OT for John T Dangerous load center

Geo-TH,In

Well-known Member
General Switch
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Load center has aluminum buss bars.
I think you can see the burnt places on the bus bar.
Electrician said it could have burn the place down.

I replaced it with square D, the only brand sold at the 3 supply houses in Terre Haute.

There was an old inspection tag inside meter base. The new load center was installed by a union electrician, work was permitted and passed inspection. New green tag inside meter base. Start to finish 2 hours to install.
That included time for disconnect, install inspection and power reconnect.

So John, how many other unsafe load center are out there? I think General switch is out of business.
George
 
George when I bought my house in 1997 it had a Federal Pacific 60 amp service. I finally upgraded in 2012 to 200 amp service as I am almost all electric now. Forced hot air furnace is fuel oil. When my father retired from the Air Force in 1969 he bought a brand new 12x65 house trailer to put on his hundred acres. I was grabbed out of bed in the middle of winter and my dad pulled the main breaker on the power pole. House was full of smoke the main panel in the house had loose lugs as well as all aluminum wiring. Good times! Moved into the drafty farm house in 1973. Tesla charging stations in the city of Oneonta N.Y. yesterday. My son drove his new Tesla up here from Atlanta in 2019 none of these stations were here. He pre planned his route and he didnt even carry a charging cord.

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My stepson is a journeyman electrician and was called to an apartment complex last week. A tenant saw smoke coming out of a panel and dialed 911; the fire department came and cut the wires to the meter, knocking the whole building off line. The box had a fried breaker, but because of the cut wires, Detroit Edison was not going to restore service without permits and inspection. In Michigan, you need a master electrician license to pull permits, so he walked away from the job. He said he could have made three grand replacing the panel. I told him to stop pharting around and get his master's license.
 
Morning Greg, you ask "So John, how many other unsafe load center are out there? "

Likely in my "opinion" as a retired power distribution design engineer who was well aware of problem you posted, I BET THERE ARE A TON OF THEM out there, how many ??? Now many were installed ?? lol How well maintained ??

Much of my work was in Commercial/Industrial power moreso then residential and small scale where I saw less problems, many of my plans and specs (where permissible by law) named Square D or GE as my preference. We were barred from specifying overly proprietary equipment but hey we did what we could. Our Bibles kept by our side at all times included the NEC and Square D and GE catalogs.........I had fun in those days I cant walk the walk any longer (codes change) but I still love to Talk the Talk

I advise homeowners (was used where I practiced) to "exercise" their breakers on a regular basis as well as check and tighten if/as necessary each and every Hot/Breaker as well as Neutral and Ground connections plus the main Neutral and Ground Buss Bars etc. Then check the Neutral connection to all readily available "Grounding Electrodes" (verify their integrity) and the Neutral ground BOND. My electricians may have complained about "extra" work, but hey it was a job for which they were well paid. I respected them as they did me and we learned from each other, great relationship where I learned the "practical" in addition to my theory.

Fun topic for us nerds engineers and electricians lol even if we bore the lay gents.

Best wishes, God Bless America

John T Free Dry camped near Lake Istokpoga West of Okeechobee (spelling??) but its a bit hottttttttttt whew
 
My brother in law had a Federal Pacific melt down in a mobile home. Nearly caused a fire. Charred a lot of wire ends. What a mess. I helped him replace. With SQ D QO. I would recommend anybody with those Federal Pacific breaker boxes keep a close eye on it and at a minimum have a smoke alarm directly above it. I arguement with our office manager it thought it was ok for the breaker box to make a hissing noise. I will only use SQ D QO.
 
John, I been called worse things than George! During my construction stint in my life I helped with installing electrical services for new construction. My boss took pride in his work. Also boiler installation . He was well rounded! Excavation, concrete, electrical , heating as well as landscaping. I went back helping him last year part time. Had a new young bull on the job I had no problem keeping up with him and Im 2 years away from 60!(
 
You made the right call replacing that, simply not worth risking keeping it in service. Federal Pacific are the worst panels I know of around here and I've made a decent amount of money replacing them. My understanding is several municipalities around St. Louis will not give a new homeowner an occupancy permit if the home has a Federal Pacific panel. Thank you for choosing IBEW, proud Local One member here.
 
John,
I was there snoopervising. A real treat to watch an electrician work. He had a cordless wire cutter that sliced the 4 0 aluminum like butter. Electrician also pulled the meter an torqued the lugs. I was surprised how much he tighten the lugs.

I've never had problems with square D and that's all I can buy in Terre Haute.

I asked Duke lineman why do I need about 15 ft of 4 0 aluminum wire and you have about 75 ft of what looks like 100 amp triplex aluminum connecting me to the transformer on the pole?
Answer. Because I can.

Thought you would be happy responding to electric post.
George
 
When I was doing insurance inspection, I was required to photograph and report any Federal Pacific box I came across.
 
Nasty piece of work there. I shudder. There appears to be more wrong than just some arc spots. Look at the bus bar closest to the bottom center of the pic. a crack looks to have near severed it in two. Jim
 
(quoted from post at 11:31:12 02/21/21)

I asked Duke lineman why do I need about 15 ft of 4 0 aluminum wire and you have about 75 ft of what looks like 100 amp triplex aluminum connecting me to the transformer on the pole?
Answer. Because I can.

Thought you would be happy responding to electric post.
George

I ran into that in SW Michigan, power company came out to connect new service to a 40 year old block building.
All new, meter socket and 200amp panel, had previous power on house meter.
Lineman said even tho the are providing service to a 200amp service, their engineer decides if they will provide transformer and wire to meter. So you might get 60amp, 100amp or 150 amp poer company equipment.
Just because the engineer has decided you will never be using 200amps.
 
Jim,
Pic doesn't show the there is almost a hole blown through where the 200 amp main connected to the buss.

The main breaker was designed wrong. Didn't make a solid connection.

I thought I just needed a new breaker, which wasn't available online and aftermarket breakers sold for more than a Squard D panel, main and 5 breakers


Once I learned it had aluminum buss it was a no brainier.

Instead of getting an estimate I called the company the electrician works for. Request he do the work. His boss said I buy the parts and he'll charge me for labor and permit.

I like cost plus contracts. 2 hours labor and permit $242.

Goes to show, sometimes it's who you know is better than what you know.
George
 
(quoted from post at 08:43:46 02/21/21) My stepson is a journeyman electrician and was called to an apartment complex last week. A tenant saw smoke coming out of a panel and dialed 911; the fire department came and cut the wires to the meter, knocking the whole building off line. The box had a fried breaker, but because of the cut wires, Detroit Edison was not going to restore service without permits and inspection. In Michigan, you need a master electrician license to pull permits, so he walked away from the job. He said he could have made three grand replacing the panel. I told him to stop pharting around and get his master's license.

Mark, I studied to take the exams 20 some years ago along with the plumbers. All the journeyman concepts I could understand from prior experience. The difference in the master electrician test is you had to know about how big electrical motors worked plus know more about the big industrial switch gears and transformers and I didn't really have the experience to totally understand the motor part but doable if I had someone to spend a little time explaining it.
 
> Mark, I studied to take the exams 20 some years ago along with the plumbers. All the journeyman concepts I could understand from prior experience. The difference in the master electrician test is you had to know about how big electrical motors worked plus know more about the big industrial switch gears and transformers and I didn't really have the experience to totally understand the motor part but doable if I had someone to spend a little time explaining it.

I don't think the test is my son's biggest hurdle; he's taken a prep course and a lot of the stuff (e.g three phase) I can help him study. He and the master electrician he worked for for many years had a falling-out, and supposedly his old boss won't sign off on his hours. I keep telling him to go make nice with the guy, but he doesn't want his master's license bad enough to humble himself.
 
> For annoying contractors that won't sign off on hours you can use W2 forms.

I think his old boss was paying him under the table. Which is at the root of the problem: Stepson got injured on the job and had to go to the hospital. He had no insurance and the state went after his old boss for the emergency room bill. They're both in the wrong, but I think he needs to eat a little humble pie.
 
(quoted from post at 12:02:21 02/21/21) Nasty piece of work there. I shudder. There appears to be more wrong than just some arc spots. Look at the bus bar closest to the bottom center of the pic. a crack looks to have near severed it in two. Jim

Inline with first breaker?
Looks looks like casting seam mold flash to me.
 
Just because it's aluminum doesn't necessarily mean it would burn the place down. Like aluminum wire it won't handle as heavy a work load but if the load was kept to it's limit it would be alright. A lot of stuff like that has lasted for many decades without a problem.
 
(quoted from post at 19:04:30 02/21/21) Just because it's aluminum doesn't necessarily mean it would burn the place down. Like aluminum wire it won't handle as heavy a work load but if the load was kept to it's limit it would be alright. A lot of stuff like that has lasted for many decades without a problem.
erhaps a little bit of sensationalism. Not one wants the failure, but the fire does have to get out of the metal box to burn the house down.
 
(quoted from post at 11:25:11 02/21/21) > Mark, I studied to take the exams 20 some years ago along with the plumbers. All the journeyman concepts I could understand from prior experience. The difference in the master electrician test is you had to know about how big electrical motors worked plus know more about the big industrial switch gears and transformers and I didn't really have the experience to totally understand the motor part but doable if I had someone to spend a little time explaining it.

I don't think the test is my son's biggest hurdle; he's taken a prep course and a lot of the stuff (e.g three phase) I can help him study. He and the master electrician he worked for for many years had a falling-out, and supposedly his old boss won't sign off on his hours. I keep telling him to go make nice with the guy, but he doesn't want his master's license bad enough to humble himself.

There is a work around. The test is the same for everybody. It is just a matter of getting to take it.

My town and any towns bigger all have a electrician and plumbing boards usually run by the the old guys who have been in the business in town and want to protect their business by keeping their own employees from going out on their own after getting all that training from them. So they have all these experience requirements, etc. However they can't stop someone who already has a master's license from getting a license in the city.

The work around is to start calling the city administrators/clerks of the small towns in your area that don't have boards. He can ask them if they will sponsor him for the exam. They are always looking for more people to work their area. I found one who would sponsor me and all I had to do was pay the bux for the test.

I grew up doing that stuff and my cousin took over the family business. He could talk and do anything electrical and plumbing except you put a written test in front of him and then that knowledge goes away. He couldn't pass the EPA test which is fairly simple so he had a friend getting refrigerant for him. I was chairman of our planning commission back then and dealing with those guys anyway. So I was going to take the tests so he could work under my license. I was just taking online practice tests and figured out I needed help with electric motors and the 3 phase. Then he had a heart attack at 42 and he cut back from taking anything other than the small town repairs on a part time basis. So I didn't take them. I had looked into prep courses till he had his attack. As an aside, I took the prep courses for the CPA exam and 2 bar exams and they made all the difference for tying everything together while also taking practice exams. The courses help me pass the exams on the first try for each. Who knows I may still do it some day just to say I did it.
 
> There is a work around. The test is the same for everybody. It is just a matter of getting to take it.

bc, thanks for your suggestion, but the Michigan license application is fairly explicit in what is required to document an applicant's experience:

"Applicant must provide notarized documentation from present and former employers verifying the attainment of 4,000 hours in not less than 2 years of practical experience under the direct supervision of a master electrician, subsequent to initial journeyman issue date. Applicant must provide notarized documentation from present and former employers verifying the attainment of 4,000 hours in not less than 2 years of practical experience under the direct supervision of a master electrician, subsequent to initial journeyman issue date."

I suppose the state might make an exception if an applicant can prove they worked for a master who has since died, but I don't see where there's any provision for a local board to waive the requirement for documented experience.
 

OK. I was suggesting going to a small town who don't have a board to get sponsored.

If he doesn't need municipal sponsorship then I supposed one option is apply to the state and/or local board listing his experience and hours and advise the board that the master refuses to sign. Then ask for a waiver which may prompt an investigation by the board of the master refuser. These state boards all operate under the same rules such as CPAs and they have their exceptions and work arounds.

Another option if he don't mind burning his bridge with the master is to ask to sign off since they both know he worked the hours. When he says no, then your son can advise him he will take it up with the State wage and hour division and the Fed DOL. I know our state will jump right on it when they find someone is paying under the table and avoiding payroll taxes and unemployment taxes. That will cost the master big time to pay the back taxes plus interest and penalties. If the master pulls the self employed subcontractor routine on his son then the master should have given him a 1099 which will be evidence of wrong doing by the master. I represented a chain of Mexican restaurants in a big federal lawsuit by the Dept. of Labor. Only took one illegal disgruntled employee to say they had to work 50 to 60 hours a week without overtime to get an investigator in the restaurant where more of them opened up. That snowballed. The DOL at the time 10 years ago refused to report or turn any of the employees over to immigration. The DOL didn't get the IRS involved either. Go figure.

Of course in all this, the more documentation your son has the better. A list of jobs, witness statements from people who saw him work, coworkers, family, people who saw him drive a company vehicle, etc. He will need some support as you know.
 
> Another option if he don't mind burning his bridge with the master is to ask to sign off since they both know he worked the hours. When he says no, then your son can advise him he will take it up with the State wage and hour division and the Fed DOL. I know our state will jump right on it when they find someone is paying under the table and avoiding payroll taxes and unemployment taxes. That will cost the master big time to pay the back taxes plus interest and penalties. If the master pulls the self employed subcontractor routine on his son then the master should have given him a 1099 which will be evidence of wrong doing by the master.

He already burned that bridge when he got injured on the job and his boss had to pay up because he wasn't insured. I keep telling him to just write up a document to sign and take it to his old boss and see what he says. I think I want him to get his masters ticket worse than he does. Now he has his younger brother working for him, and of course if his brother wants to go for his own license none of those hours will count. So I'll put a bug in his brother's ear letting him know what the deal is.
 

A lot of people don't like to raise the issue with the State cause they are worried about the IRS coming back on them. Have never seen that happen as the feds are busy with their own thing. Dealt with countless paid under the table situations that end up in court over not being able to get a income withholding order for child support. If the employer doesn't withhold for support then he gets drug into court and can be assessed the withholding plus another 50% penalty or be held in contempt. Same kind of deal with all these common law marriages with joint returns that ends with a split up. Life just goes on for everyone and none get called onto the IRS's carpet. Guess they have bigger fish to fry. Suppose there can be a first time but seems like they want the employer and treat the employees as victims.
 

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