyco converter might help a little. I solved my problem with a Progressive Dynamics Lithium converter that has switch for either AGM or Lithium. Lithium batteries are pricey but can be discharged down to 10-20% without damage. Last spring with 40 degree nights running the furnace still had a 65% charge with 100A Aims lithium after 3 nights. Battery seems to last much longer. My email is open if you would like to talk, willing to do so.

> What was their logic behind generator restrictions? noise?

No generators before 8 am or after 8 pm. Which theoretically left 12 hours a day to run the generator, except that it was in the back of my pickup and even if I had unloaded it I wouldn't want to run it while we were gone. We would leave for the day around 10 am and get back around 7 pm, leaving only about three hours a day to run the generator. Which would have been plenty of time to charge the battery if the power converter had gone into 'boost' mode. Now my Honda inverter generator doesn't make much more noise than a car idling, but there were bozos in the park who insisted on running contractor-grade generators, so the Kampground Kop would come through the park at ten after eight and shut everybody down.

> So how could you use AC with generator restrictions?

Never needed it. Certainly not at night, when the temperature would drop down to the forties.

> If you used truck to drive around, have an extra battery in truck and use truck's alternator to charge it?

Actually, I did think of that. My Duramax has two batteries, so I wanted to borrow one and put it in the camper, but I didn't have all the tools I needed to get either battery out. I am going to bring some jumper cables next time so I can charge the RV battery off the truck alternator in a pinch. With a 180 amp alternator, it shouldn't take long.

> Are you planning on installing solar to charge batteries?

First priority is to fix the power converter issue. Then I might add another battery or switch to LiFePo4 batteries. Then maybe add some solar panels.

> I solved my problem with a Progressive Dynamics Lithium converter that has switch for either AGM or Lithium. Lithium batteries are pricey but can be discharged down to 10-20% without damage.

Thanks Dave. I believe the PD4655 converter can be switched between lead-acid and lithium batteries, so I have the option to go lithium on down the road. And very possibly will, since there's not much room for additional batteries.

If battery voltage is too low the pump may not run fast enough to achieve adequate pressure to ever shut the pressure switch off......Low battery voltage can cause some (depends on control board) furnaces to still power the fan and draw current (eventually drain the battery) but NOT light the gas IE wake up in the morning with furnace blowing cold air batteries near dead.........While the voltage has to get very low to cause fridge not to operate at all, of course it still needs voltage to operate. Many RV Gas/Elec fridges have two glass fuses on their control board (3 and 5 amp I believe) one for the 120 VAC other the 12 VDC........The 12 VDC feeder circuit is protected by a blade fuse on the DC power panel...... I replaced my 15 year old rooftop AC because the newer models are both more energy efficient and quieter (sorry dont have model number handy) .........Voltage sag subject to load current is a typical problem in lead acid batteries........ I understand a parks generator hours limitation due to their noise but especially those open frame loud screaming 3600 RPM construction gensest yukkkkkkkkk who wants to camp near those, a modern Inverter Genset is so much more quiet.........The modern so called SMART 3/4 Stage Regulated Chargers (suited to chosen battery chemistry) are such an improvement over the old buzz box near fixed constant voltage types and can increase battery life.........A shunt based battery monitor is great for accurate battery voltage, in and out current, Amp Hours so you can know exactly the battery condition......I started with RV/Marine,,,,,,,, then Deep Cycle Golf Cart batteries,,,,,,,,,,,then Deep Cycle AGM to avoid checking and adding water, now 400 Amp Hours of LiFePo4 and never looking back so we can do a lot of long term moderate energy use dry camping and with 1080 solar watts and PSW Inverter NEVER run out of electrical energy, if it rained 3/4 days on end or no sun I start the genset and let the Progressive Dynamics 80 amp Lithium Capable Converter/Charger top off my batteries.......Still with only 86 gallons of fresh water we can stay out off grid a week to 10 days but then have to take on water and dump but Im ready to move on by then regardless. We follow the 70's and if its too hot we go North or up in elevation so we dont need AC but if necessary we can start the onboard Cummins Onan Genset to power the AC......Sure this all cost money (but saved by designing and installing myself) but saves the $25 to even $50 per might campground fees plus gives us the FREEDOM to go to peaceful quiet remote scenic FREE camps run by the BLM or Natl Forest or fish and game camps yayyyyyyyyyyyyy

John T 50 year RV owner and very happy camper

PS if needed ??? and maybe if one doesn't have solar, a good method to PROPERLY WITH STAGED REGULATION charge the house batteries when driving yet NOT over tax the alternator........Is a Smart Staged Regulated DC to DC Charger......It uses limited alternator energy, say 20 or 30 or 40 amps etc., and provides smart regulated staged house battery charging when driving...

John T

Thanks for all your comments, John. Here are my responses to a few of them.

> If battery voltage is too low the pump may not run fast enough to achieve adequate pressure to ever shut the pressure switch off.

Yes, exactly what was happening. If I run out of other things to do, I might try replacing the pump. But it's low on my list right now.

> Low battery voltage can cause some (depends on control board) furnaces to still power the fan and draw current (eventually drain the battery) but NOT light the gas IE wake up in the morning with furnace blowing cold air batteries near dead.

The Attwood furnace seemed to ignite OK up until the point where there wasn't enough voltage to operate the blower.

> I understand a parks generator hours limitation due to their noise but especially those open frame loud screaming 3600 RPM construction gensest yukkkkkkkkk who wants to camp near those, a modern Inverter Genset is so much more quiet.

At Jellystone, generators are supposed to be no more than 60 db, which of course eliminates all but the quietest inverter units. Obviously this rule is not enforced. One really has to wonder why someone would think it's acceptable to run an open frame non-inverter generator in a crowded campground. I guess it's one of those Free Choice things.

> The modern so called SMART 3/4 Stage Regulated Chargers (suited to chosen battery chemistry) are such an improvement over the old buzz box near fixed constant voltage types and can increase battery life.

The WFCO (aka JUNKCO) 8955 is purportedly a 3-stage converter, but when it won't shift into boost it's really only two-stage at best. I'm pretty sure it used to go into boost (since the cooling fan would kick on), but I suppose as the battery aged the converter lost the ability to properly sense charge state. The PD 4655 is supposed to be four-stage and Li-ion capable. I'll probably go LiFePO₄ eventually, but those batteries are still a bit too pricey for me now.

> We follow the 70's and if its too hot we go North or up in elevation so we dont need AC

The return trip through Montana and North Dakota was pleasant (except for that thunderstorm) with temperatures in the seventies. No need to run that noisy AC unit or the (inoperative) furnace.

> PS if needed ??? and maybe if one doesn't have solar, a good method to PROPERLY WITH STAGED REGULATION charge the house batteries when driving yet NOT over tax the alternator........Is a Smart Staged Regulated DC to DC Charger

I just today heard of those, albeit in a different context; they make them for outboard motors to charge trolling motor batteries. As it is, I think the heavy duty alternator on my Duramax does a fairly decent job of keeping the trailer battery charged. It's supposed to kick up to 14.2 volts anytime a trailer is detected.

Thanks again John.

You probably already know this but the 4th extra Equalize Stage (like 15 + volts for limited time on SOME Chargers to de sulfate) is ONLY for flooded lead acid batteries NOT AGM and NOT Lithium. Not all Smart chargers (even if adds say otherwise) are suitable for the best optimum Lithium battery charging in addition to the normal settings for Flooded or AGM. My 12.8 volt rated Lithium batteries call for constant 14.6 charging but other brands may be different ??? I like the no voltage sag capability in Lithiums, the BMS allows full current charging till 100% and discharge to somewhere around 80+% (but voltage stays at 12.8 or even above) or where set before they completely drop out. In a matter of years SiO2 and the new generation of Solid State Batteries (no liquid or gel electrolyte but a solid state glass like substance??) will render LiFePo4 old school lol my poor daughter and her new Tesla

PS Indeed some furnace brands (Atwood perhaps??) dont keep the fan running if voltage is too low to open gas valve and ignite while others (Suburban maybe ??) keep it running regardless and drains the batteries BTDT but way back in the old days of inadequate FLA Amp Hour capacity. Also some Dinosaur brand replacement boards had an option for that

I ALWAYS install an air captive bladder accumulator tank on my pumps to reduce short cycling and more constant pressure water flow

John T

(quoted from post at 04:01:46 08/29/21) I forgot to turn the thermostat down before going to bed, so it ran a lot and ran the battery way down. With campground restrictions on generator use, I wasn't able to run the generator more than about three hours a day and never got the battery recharged.

Click to expand...

If your 7 way trailer plug on your truck is properly wired, you can charge/power your trailer with your truck charging system.

Some trucks have this but don't have the fuse/relay installed. I found mine in the glove box in the factory wrapper and installed them. 12V charging when truck is running.

Might be more expensive way to charge, but if your battery goes dead in middle of the night there are no rules about running your truck at night compared to generator.

My propane hot water heater goes nuts when voltage drops, fridge just displays "check light"

My water pump won't run at low voltage, so not sure why your pump wanted to run?

Yo 495, you state

If your 7 way trailer plug on your truck is properly wired, you can charge/power your trailer with your truck charging system

That's indeed true (Im sure Mark knows all this) and its been done for years including by myself HOWEVER there are some caveats. Based on
the size of the wire used,,,,,,,,,, and its length,,,,,,,, and resistance of the plug and connector,,,,,,,,, and ground integrity, due to
line voltage drop and net resistance there may not be any huge degree of charging amps pumped back into the house batteries.

ALSO do not try that if the house batteries are Lithium they will draw so much current your alternator may be damaged which is the reason
DC to DC Regulated Chargers are used.

Back when I used that method I ran 8 or 10 Gauge wire (overcurrent protection at BOTH ends) including a separate dedicated ground but
those 7 pole round plugs and connectors arent the best way to try and deliver high charging currents. As far as charging and loads its best
when multiple batteries are placed in parallel they be the same type and design and even age BUT HEY YOURE RIGHT THIS METHOD IS USED AND
CAN WORK even if not ideal the way some rookies use it grrrrrrrrrrr.........

Nice chatting with you best wishes and take care now

John T

> You probably already know this but the 4th extra Equalize Stage (like 15 + volts for limited time on SOME Chargers to de sulfate) is ONLY for flooded lead acid batteries NOT AGM and NOT Lithium.

John, I did not know that. But the PD4655VL converter I plan to install has a jumper that can be changed if you have Li-ion batteries. So I think I'll be OK.
Progressive Dynamics PD4655VL

Ive owned no less then 2 or 3 PD Chargers all worked fine and indeed the literature you posted indicates it can be set for Lithium and Id bet what it does is set if for something like 14.4 to 14.6 volts constant (NOT the 14.4 Bulk 13.6 Absorption and 13.2 Float for lead acid) and eliminate that high voltage Equalize DeSulfate cycle.... My PD is exclusive for Lithium at 80 Amps and is showing like 14.6 charging volts until the batteries built in BMS backs off the current. Lithium charges much faster as it can accept full current start to finish not hum haw or dilly dally around like lead acid lol BUT YES PRICEY in the short run, Im spending my kids inheritance on RV stuff woooo hoooooo

Aint this fun

John T
Progressive Dynamics Lithium Charger

> If your 7 way trailer plug on your truck is properly wired, you can charge/power your trailer with your truck charging system.

Yes, I'm aware of this and my truck seems to do a decent job of charging the trailer when we're going down the road. I didn't try to use the truck to charge the battery because the campground had a rule against extended idling. If I'd had some jumper cables I would have taken the battery outside the campground to charge it.

I opened up the furnace this afternoon and sure enough water ran out. I also discovered a lot of metal shavings and wood chips in the bottom of the furnace. Most wouldn't have caused any trouble, but some got under the control circuit board. I suppose all it took was a little water to fry the board.

I vacuumed everything out as best I could, but the furnace blower is still stuck on. I figure the control board is toast. OEM Atwood and Dinosaur Electronics board are both aroung 100 bucks, so I'll probably replace mine with an OEM board.

Back in my working career circuit boards were repaired. Now it is just replace it. are people getting dumber , or are they just too compilated now days?Our shop had a couple electronic guys. I could never do it. Stan

Stan,
I used to repair TVs.
Midwest electronics sold part for 50 years. People don't repair TV, they just buy new.
They went out of business 25 years ago, because it difficult to repair a circuit board with computer chips. And it you know what part is bad, good luck finding it.

I needed a $2 part to fix the electronic board in an electric range. The only way I could buy the part if if I bought 1000 of them.
New board was over $200,

Look how many old guys on YT ask electrical questions about old tractors. How many can convert a 6v positive ground to 12v negative ground without a diagram or wiring harness?

Look at how many auto repair shops replace with new part instead of repairing a part? Insurance and call back issues not good for business.

I recently put a new bearing in the PTO of my mower for $20. No place in town would repair it, They would put on a new part and out the door.

We live in a throw away world. I still repair somethings.

Just an idea I thought of.
But a disconnect switch on truck's second battery and run power from second battery to camper providing you can start the truck with one good battery. Reconnect second battery after you start truck.

Mark, you might want to look at the Battle Born batteries. The busgreasemonkey on YouTube has some informative videos on his experience with them and solar and all the electronics involved.

> Back in my working career circuit boards were repaired. Now it is just replace it. are people getting dumber , or are they just too compilated now days?Our shop had a couple electronic guys. I could never do it. Stan

Good question, Stan. In a previous life I fixed circuit boards. In fact, I designed hardware and software for circuit board testing and fault diagnosis. These were for military weapons systems; the boards were expensive and designed to be repaired. I could probably figure out what's bad on my furnace's control board, but my time is worth more to me than the hundred bucks a replacement board costs.

There are a lot of reasons circuit boards aren't commonly repaired these days. As circuit density increases, the ability to repair gets more difficult. It was hard enough to replace components on single layer boards and it takes real skill to desolder and replace components on today's multi-layer boards. Documentation is usually hard to get; if you don't know how a circuit board is supposed to work it's difficult to troubleshoot it. Specialized components may be difficult to obtain, and in the case of microcontrollers if you don't have the firmware there's no way you can program a new microcontroller.

The bottom line is if you can buy a replacement circuit board at a reasonable price, it probably doesn't make sense to try to fix the old one.

> Mark, you might want to look at the Battle Born batteries. The busgreasemonkey on YouTube has some informative videos on his experience with them and solar and all the electronics involved.

My, those batteries are pricey, even for LiFePo₄.

> But a disconnect switch on truck's second battery and run power from second battery to camper providing you can start the truck with one good battery. Reconnect second battery after you start truck.

That's a fairly common setup on boats, and RVs, too, I think.

Ooops: nevermind. I thought the thread was going to be about camping, but I was mistaken.

:lol:

(quoted from post at 11:27:01 08/29/21) Yo 495, you state

If your 7 way trailer plug on your truck is properly wired, you can charge/power your trailer with your truck charging system

That's indeed true (Im sure Mark knows all this) and its been done for years including by myself HOWEVER there are some caveats. Based on
the size of the wire used,,,,,,,,,, and its length,,,,,,,, and resistance of the plug and connector,,,,,,,,, and ground integrity, due to
line voltage drop and net resistance there may not be any huge degree of charging amps pumped back into the house batteries.

ALSO do not try that if the house batteries are Lithium they will draw so much current your alternator may be damaged which is the reason
DC to DC Regulated Chargers are used.

Back when I used that method I ran 8 or 10 Gauge wire (overcurrent protection at BOTH ends) including a separate dedicated ground but
those 7 pole round plugs and connectors arent the best way to try and deliver high charging currents. As far as charging and loads its best
when multiple batteries are placed in parallel they be the same type and design and even age BUT HEY YOURE RIGHT THIS METHOD IS USED AND
CAN WORK even if not ideal the way some rookies use it grrrrrrrrrrr.........

Nice chatting with you best wishes and take care now

John T

Click to expand...

Good points, I did see my factory Ford uses a relay for the 12V live, I don't know what gauge of wire but figured with relay and appropriate sized fuse at least it won't melt the truck.

My old truck had a heavy wire, think it was 10 gauge, on the 12V factory feed. I used to power a three way mini fridge with it. My trailer battery died one trip, low battery alarm went off when shore power was disconnected, I plugged truck in to tow home and alarm shut off and fridge stayed cold

Did not know that about Li batteries, I'm still on the old style ones

(quoted from post at 13:18:29 08/29/21) > If your 7 way trailer plug on your truck is properly wired, you can charge/power your trailer with your truck charging system.

Yes, I'm aware of this and my truck seems to do a decent job of charging the trailer when we're going down the road. I didn't try to use the truck to charge the battery because the campground had a rule against extended idling. If I'd had some jumper cables I would have taken the battery outside the campground to charge it.

Click to expand...

Ah, idling rule, that rules that one out. Suppose quiet truck gets away with it, older diesel would draw attention.
Local campgrounds haven't got that rule yet, even the ones that have all kinds of generator rules. I have a little inverter but haven't run into the dB police.