Snow Removal Church parking lot

bcny

Member
Local church has asked me for advice about removing snow at their church.
The parking lot is paved asphalt, 1.9 acres, 113 parking spaces. Has 12 curbed
islands for lights and shrubs. The perimeter is curbed and maybe 60% is just
lawn grass beyond. There are two entries to two different streets.

What they currently do is contract the work. I have noticed that whomever they
use gets right on the job after snow. That is important. However they are spending
about $5k per year for this service. They said so far there have been 5 plow jobs.
It is close to $1000/ plow event. They use a truck and push the snow into piles
and around the perimeter. Church people do the hand cleanup and salting.

They were asking me what type of tractor. They like idea of tractor with bucket. I guess
with bucket they expect they can actually remove the snow-dump it over the curbed perimeter
onto the grass.
I remarked that many people use a loader tractor with rear blade. Should the blade and bucket
have rubber edges?
I didn't get much of a response about what if they found someone to do it for 1/2 that price...
I guess they want to explore a do it yourself solution.
Please chime in with suggestions and experience.
 
If no bids come in for less that's must be a good price. A large tractor with loader will take twice as long as plows on a truck and the smaller the rig the longer that will be. Do they have someone in mind to run it and are they experienced enough to get the job done without wrecking stuff? If they buy an older tractor do they have someone who can keep it running? If they buy new it will take many years to pay for it plus the cost of driving and servicing it. I would suggest taking bids and picking a good one.
 
Well how big of a congregation ? I'm betting on any given Sunday there are several pick ups show up. Some may even own a snow plow ? Tell them to show up early and do a good deed !
When my parents Church was doing an appliance and furniture donations and giving to the needy they volunteered to help. Well they were in their late 70's then ! Ended up they were the only ones doing the work. Once when they were complaining ( rightfully so ) about hurting and this and that of people not even helping who were getting this stuff. I began to lecture or enlighten them about how on any given Sunday all the pick up trucks out in the parking lot of this very large Church that there was no reason Mom and Dad in their 70's should be the only ones lugging this stuff around ! It took awhile but I think they got my point. Then that was the end of that program.
 
Are they paying $5000 for a yearly contract or $1000 per push? I'd think $1000 per plow on that lot is kind of high, at least it would be here.

If the church doesn't have other uses for a loader tractor, I'd just buy an old plow truck. It's faster and you get a heated cab. You should be able to find something decent for a few thousand. Of course there are occasional repairs and if it does break down, your lot doesn't get plowed.

When you hire it out, it gets done. The company doing it should have a backup plan in case of breakdowns...
 
This man's opinion is that they should continue to let the job out for bid. Owning the equipment means ongoing maintenance and counting on volunteer labor, which is less reliable.
 
Doing the work based on snow events might find the church not getting prompt service in terms of the cleanup. Those with season contracts tend to get cleaned up first after a snow. I question whether a small organization can do similar work for the same money even if in theory that the "model" says that you can. Insurance, repairs, fuel are some considerations that get rolled into a contract. Retiree's may not be available as many head south during the winter. Can somebody from the congregation be there right after the snowfall and will they be expected to do the hand work? Be thorough in your study on this.
 
Around these parts that's a sky high price for that lot and zero hand work. We have a lot for close to 200 and can get it plowed and the sidewalks ckeaned for half that much. My advice is to put it out for bid before you go shopping for a DIY solution. A tractor or truck sitting around to do that job will soon be more of a nuisance than anything else due to sitting around and neglect, unless you have inside storage and a member willing to take it upon himself to maintain it.
 
You could buy a heck of a good used plow for $5,000. Then have mounting brackets for the trucks of two members who will come and do the job as needed with the plow being kept in a locked shed on church grounds. The two can talk and decide who will plow each time there is a snow event.

For their time and expense, maybe they could also use the plow at their residence as needed, AFTER the parking lot is done?

If one person moves/dies/leaves the church, then it will be time to find another person in the congregation who has a truck and would be willing to accept the responsibility.

I still like the idea of the church buying its own dedicated plow truck, but having the truck sit so much of the time would be very bad. Would be better to rely on trucks that are used regularly and kept in good working condition. My $0.02
 
Where are you located? If in NY whereabouts? What is your average winter snowfall per winter? How many times has the contractor plowed per season on average over the last 10 years? I was in the snow plowing business for 35+ years. Does your church have any insurance requirements for this contract ? I plowed for a church for approx. 30 years, ending a couple years after the church disbanded and the building was leased. I did the sidewalks , but was able to do most of the sidewalk with the truck. and shoveled the rest.In the beginning church members were going to do the sidewalk and they purchased a new snowblower. After a couple years they werent getting it done so I took over the sidewalks. As far as suggestions if you plan on using a tractor with a loader you should plan on a 4wd tractor with a cab and heat. You could also get a snow pusher to go on the loader. You might be able to rent or lease a machine for the winter.The other option is a plow truck. As mentioned maybe some church member with a plow truck would be willing to do it . The weak link in the chain will be the labor. If you yourself are going to do it or other volunteers you will need to be sure that everyone is traineed to properly operate the equipment. Also everyone needs to be on the same page as to how to plow the lot. (where/where not to push/ pile snow etc.} Often volunteers can lose interest and become unreliable, and unskilled operators can tear up equipment and damage curbs grass etc. Post back with more details if you want . Good luck.
 
Around here, farmers can no longer bid to do such snow removal jobs unless they carry a special insurance coverage for the liability. Commercial snow removal operators have to carry this coverage, but farmers were just going out with tractors with loaders and snow blowers making a few extra $$, and not carrying any additional coverage. So now the insurance companies have notified business that they will be held liable for any slip and fall claims if they dont have a snow removal company that has coverage to do the snow removal. Most landscaping companies and construction companies insurance already covers them, but farm policies dont cover farmers out doing snow removal. The extra cost sucks the profit out of the work for farmers. Snow removal and salting on private property that the public uses like store parking lots, has become very expensive for the stores
 
We have gravel crushed rock parking lot and there are 2 options they use. If a real big fall there are 3 farmers that do it with tractor or skid steer. if smaller the custodian of the church has to do it as they get well paid(full time wage) and need something to do. Church bought a larger ride on mower with a snow blower just for that purpose. They have half the lot grass and also the grave yard so it was a no brainer to buy a little bigger ride on.
Not sure why church people have such a problem doing work for the church for free but I guess if the preacher is paid the custodian is paid everybody else should be as well. We don't have paid preachers so I don't know. I know a neighboring church could not get any members to come help or donate equipment to do a little clean up of an old house foundation on there lot. our church members who were just friends of the guy in charge (me included) were the only ones that showed up to help.
 
It takes a good and consensus operator to avoid damaging the curbs and landscaping. Organizations like churches are always managed by a board of some sort and can change operations with board membership. That is a good sized parking lot. The $1000.00 gets you an operator, equipment and damage insurance. Make sure you price everything out. A tractor can damage a parking lot pretty easily.
 
I think it might take 4 hours to clear the lot with compact tractor loader/back blade.
Mention of skid steer. Would a skid steer with snow bucket be better than tractor/loader bucket/back blade?
Are chains required on a 4wd tractor (using loader bucket and back blade)? How about the skid steer.
In the summer, if they drove the skid steer on the grass, I suppose they would tear up the grass?

They said not so enthused about snow plowing pickup truck, I guess because they think they can't remove the snow like they would want.
Plus DMV registration and insurance. However, if I were driving the snow plow truck I think I could fix most of the problems,
but it would take more time. Pull snow away, then push it to a corner. However, I am not volunteering for 3 in the morning
blizzard time snow plowing. I already use my tractor to mow their 2 acre field- in the summer, at time of my choosing.

I can see the merit in the "cut a deal with a church member" strategy, let him attach the churches snow plow to
his truck, handle the church, then go out and use it to make some money.

While the contract service does a quick job, it still leaves a lot of car stalls at least partially blocked with snow.
This is why I think they want to pick-up the snow and dump it on the grass areas. Plus the average 5000 dollar per year expense.
Long Island NY, 5 to 6 snows per year. In the last 10 years the deepest single snow was 27 inches. The church looked like it
had a snow wall built around it after plowing.

All the other questions about insurance and liability, I don't know.
Lots of ways to go, I will discuss with them, but they asked me about tractor or Bobcat idea.

The more I think about it, they should just keep paying contractor.
Thanks
 
Skid steers are good machines for snow work up to a point. For Your situation a decent size skid steer would work. You cant see much behind you with a skid steer, I would recomend a back-up camera As I mentioned you may want a snow pusher attachment for either a tractor or skid steer.They are wider than a loader bucket and much faster as they are open on the bottom and you dont lose time dumping the bucket.Most newer loaders and skid steers have quick-attach feature so you can switch the attachments easily. You shouldnt need chains on a skid steer or 4wd tractor with ag tires.If you get turf tires you may need chains. A skid steer will tear up grass if you do much sharp turning. The reason I asked about insurance is because liability for snow removal has become very expensive due to slip and fall claims. Your contractor probably has a pretty high insurance bill between liability and workers comp insurance. Many times commercial plowing contracts stipulate a certain amount of insurance and the contractor has to provide proof of meeting the insurance requirements. You are in an area that doesnt get a lot of snow but also a high cost of living area which affects the cost of the plowing. As mentioned you could always put it out for bid and try to get the word out so you get several bids. As I mentioned before, they could look into renting a machine for the winter instead of buying one. That way they wouldnt have such a big investment if it didnt work out. Where on LI ? I had relatives there at one time . I am in central NY south of Syracuse. We average 130-140" snowfall per winter, although this one has bee light on snowfall till this month.
 
WE went through this at the tire store I used to work for. It was bid by the year. The snow was plowed four times in two years. Then we let the job per snow. Small lot easy push we paid 30.00 a snow after that,with the understanding that we opened ar 7:30 and the snow needed to be gone when we got there. At the end of snow season we kicked in a small bonus for a good job. He was thrilled, and we saved a lot of money. win win. Be sure you offer to pay more if you get a big snow, around here 8 inches and up would qualify.
 
"Not sure why church people have such a problem doing work for the church for free"

You and me both brother! People want to drop a bit in the plate and call it good. 40 years ago we had more people show up to do work at the church when it had 25 members than we do now with 400 (pre nnalert) attendance.
 
Considering that they have a contractor that is getting the job done with appropriate insurance and equipment, it seems like they should consider staying with that contractor.

First thing that comes to my mind is the reliability factor. Volunteer labor that has to come in during the wee hours may not be a reliable alternative. Would you want to volunteer to come in at 2:00 am to plow the parking lot? Apparently, the contractor has been doing that.

Next thing is equipment. I know several people around here that simply gave up plowing altogether quoting problems like maintenance on equipment, breakdowns, and the jobs just beating their equipment to death.

Expecting all of this to happen on a volunteer basis, buying equipment, and paying for insurance along with any other incidental expenses like fuel and maintenance, a better alternative might be to have an extra collection to help defray the cost of snow removal.
 
"While the contract service does a quick job, it still leaves a lot of car stalls at least partially blocked with snow.
This is why I think they want to pick-up the snow and dump it on the grass areas".

Some snow removal contractors use snow plow pickups and smaller equipment to clear the large areas quickly. Then, as time allows, they come back later in the day with a large articulated pay-loader to push the smaller piles into the designated storage areas and pile it up high to leave room for more snow from future storms. The loader travels from customer to customer doing the final cleanup at each site.

If snow must be moved off-site, dump trucks and a large snow blower will work well for final cleanup.
 
My parish has been streaming Sunday services for the last year. Many other parishes and denominations are been doing the same thing. Attend if you can, but stay home and stream the service if the weather is unsafe or you are ill.
 
My only comment, no matter what you use, with that much curbing and different operators, something is going to get broken. And probably more than once. 1 unit and one breakdown = snow covered lot in the morning.
 

Keep contracting it out.

If you buy equipment then you will either have people fighting over who gets to run, or not run it, or fighting over having to do it at all.

Johnny Novice will want to do it and manage to break something everytime.

Billy Expert will have scheduled time out of his busy schedule to take his turn and come in to do it to find Stewie Toomuchtimeonhands doing it, thus wasting his trip in.

Frankie Craftsman will try to maintain the equipment will get exhausted fixing stupid things broken by Johnny Novice.

Billy Expert will get fed up doing the job at all listening to unsolicited advice from Eddie Usedtodoitthiswayyearsago on how he's doing the job wrong.
 
The church where I was the building and grounds contracted a company with skidloaders for $125/hr for less then 3 ins of snow. Over 3 ins of snow, it was 175 dollars/hr. The church was on the north side of town with an open area to the north so a normal 3 inches turn into 3 to 4 ft drifts in the parking lot. Average bill was $375 per snow.

We hired a local construction co that has payloaders with 14-16 ft snow pushing blades on the front. They charge $193/hour and it takes them less than an hour to clean the lot.
 

I see the equipment either being destroyed, stolen, blownup, or turned over.

The operator being injured or killed.


Hope they have really good insurance.
 

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