I was reading about the Tesla driverless car that crashed last week, and killed two people. that's not very good advertising for the self driving Tesla. Too bad two people died. Then it took 4 hours to extinguish the battery fire. I don't see batteries being used in vehicles, are going to prove them selves for a long time. Also driverless cars, Why do we need them? Too wet to mow today so here I sit wasting time on my computer. Stan
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Pete in Holland MI
Member
There ARE benefits of driverless cars, but they aren't for everyone, nor every application. Consider older people who shouldn't be on the road, or someone taking a long business trip after a long day, or jumping in the car after work on Friday & have it drive 15 hours away to enjoy golfing for the weekend, then have you back home in time for a good rest before work, or heavy traffic areas where bumper to bumper traffic has you in the car for an hour not getting anywhere and you can take some business calls or a nap while the car focuses on the road.
The technology is still in its infancy, so there are things to learn. Really not sure how they'll do here in Michigan on a snow covered road, nor, who really is at fault if a driverless car hits & kills someone.
The industry is still learning......
The technology is still in its infancy, so there are things to learn. Really not sure how they'll do here in Michigan on a snow covered road, nor, who really is at fault if a driverless car hits & kills someone.
The industry is still learning......
rustred
Well-known Member
makes no sense to me either. just making us into a bunch of robots. guess the ones that cant pass a drivers test will be happy! we have problems now, but worst is on the way. a while back there was this driverless car that was going way over the speed limit cruising to calgary with the occupant asleep at the wheel that the cops caught.
Tgrasher
Well-known Member
- Location
- South Southern illinois
I would trust a horse to do a better job of taking me home than one of those cars.
John M
Well-known Member
- Location
- Nunyafn business
2 people died because no one was behind the wheel. One was in the passenger seat, and the other in the back seat. Probably had more to do with the drinks they had that technology.
Kansas4010
Well-known Member
I don't believe a computer can replace a human driver. The problem is how many people do you see driving while distracted. Playing on their phones, radio, or whatever. A few years ago I was building a new fence along the road. Neighbor drove by and became more interested in what I was doing than watching the road. He hit the ditch and almost wiped out the fence I was just putting in. A computer doesn't get distracted, or tired, or nosy. I've been working a lot of overtime lately. The other day I was driving home and went to sleep. I drifted across the road in front of another car. Completely my fault but I was lucky someone else was in the car and yelled and I pulled it back over in time. They certainly have several bugs to work out before it's perfected but there are benefits to self driving cars.
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
I hate the idea of the self driving cars but then people are so self centered today they can't devote themselves to something like driving. They have to text or read the want ads or fix their makeup. Putting the rest of the drivers on the road at risk isn't important.
Tesla announced yesterday they are closing their factory plant in Netherlands. They had 96 employees there. They said they could not re-model the plant to handle the new S models coming out. Sounds kinda hokey to me, make one wonder if this is related to poor sales in Europe. However, I think the regular Tesla are selling well here in the States. Don't think we need driver less cars on busy highways.
Steve@Advance
Well-known Member
Tesla is considered driver assist, not driverless.
Somehow the car was tricked into thinking there was a driver behind the wheel. From what I've heard, you jamb a rubber ball in the steering wheel, it thinks it's a hand.
We recently bought a a Toyota Highlander. It had lane assist. it is awful! No way could it be trusted, it follows the striping on the roadway. I tried it one time, never again.
The cruse control works well, it looks for the car in front and adjusts the speed down if needed. When I had the lane assist on, I had the cruse set on 70 and was held back by the car in front going about 60. There was an exit ramp, the car in front went straight, my car tried to follow the line to the exit ramp. When it saw the car in front was gone, it hard accelerated up to 70, at the same time taking the sharp exit turn. Had I not hit the brake, it would have been very bad!!!
I like the cruse, but the lane assist is very dangerous!
As for driverless cars and trucks, we're not there yet. I don't see it happening until we have dedicated, fenced, roadways where all vehicles are computer controled. Too many variables otherwise.
Somehow the car was tricked into thinking there was a driver behind the wheel. From what I've heard, you jamb a rubber ball in the steering wheel, it thinks it's a hand.
We recently bought a a Toyota Highlander. It had lane assist. it is awful! No way could it be trusted, it follows the striping on the roadway. I tried it one time, never again.
The cruse control works well, it looks for the car in front and adjusts the speed down if needed. When I had the lane assist on, I had the cruse set on 70 and was held back by the car in front going about 60. There was an exit ramp, the car in front went straight, my car tried to follow the line to the exit ramp. When it saw the car in front was gone, it hard accelerated up to 70, at the same time taking the sharp exit turn. Had I not hit the brake, it would have been very bad!!!
I like the cruse, but the lane assist is very dangerous!
As for driverless cars and trucks, we're not there yet. I don't see it happening until we have dedicated, fenced, roadways where all vehicles are computer controled. Too many variables otherwise.
Pete in Holland MI
Member
Thousands of people have been injured and killed in farming accidents getting farm machinery to the level that it is today. Last I knew we were not farming with horses anymore.
New technology has its issues. Engineers do their best to forsee issues, but sometimes, it's only once a product gets into the field that those unusual circumstance surface and then need to be dealt with.
New technology has its issues. Engineers do their best to forsee issues, but sometimes, it's only once a product gets into the field that those unusual circumstance surface and then need to be dealt with.
Here is how your next cross country trip will go. Program the car to drive to the next charging station and the alarm clock for the same time. Take a nap, post on YT for a while, get up, plug in charger, eat, and go to bathroom. Then repeat. No need for motels.
At the farm, program your computer controlled tractor to disk a field. Go post on YT for a while. Then repeat. Program the tractor to plow the south 40. Go to bed. Repeat the next morning. Then post on YT and ask Tractor Vet how to program the tractor so it makes perfectly straight rows. He will be the first to work on one. Then tell R2D2 to make sure the tractor is full of gas and oil.
This was before my time but I remember my grandfather telling about the old mailman they had who used a horse and buggy . He liked to drink and the horse would always get him home if he fell asleep or was too drunk to drive the horse. Maybe they should forget the electric car and everyone can go amish and have a self driving buggy.
Crazy Horse
Well-known Member
Always something mentioned (like no driver in place) that is missing in the post. Last year in the US, there were almost 120 traffic deaths per day, Tesla has a lot of catching up to do. Here's Tesla's stock price below over the past number of years, too bad most of us didn't invest in the thing that would never happen ....
Untitled URL Link
Untitled URL Link
Janicholson
Well-known Member
The cars are not driverless, and there was no occupant in the control seat. So they paid for ignorance with their lives.
See Steve@advance below!! !! !!
See Steve@advance below!! !! !!
This is not the first Tesla crash involving a not-involved driver. The first one that I remember was a fellow who was well known for driving very fast and texting at the same time. Letting the car do the navigating/transporting/etc. A semi pulled out in front of him and the Tesla ran underneath the trailer, decapitating not only the car but the driver as well. Witnesses said they saw the Tesla driver going by at a high rate of speed (compared to all of the other traffic) and the sole occupant obviously fiddling with his Iphone, computer or whatever. Accident investigators determined that the Tesla failed to brake because the side of the semi-trailer was approximately the color of the sky that day. It simply didn't recognize any obstacle in the way.
Wonder what was done to contain the toxic runoff from using 32K gallons of water on this green car fire. Bet I know the answer to that. Not a darn thing. The most problematic toxin from that situation is using water on lithium can create hydrofluoric acid, which is so strong it can dissolve glass.
In this day of information, we are always hearing of people in distress because of war, famine and disaster, yet way more people die every year because of automotive crashes. Twenty years ago if someone told me that my phone would be as if not more capable than my now old desk top computer, I would have wondered.Think of one brain controlling the traffic in a major city a opposed to a few million minds and perspectives driving along individually. The proof is in the pudding and will be in the statistics, as people get used to getting on board and moving from A to B by way of pushing a few buttons, if owning a vehicle at all. Interesting will be the interaction of driver and driverless vehicles and the legislation that follows. FYI I used my phone four times in this post to help me with my spelling, what dictionary, until the power is off for more than a bit.
jimg.allentown
Well-known Member
Are you really serious? Your ideas of benefits to driverless or self-driving cars are nothing more than pie in the sky.
Consider - after a long day at work, you get into your self driving car and go someplace 15 hours away while you sleep. How well would you sleep in a moving vehicle in daylight hours? Would you even be able to go to sleep under those conditions? And in a car seat? Not me, thank you.
Taking business calls while stuck in traffic? Really? Got all of your files and your client information right there as well? Personally, I don't see a self driving car as safe or functional as a commuter train or bus.
If you want to go golfing 15 hours away, TAKE THE BUS!!
If you want to conduct your business, do it in the office! Not in heavy traffic.
I suggest that you get that dreamy look out of your eyes and face some reality. These things are a very long way from reliable or dependable. For the foreseeable future, they will need to be monitored by a living, breathing HUMAN. Like it or not.
Consider - after a long day at work, you get into your self driving car and go someplace 15 hours away while you sleep. How well would you sleep in a moving vehicle in daylight hours? Would you even be able to go to sleep under those conditions? And in a car seat? Not me, thank you.
Taking business calls while stuck in traffic? Really? Got all of your files and your client information right there as well? Personally, I don't see a self driving car as safe or functional as a commuter train or bus.
If you want to go golfing 15 hours away, TAKE THE BUS!!
If you want to conduct your business, do it in the office! Not in heavy traffic.
I suggest that you get that dreamy look out of your eyes and face some reality. These things are a very long way from reliable or dependable. For the foreseeable future, they will need to be monitored by a living, breathing HUMAN. Like it or not.
jimg.allentown
Well-known Member
For what it is worth, the emphasis needs to return to safe driving and the notion that driving is a full time job that requires your full attention at all times.
fastfarmall
Well-known Member
Hey,, but i am curious who hit who ?
fastfarmall
Well-known Member
It could of been a Werner truck,from Omaha, it could easily happen !
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
I remember reading about that. The guy though he was smart fiddling rather than paying attention to what the car was doing.
Carlmac 369
Member
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
Oh man, that's a dandy.
Jon has it right. You are supposed to be behind steering wheel, attentive and ready to take control should the computer system malfunction. It's not designed for old mom and dad who can't drive anymore. It's not designed for someone who's tired to get behind the wheel and take a 15 hour drive. It's not meant to take you to the bar so you can drink. Or for your teenager to catch a nap on the way to school in the morning. It's designed to take the human error out of driving. No more following too close. No more unsafe passing.
Rick
Rick
1948CaseVAI
Well-known Member
I don't have the patience to read the whole thread so apologies if someone already has pointed out that the auto pilot was NOT in use at the time so this was caused by a driver who failed to really drive.
Self driving cars...... rely on short range radar, cameras and gps mapping.
SO>.... when its foggy, or raining, or the strips are gone, or a million other problems..... its not going to work well. They highway departments are now required to "stripe all detours" well just for this problem, but how many city and county roads have the stripes worn off. Even water on the road can high marks and lanes. mud and dirt on the camera lens, or a bug, minor accidents to the grill area will point a sensor the wrong way.... A simi truck turns in front of you and the trailer is painted a light grey and matches the horizon perfectly.. so only the short range radar realized you in trouble....much too late (florida accident)
SO if you think about HOW the technology works, and how and what can keep it from working.... You would understand its very very limit by a lot of factors and you best be sitting there with you hands on the wheel ready to correct or take over. Unfortunately the technology only makes us lazy and not pay attention.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Some info here that some are unaware of .
Auto pilot is currently available as an option . It sort of drives the car but requires driver intervention .
Self Drive is not available for another month or two and only for Select Beta Test drivers .
The crashed Tesla piloted by Bubba and Billy Bob , here hold my beer . It was not even optioned with the Auto Pilot and the Self Drive is not a available to anyone yet.
The crash owner and passenger had no idea of what his new Tesla was capable of not its limitations .
Shallow end of the gene pool .
Carlmac 369
Member
Why let facts get in the way of an opinionated rant though?
CenTex Farmall
Well-known Member
One thing I noticed about the various self-driving efforts is that they seem to lack redundancy. I flew airliners with actual autopilots and we had redundancy built into just about every system.
Autopilots have been in aircraft for decades and the components are thoroughly engineered and tested. The Air Force modified an aircraft to where it would operate itself fully from takeoff to landing in 1947. The ability has been around for decades.
Still, the FAA sees fit to require two pilots and two sets of controls in all passenger jet and big cargo operations. The equipment can and does still have failures although it works like it should 95% of the time. Outright hard failures are easy to deal with. You just take over. What gets you is when it is operating but in a degraded condition and you've become complacent because it works 95% of the time.
What we're seeing in the self driving cars is that complacency where people trust the system too much and quit monitoring it. When the system fails or gets into something it can't handle and turns it over to the human, the distracted human is already behind the curve and it takes several seconds to asess the situation and decide what to do. Being that cars operate in close proximity to a number of immovable objects make for a deadly recipe. At 50 mph you're moving at 73 feet per second. 73 feet is more than enough distance to cross into oncoming traffic or tangle with a bridge pier, culvert or telephone pole.
Ironically, the more people are just riding in their cars, the worse their driving skills will get. Especially younger new drivers without much experience. So in the bad situations the driving computer is going to hand control over to the rusty human driver.
I find it disturbing that it took a tanker full of water to put the fire out. In that neighborhood they had fire hydrants. Not good news for rural VFD's. Not any talk of what type of haz-mat problems such as residual chemical contamination and inhalation hazards.
Autopilots have been in aircraft for decades and the components are thoroughly engineered and tested. The Air Force modified an aircraft to where it would operate itself fully from takeoff to landing in 1947. The ability has been around for decades.
Still, the FAA sees fit to require two pilots and two sets of controls in all passenger jet and big cargo operations. The equipment can and does still have failures although it works like it should 95% of the time. Outright hard failures are easy to deal with. You just take over. What gets you is when it is operating but in a degraded condition and you've become complacent because it works 95% of the time.
What we're seeing in the self driving cars is that complacency where people trust the system too much and quit monitoring it. When the system fails or gets into something it can't handle and turns it over to the human, the distracted human is already behind the curve and it takes several seconds to asess the situation and decide what to do. Being that cars operate in close proximity to a number of immovable objects make for a deadly recipe. At 50 mph you're moving at 73 feet per second. 73 feet is more than enough distance to cross into oncoming traffic or tangle with a bridge pier, culvert or telephone pole.
Ironically, the more people are just riding in their cars, the worse their driving skills will get. Especially younger new drivers without much experience. So in the bad situations the driving computer is going to hand control over to the rusty human driver.
I find it disturbing that it took a tanker full of water to put the fire out. In that neighborhood they had fire hydrants. Not good news for rural VFD's. Not any talk of what type of haz-mat problems such as residual chemical contamination and inhalation hazards.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Wow , why are we so high over the runway , where did that extra airspeed come from,,,,,, better reduce power .
Oh Crap , I cant see anything out the windscreen .
Where did our airspeed go , we lost lift , the engines are idled down and will take a few seconds to spool up . Why are we so close to the end of the runway,
we havent touched down yet and slowed down to a jogging pace .
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
First rule to remember around an incident scene . Stay uphill and upwind .
2nd rule to remember . All incidences will all eventually look after themselves . Fires will burn themselves out ,
floods will drain themselves etc .
CenTex Farmall
Well-known Member
Perfect landings? Hah, no!........maybe one or two.
To answer your question, neither!, because you're not going to be doing an approach when there's a thunderstorm at or too near
the airport due to the potential for windshear events due to microbursts. While they do have ground based equipment now that can
see and detect wind shear the real plan is to avoid those situations in the first place. The ground based detection simply gives
you time to break off the approach before you get there.
If you do get into something like that (we practised in the sim and there is an escape manuever), the autopilot will kick off
anyway once things really get moving around. The autopilot is limited by its programming for absolute amounts of pitch and roll
as well as having rate of change limits. Basically the autopilot is not allowed by the programming to make rapid changes.
Windshear will generally produce large changes in airspeed and pitch and the autopilot, due to its limitations, will get so far
away from the current set points that it can't correct fast enough and says I'm done and gives the pilots control. This can
happen in turbulent cloud tops too.
When it kicks off in cloud tops a non-chalant lady says autopilot...autopilot and now you get to fly for a bit. During
approach, as part of the GPWS (or EGPWS) a non-chalant guy says Caution...Windshear (increasing performance, you've hit the
headwind part of a microburst) or WINDSHEAR...WINDSHEAR...WINDSHEAR and some red lights (decreasing performane, you've hit the
tailwind part of a microburst; a considerably less desirable situation). Now it has been a while and things get fuzzy, but the
autopilot may not always kick off during an increasing performance event depending on how dynamic things get.
An autopilot is a very useful tool but a tool nonetheless and has to be used for the right situations. The human mind has the
ability to see down the road and be proactive when situations are developing whereas automation is always reacting because
inputs have already happened.
To answer your question, neither!, because you're not going to be doing an approach when there's a thunderstorm at or too near
the airport due to the potential for windshear events due to microbursts. While they do have ground based equipment now that can
see and detect wind shear the real plan is to avoid those situations in the first place. The ground based detection simply gives
you time to break off the approach before you get there.
If you do get into something like that (we practised in the sim and there is an escape manuever), the autopilot will kick off
anyway once things really get moving around. The autopilot is limited by its programming for absolute amounts of pitch and roll
as well as having rate of change limits. Basically the autopilot is not allowed by the programming to make rapid changes.
Windshear will generally produce large changes in airspeed and pitch and the autopilot, due to its limitations, will get so far
away from the current set points that it can't correct fast enough and says I'm done and gives the pilots control. This can
happen in turbulent cloud tops too.
When it kicks off in cloud tops a non-chalant lady says autopilot...autopilot and now you get to fly for a bit. During
approach, as part of the GPWS (or EGPWS) a non-chalant guy says Caution...Windshear (increasing performance, you've hit the
headwind part of a microburst) or WINDSHEAR...WINDSHEAR...WINDSHEAR and some red lights (decreasing performane, you've hit the
tailwind part of a microburst; a considerably less desirable situation). Now it has been a while and things get fuzzy, but the
autopilot may not always kick off during an increasing performance event depending on how dynamic things get.
An autopilot is a very useful tool but a tool nonetheless and has to be used for the right situations. The human mind has the
ability to see down the road and be proactive when situations are developing whereas automation is always reacting because
inputs have already happened.
Mike Henry
Member
great granddad was using horse and wagon to haul gravel from pit to new michigan hiway 66 between stanton and edmore. Met my soon to be great grandma at a diner at lunch one day. Asked her to dance on saturday night. She worked that morning at the diner, gr. granddad hauled some gravel that day from pit to spot on the road. Went to the dance spent to much time before starting home. Both folks fell asleep and when horses got to corner to pit auto piloted to the pit to get reloaded. Folks woke 3 hrs later setting in the pit. Got gr. grandma home and her dad was waiting with shotgun. They got married 3 weeks later to be sure all would be ok. That marriage lasted 53 yrs before she gave up her life to get away from the onery old buzzard that never cared about anything but his self. But even horses as driver assist vehicles need attenchen sometimes.
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