Diesel run a way

I didn't want to hi jack Super99s thread about the death caused from a run a way engine. Growing up we never had a diesel engine, only gas engines so I'm not used to this but have heard of it. Seems like from reading the other posts it might be more likely to happen on newly rebuilt engines. What causes these engines to run a way??? Educate me on this subject.

I'm not sure of the cause but it seems to be more common on Detroits.

Any oil in the cylinder will burn, it will suck in as much air as needed to support the combustion.

There are a number of things that can cause a diesel engine to "run away". In general runaways happen when fuel enters the combustion chamber and can't be shut off. It could be entering via the injectors, or it could be ingested through the intake. A common example of fuel ingestion through the intake is if someone cleans an oil bath air cleaner with gasoline or solvent and doesn't get it dry afterwards.

My dad and his crew experienced a runaway D7 Cat engine nearly fifty years ago after they overhauled it. My dad wasn't happy with how he thought it was pulling and decided to mess with the injection pump rack while it was running. This turned out to be a colossally bad idea, as the rack became unhooked and all four injectors screwed full on. This tractor didn't have a functioning fuel shutoff and they always stalled it to kill the engine. Dumping the clutch with the transmission in gear simply blew the clutch out. At this point they figured the engine, which normally ran around 1100 rpm, was turning over 7000 rpm. After a couple of very harrowing minutes, they managed to pinch off the fuel line and kill the engine. The motor was pretty much trashed; Dad found a old irrigation pump motor to replace it. That dozer is now owned by the son of one of the men that was there that day, and he still uses it.

Most likely the governor mechanism was improperly assembled or adjusted or just stuck. Very little room for error in those roosa masters.

On your typical average everyday turborcharged 4-cycle diesel engine, a runaway is often caused by a bearing failure in the turbocharger.

Pressurized oil is sprayed into the compressor side of the turbocharger, which then thrashes it into a fine mist and feeds it to the cylinders, causing the engine to run faster. The faster it runs the more oil is sprayed in, causing the engine to run even faster. Now you have a runaway.

Eventually the engine runs out of oil, and you know what happens then.

Diesel engines do not have a way to throttle the air intake like a gas engine. RPM is controlled by the amount of fuel being injected by the injector pump, but since the fuel is not being supplied by the injector pump in this situation, there is no way to control the speed of the engine.

The only way to stop the engine is to get to the air intake and plug it however you can before the engine runs out of oil. I've heard of people stuffing their shirts, coats, etc. into the air intake, and sometimes the engine even ingests them.

A Detroit runaway is a whole different animal. This is usually caused by stuck injectors supplying full fuel to the engine causing it to run at well over rated RPM. In this case the engine just beats itself to death instead of running out of oil. Many Detroits have an emergency flapper in the intake for just such an occasion.

I over adjusted the rack controlling the governor on a 453 Detroit once and it ran away.the emergency shutoff quickly closed the intake and killed the engine.it was only a few seconds but scary anyway.

also any old diesel that has not been started in a long time may have the injector pump rack rusted in an open position--its always recommended to have a means of shutting off the air supply--usually at the air filter with a board or something to block the air

On some old AC engines too long of a bolt in one hole would cause the rack to stick.

On two strike Detroits, lugging them down and stalling one under a load could cause them to bevspun over backwards, and start running in reverse. In that instance they would pull oil past the rings and burn it. The rack could also stick and cause it to run away in the normal rotational direction.

Pretty much any engine with a turbo can begin feeding off oil from the oil pan if the seals on the cold side of the turbo go bad.

Essentially, anything that can mechanically stick the fuel control device (governor, rack, etc), or anything that allows an uncontrolled fuel source to enter the intake can cause a run away.

I've often wondered that, too.

In 1958, when I was on Taiwan, we had a couple of 50kw diesel generators powering our mess tent. One evening during chow one of them went berserk. It accelerated until it was screaming, with an entire mess tent full of Marines watching. No one was about to go near it. Something finally broke internally and it self-destructed.

I never did hear what had happened to it.

Another cause;

A diesel engine manages RPM by controlling fuel not air so it does not have a throttle plate like a gasoline engine.
Airflow to the intake is basically an uncontrolled hole that is able to suck in any available fuel present in the air.

Consider a natural gas leak at a facility, if a truck with a diesel engine not equipped with a manual air shutdown was to drive onto the site the engine would be capable of running uncontrollably off the unmetered fuel, regardless of what the ignition switch or governor tries to do it in regards to controlling RPM or shutting it down.

We had a old 950 David Brown tractor that we used to plough with, and sometimes at the end of the row when you raised the plough the governor would stick open and the tractor would start to runaway. All I could do was pull the fuel shut off, and close the throttle down to idle. And once the engine had slowed to almost stopping, shove the shity off back in and let her have some more fuel. Sometimes it would start to runaway again, but most times it would return to idle, and I would go back to work. Maybe it wouldn’t runaway again that day, or maybe the next time you raised the plough, just never knew. I traded it in on a new IH 584 in 1984, the dealer allowed me $1,000.00 for it

Where I used to work we had a well worn Michigan loader with a 3-71 Detroit,first thing you checked out was make sure the emergency stop was working. Could also jam the bucket into a materials pile to choke it down.

as said either impropely adjusted pump or extra fuel being sucked into the intake. that is why all diesel engines in the oilpatch must have rigsavers installed on the intake. includes all rig engines and diesel vehicles on site. if you have gas to surface these engines will suck it in and run away. on the rig they are air operated and are functioned tested on a regular basis. that is why you must be prepared and have a way to kill the engine when you are doing a first start up. you must be able to kill the air entering the engine. on that cat even if they would have took their jacket and wrapped it around the air cleaner would have prevented a blown engine. mechanic's are taught this in the class room also. be surprised at how many people dont know what to do in this situation. as i said have a piece of plywood or what ever ready to cover the intake. even this 560 i just got this fall on first start up i took the air cleaner top of and was all prepared . you dont know the pump is like inside sitting for 30 years. i had a wd6 many years ago that sat for a long time when i started it it ran away, but i just killed it , so yes be prepared because that is big danger!

I don't know how it occurs, but I read that this is a problem with high milage worn Detroit diesel engines.

A local man was killed about 25 years ago when a HD-11 Allis crawler engine ran away and the flywheel came apart..I was at the sale where they sold it and it didnt bring much...

Being around tractor pulling for many years I have seen lots of stuck plungers and racks over the years and the guillotine air shut off has saved them from coming apart.Just about 100% of them have been inline pumps...Fortunately the Bosch P7100 pump on my 1466 IH puller has never stuck open....I have honestly never seen a rotary pump stick open nor even a Detroit but I know that they can do it..

A friends 6030 JD stuck open at the local JD dealer and they got the air intake stuffed with rags and saved it....

I seen it happen one time in the 80s on a Chevy van, guy changed the fuel filter and couldn't get it to start so he sprayed a ton of JB80 into the intake. Well it started alright, and proceeded to rev to the moon but did not come apart.

It is a natural reaction on a run away to get down by the engine and try to stop the fuel. This is much like the instinct to run into a confined space when a coworker drops, you have to get to safety. I do not know if I would think it through or react, and hope I never have to.

Maybe they washed the oil bath air cleaner and didn't air it out??

Never stand in the plane of a flywheel or fan for longer than needed. I even hate to fly on an airplane in the same plane as a propeller or engine.

(quoted from post at 08:17:15 02/10/21) Another cause;

A diesel engine manages RPM by controlling fuel not air so it does not have a throttle plate like a gasoline engine.
Airflow to the intake is basically an uncontrolled hole that is able to suck in any available fuel present in the air.

Consider a natural gas leak at a facility, if a truck with a diesel engine not equipped with a manual air shutdown was to drive onto the site the engine would be capable of running uncontrollably off the unmetered fuel, regardless of what the ignition switch or governor tries to do it in regards to controlling RPM or shutting it down.

Click to expand...

There's a LONG "read" at the link below about the Deepwater Horizon oil rig disaster that tells about the rig's engines overspeeding and blowing up from ingesting methane from the blown out well.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/26/us/26spill.html

Like Mark and Mike said any combustible' how ever they enter With Detroits it is a stuck rack or gov failure for the most part unless it is on a drilling rig back in my oil path days it was not uncommon for a driling rig to go up in flames when they had a blow out from hitting pocket of surface gas that would blow the drilling mud up and out of the hole and the engines would get a wiff and it was off to the races , ya had a bunch of diesel engines all screaming on mud pumps air compressors light plants and draw works MOST were Detroits , now IF the crew could get all the emergency stops pulled no big deal just let the pocket blow it's self out or shut the blow out preventer valves If not then one of them would blow3 and the rig went up in flames . A turbo failure where the seal on the compressor side lets go and start pumping engine oil in and injector pump has and issue with the rack of governor . One morning as i was heading out when i got to the end of my drive i was waiting on traffic to pullout and head north a left turn for me and all of a sudden my Cummins started to gain speed and was now getting close to 3 grand with lost of preignition knocking knew right off she wqas wiffen Natural gas and as soon as i could i went right to get out of it . The gas line at the edge of my drive developed a bad leak . Over the years i have been around runaway engines . The one that was funny was a what they called a 6-110 Detroit , where i worked when i was a kid the company rented on big shop bay to four guys that were rebuilding Detroits for the oil field . They had just rebuilt this engine and had it on a stand outside the shop running wide open for break in . I was Steam cleaning parts of a D 8 i was working on close to it and i started to notice it was Gaining RPM a little at a time , so i walked into there part of the shop and told Wild Bill about it and he came out and yep she is starting to run away , He unhooked the wire they had holding it wide open and tried to shut it down , that did not work so he pulled the valve cover and tried to force the rack closed bare handed , that did not work all the while this thing is running faster . He runs back in the shop and comes out with a pair of vise crips and clamps them on the rack and she will NOT move , next he pulls the fuel lines out of the 30 gallin barrel of fuel thinking it will shut down when the fuel runs out , NOPE she is now sucking oil out of the oil pan up past the rings . Where they went wrong is they left the emergency shut down butterfly off the intake of the blower and now way to shut off the air . He grabed a small piece of ply wood and threw it up against the intake of the blower and it SUCKED the ply wood thru the blower that munched it up and spit it out the exhaust , Next he tried feeding it the box of red dirty shop rags that were setting there waiting to get picked by the uniform company thinking that they would lock up the blower and shear the blower dive , NOt it was raining red shop rag confetti out the pipe NOW was the time to RUN and EVERYBODY on both sides RAN waiting for the BOMB to go off . Just how high that engine went i can not say but she was screaming when it ran out of oil in the pan she started to seize up and started to come back down and lock up and about fell out of the cradle . They saved NOTHING out of that engine other then the ft. case rear case , valve cover and oil pan . IOn my patch days i was at two rig fires one up near Mike N/E and once down south I personally had two Detroits run away on me after rebuild due to faulty rebuilt injectors NO i did not rebuild the Injectors Detroit diesel did . I was smart i had the butterfly on the blower and vice grips already on the rack before start up .

The dual fuel power plant engines of yesterday would run fully on Diesel, or you could add natural gas and cut the diesel fuel back just enough to provide ignition. The Fairbanks Morse OP was a good example of this. Fuel is fuel, they will run on anything that burns.

I had a worn out Volkswagen Rabbit Diesel that ran away it was sucking engine oil up and burning it wowwwwwwwww was that exciting first time it happened and talk about smoking. The old Detroit Two Cycle Diesels did it and had an emergency stop that shutoff the intake air to stop it.

John T

Diesels WILL run on engine oil too with the injection system shut off. Air safety shut down is the only way to stop engine when that happens.

Positive Air Shut Off devices have been around for some time, as a matter of fact I believe they originated p here in Alberta many years ago. All sorts of designs and the triggers can be everything from manual to automatic shut downs. I believe that a lot of diesel-powered engines have to have them factory installed depending on a variety of situations like application and type of site where they are being used. Link below has some information .....
Untitled URL Link

in collage someone messed of the rack on a driptriot and it started to run away so they stuck a big parts book on the intake and it sucked it in, they emptied a CO2 extinguisher and that only slowed it down. One big ol boy just back from desert storm grabbed the big hose that we washed the floor with and walked up to it and shoved it in the intake. The blocked ventilated and was piston parts and pieces everywhere. I have had test engines start to run away but locking the dyno will kill it fast.

Auto or truck fans have the same danger potential of failing. I had a fan blade come apart, and go through the hood of my jeep Wagoneer years ago. Just be careful. Stan

(quoted from post at 11:37:52 02/10/21) Auto or truck fans have the same danger potential of failing. I had a fan blade come apart, and go through the hood of my jeep Wagoneer years ago. Just be careful. Stan

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Strangest one I saw was on a 1993 GM diesel pickup, a piece of the alternator fan blade let loose, it didn't just dent the hood it was visibly sticking through it.

The shop at the freight line I worked for kept a "one by " around just for the purpose of stopping run-a-ways by covering the intake. gm

Tractor Vet. You sure have led an interesting life. I can't compete with all those experiences.

My brother in law loaned his 1486 to a friend and the engine ran away. Guy tried to shut it off standing right along side the injection pump. Jumped back into the cab and a rod came out the side, knocked the injection pump off so that stopped the commotion.

When I took the pump apart I found that little check valve that was in the return elbow on side of pump had come out of elbow, went back into pump and it lodged under the control sleeve in the pump.

I had already been changing those elbows to the ones with no check valve and only a simple orifice but his tractor had not been in shop since I started doing that. Co. had sent out a letter advising the replacement of that check valve.

I had one 560 start to run away on me but that pump has the shut off lever so just pulling that shut it down. I had misadjusted the length of the governor linkage to metering valve. Other end of link had not been in the slot in the governor sleeve. My mistake.

Later in life and hopefully smarter, I would temperarily mount those roosa master pumps, after repair, to side of frame, hook up fuel and turn the pump with the old speed handle tool. This way pump was full of fuel, knew it pumped and shut off and did not take much cranking to start engine after installing.

Many a Roosa Master pumps have been damaged upon installation due to not tying the throttle back to hold governor weights and sleeve in position. Another one of my brother in laws worked at a dealer and the mechanic did it to two pumps on same tractor.

No rack in a Roosa Master and likely no turbo but never know for sure as it could have been added.

(quoted from post at 10:26:40 02/10/21) I didn't want to hi jack Super99s thread about the death caused from a run a way engine. Growing up we never had a diesel engine, only gas engines so I'm not used to this but have heard of it. Seems like from reading the other posts it might be more likely to happen on newly rebuilt engines. What causes these engines to run a way??? Educate me on this subject.

Click to expand...

The 53 series Detroit Two Strokes had a blower oil seal update . To reduce the likely hood of engine lube oil being blown into the cylinders .

(quoted from post at 11:40:09 02/10/21)

(quoted from post at 08:17:15 02/10/21) Another cause;

A diesel engine manages RPM by controlling fuel not air so it does not have a throttle plate like a gasoline engine.
Airflow to the intake is basically an uncontrolled hole that is able to suck in any available fuel present in the air.

Consider a natural gas leak at a facility, if a truck with a diesel engine not equipped with a manual air shutdown was to drive onto the site the engine would be capable of running uncontrollably off the unmetered fuel, regardless of what the ignition switch or governor tries to do it in regards to controlling RPM or shutting it down.

Click to expand...

There's a LONG "read" at the link below about the Deepwater Horizon oil rig disaster that tells about the rig's engines overspeeding and blowing up from ingesting methane from the blown out well.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/26/us/26spill.html

Click to expand...

eartbreaker of a story. much wrong there.

Was working on a drilling rig back in the day with 2 detroit diesels in tandem that ran away for some reason. Driller ran over and shut them down real quick. He fixed whatever it was and started back up. Don't know what the deal was.

Was on a different rig when I was the driller and the single Detroit shut down. Didn't know why so I circulated the hole and called for a diesel mechanic to come out to the boons to fix it. Before that the daylight driller showed up around dawn and said they changed the oil the day before. He looked underneath and found the oil plug laying on the ground. Put it back in, filled it with oil, and cancelled the mechanic. It shut down when it lost oil pressure.

One thing I don't understand is why an emergency air cutoff is not Federally mandated on ALL diesel engines. With everything else that is mandated, this one piece of safety equipment is not.

Had it happen twice, takes about a week for solid bowl movements return.

You most likely mean "bowel" movements. That's a good laugh!

I always think about this topic when joe mechanic talks about fixin his own injection pump. Anytime a pump gets any type of service work there is a chance of a run away. I have seen a couple. It only takes a few seconds for pistons to start changing holes. It seems like a hour if you are trying to shut one down. Al

Thanks for all the replies guys. That explains a lot. Does run a ways happen on the newer electronic injected engines such as the duramax? Or can they electronically shut the fuel down?

My father was a GMC field engineer for GM Truck and Coach, retiring in 1969 after 30 years.

He had been a US Navy Tech on loan from GM to the War Department in WWII in the South Pacific.

He told me that it was not uncommon for ship board diesels to run away due to lack of maintenance of the oil bath air cleaners. Maintenance was of low priority in war zones and condensation and/or sea water ingestion into the AC bowls could raise the oil level high enough that the engine would draw AC oil into the blower inlet causing the engine to run away.

Some experienced operators knew what was happening and would decouple the two or three other engines in dual and quad engine set ups while engaging the prop to stall the run away but most simply got out of the way and let things happen.

Dean

they are computer controlled and it not an actual pump like these old pumps. dont make your payment and head office will shut you down all right.

Different kind of runaway. The captain said he pulled out of the slip and the computer driven throttles both went to full. He tried to hit the harbor inlet. Missed it by that much. Experienced and sober captain. Stone key Fla. The sound of the engines roar woke me sleeping on a nearby boat

That is actually depicted in the movie.

Wonder how many viewers understood it.

Dean

Some interesting videos on run away diesels on YouTube. I have a Volvo cabover. I started it after sitting 8 or so years. It didn't run away, but it didn't shut off. I unhooked the intake, and used a piece of flat steel. It just sucked around the seal. I finally had to find a piece of rubber to make a good seal. Stan

Heres a neat one- nothing really happens until 2 minutes in. Luckily, an old guy is calmly strolling by...
Shes a little runaway

Had a 4 cylinder Cat Skid Steer, with about 25 hours on it, it run away. The turbo seal started leaking, sucking in engine oil. Talk about smoke,Wow. I'am surprised no one driving by called the fire department. We got it shut down by stuffing a bundle of shop rags into the intake. Cat tech came out next day, fixed seal and filled with oil. Then test drove it.said engine was junk. It had a bad vibration. Tech loaded it up and took it back to Cat.

Now I'm curious, on the old two cylinder diesel Deeres with a manual decompression lever, pulling that should be enough to kill the engine in event of a runaway, right?

Brandon

Yes, holding the decompressor lever will shut the engine down.

When I worked at a GMC dealer the Detroits would overspeed every time the mechanics set the racks. Just hit the emergency shut off and go again. My last Cummings started to run away when the turbo seal let loose,good brakes and a good clutch stopped it.

One thing to keep in mind, an electronic Diesel engine can still runaway if it inhales enough combustible gasses. I believe Canada has a mandate on all Diesels that are potentially exposed to these environments.

The auto ignition temperature of the gas must be less than the compression temperature.

I've done it during normal circumstances, all these stories just got me thinking. No compression, no fire, no matter how much fuel you're pouring in there!

Brandon

As far as I know the 2-53 Detroits used in the small Deere crawlers 440ICD had no overspeed shutdowns on them.

(quoted from post at 13:58:42 02/10/21) Thanks for all the replies guys. That explains a lot. Does run a ways happen on the newer electronic injected engines such as the duramax? Or can they electronically shut the fuel down?

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That stops the "stuck rack" type runaways, because there is no rack. The computer would have to malfunction, and frankly I have never heard of such a thing.

However, the turbo is still a mechanical device and runaways due to turbo seal failures are still possible, though again unlikely, due to better designs, tolerances and materials in modern turbos.

Yes, but it would only take a small amount of actual diesel to act as a pilot to light the gas.

(quoted from post at 05:20:43 02/11/21)

(quoted from post at 13:58:42 02/10/21) Thanks for all the replies guys. That explains a lot. Does run a ways happen on the newer electronic injected engines such as the duramax? Or can they electronically shut the fuel down?

Click to expand...

That stops the "stuck rack" type runaways, because there is no rack. The computer would have to malfunction, and frankly I have never heard of such a thing.

However, the turbo is still a mechanical device and runaways due to turbo seal failures are still possible, though again unlikely, due to better designs, tolerances and materials in modern turbos.

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The (now old) GM 6.5 diesels with electronic injection will at least make an attempt at a runaway when the computer-controlled "fuel solenoid" in the injection pump gets worn and sticky. The solenoid controls duration of injection and thereby fuel rate.

I have a 1995 tonner that occasionally does that, I've had it scream to at least redline before I got it shut off.

Turning the key "off" releases a separate shutdown solenoid which cuts fuel off to the pumping plungers so it stops even with the "fuel rate" solenoid stuck.

Let it sit a while and start it back up and all will be well for perhaps many miles.

I have a re-man pump sitting on the bench, I just need to get ambitious enough to install it!

When my 435 ran away with a busted governor . I yanked the prefilter off the top of the air intake and throttled the engine with the palm of my hand .

(quoted from post at 18:30:34 02/10/21) I've done it during normal circumstances, all these stories just got me thinking. No compression, no fire, no matter how much fuel you're pouring in there!

Brandon

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Brandon, except that compression releases release only part of the compression. There is still adequate compression for starting, so there would be plenty to keep it running at high RPMs

Two cylinder diesel will not fire with the decompressor engaged .

Yea i did start early in life . I was 13 when i got the job of mowing grass and cleaning the offices and shop for this large construction company . My family had just moved to this small town. I knew no one Mom and dad were having a new home built in a new subdivision and we were living in a Duplex on the main drag till it was finished . Dad and i hand cleared he lot the hard waY HAND SAWS AND AX . On the weekends if we had time we would go to my one uncles farm For large family get togethers and of course get to drive tractors , at the time he had Crawlers and one old M but non of us ever got to drive just the crawlers and had been driving them since i was 7 . Some times we would get to work ground or help with planting and in the fall it was all hands on deck for harvest , The girls would work the storage barns and the boys the fields My uncle raised TATERS and my job on the weekends was run the O C 3 pulling the two wheel wagon picking up the bushel baskets of Taters and take them into one of the storage barns and the men would dump them on the sorting tables and the girls would pick out any trash or bad ones . Then they would stack the baskets back opn the wagon and back to the field and i would slowly drive down the row of dug Taters while two other cousins would throw the baskets off to hand loaded and when they were all off i would swing back aropund where the men would start stacking the loaded baskets back on and back to the storage . So i had a good working knowledge of equipment vary early . And I liked BIG TONKA TOYS . The day that the excavating company came to dig the basement i was there waiting , this is when i meet the guys that i would end up working with . They arrive with the B61 Mack and Rodger Lowboy and a 22B Bucyress . I was probably more in the way as i had to watch up close as the started digging down to find the sewer and the water line asking 10 million questions eager to help in any way i could . John the guy that was the foreman and little did i know my future boss would tgell me what was going on and how they were going to do this or that . Jessy was a what ever needed done guy and was down in the ditch Willis was the head lead shovel Crane operator . They were part of the full timers that worked year round . At one poiont John thought that he would see if i knew anything at all and told me to go to Willis truck and get the STORY POLE And transit . walked over opened the door and got the wooden box with the transit out went to the back and got the tripod and pole and carried over to John and said ya want me to set it up The look on Johns face was priceless in total disbelief and i get do you think you can then set it up over there out of the way but where we can see the whole location and while your at it drive a Bench mark stake so we can reset tomorrow . When i was done John came over and checked and it was set dead on , Yea i had done this before out at my uncles while he was installing all the field tile and the pond builds . They got the sewer and water line in and a little of the basement dug before quitting time . Next day bright and early i was waiting for them and they gave me the jo of setting up the transit and seeing if i could get the bench mark reading set and do the figuring . I played grade man checking the readings as the dug . When the job was done John told me that i could come out to the shop when they were there if i liked . That started it i would ride my bike out and watch the happenings , Something was always going on , There were five mechanic's that worked there three welders , half dozen Carpenters one guy took care of the huge parts room and 21 people in the offices , ya had civil engineers Draftman estimators working up job cost five women . Then one day the Owner stopped in and found me setting reading a Cat Shop manual and jumped on John about it John did not take any crap from The OLD MAN and told him to lighten up the KID is tryen to learn something > That is when i was informed that IF i was going to Hang around i was going to WORK and he asked my name grabbed a time card put my name on it and said i am starting you out at a 1.50 and hour and you will EARN EVERY DIME OF IT and i got my work load . I became a Part time full timer . I kept my mouth shut and watched if i had a question i would ask . I was watching the one old welder over his shoulder one afternoon as he was welding on a build up of a ft. idler off a Cat Dozer and i got a little to close as when he went to change rod he flipped up his hood and caught me in the hood i had on and he said son uyou ain't ah going to learn just watchen ya learn by doen so set you A-- down and get to welden , Yea looked like a flock of bird came over and learned quick the finer art of GRINDING and Chipping first and under Webbers guidance a and occasional swat in the back of the head i became a WELDER , welding on idlers and roller shells then it was onto grouser stock welding . Then the wrench twisting . Then john started to refine my operator skills on Saturdays he and would take something up into the far back and MOVE DIRT I was pretty good with a dozer and was honing my skills with a pull pan/ Scraper and the OLD MAN Caught us again I did not heqar the words but there was alot of arm flappen and finger pointing as i was stripping top soil with a D 7 and a 13 yd pan and doing a might fine job of it . John made the old man come look at my handy work and i saw him throw his hand up and turn and walk away. He never said another word about the TRAINING session after that day . QAnd i did not even have my drivers license yet and i could run anything they had . Back then when ya moved heavy equipment we did not use escorts if we needed help getting thru a small town or city the local cops would help but you did have to have a FLAGMAN in the truck and i was always elected for that job . Rode a lot of miles in the B61 but never in the BIG Autocar , that was for the really BIG stuff the Mack did the 100000lbs and down . I was 17 when John and i went out to the Standard Oil Stock yard to pick up a 10000 gallon job site tank that was a little over 10 ft. in Dia. and 35-40 feet long , we had to winch it up on the trailer and chained it down flagged it and pulled out . About three mayb e four miles from the pick up John whipps it off the road and comes to a stop, i thought that we had a chain come loose and i bailed out grabbed the cheater and started checking chains . Nope no loose chains checked tires Nope no low2 tires , wonder why we stopped . I walk back up to the truck and John is setting in my seat and i get You have been ridding long enough time you take it . take it to the job site , Welp lets see if i can master this here 5 and 4 as well as john does , Yep i ground a few pounds of hamburger and a few harsh shifts but i got it down and could two hand her with ease The old mqan went to bat for me and i got my Chauffeurs license and also my own company truck . A brand new dozer to run and was making a mans wages and held a class A operating engineers book and by the time i got Drafted i had 6 years with the company . Ended up loose it all due to a union split while i was in Nam and i did not know about it till after i got home and had missed out on the grace period by 63 days to transfer . They did not care if i was a vet or not . The B A and i never did get along and the FUD between us never ended Our paths crossed again when i was running and oil field service company and the union was tryen to FORCE the patch into the union He made the mistake of threatening me on a remote drilling location , that did not work well for him and him and his two goons were lucky to make it out of there alive Them John Deere 750 Dozers are FAST and nimble under the skilled hands . I never lacked for work as someone was always bugging me to COME TO WORK FOR ME And we played that game for awhile always looking for a better deal Till i got fed up with working for OTHER people . Yea we played car mechanic at three different dealer ships then parts manager and here we went again First one i went looking for the Job , green and not knowing much about it so it was DIY it and OJT Then came the offer to go to a brand new dealership as and assistant manager at way better pay then i was making as a manager . Four weeks later the parts Manager tells me that he does not like working with Chrysler parts and was going back to a GM dealer and i become the manager with a pay raise and all the PERKS . Then i must have fallen and hit my head because i left there to go dive COAL BUCKETS . Here it was up to you as to how much you made as that epened on just how big of STONES you had and just how OUTLAW you can be . always hated running around with any open space in the wagon and that lead me to becoming and O/O and becoming a bigger outlaw . Till the crash of 79 when the mills and mines went down , stuck it out till the fall of 83 when i found a sucker to by the truck and trailer and needed work but ya could not find work So if ya can find work then ya have to create a job and so started the tractor repair then into the buy and sell . Did i get rich Nope but i did good work at a reasonable price and had a good customer base . Did i ever have a job go south yep i am not perfect did i ever buy a piece of equipment that ya got handled on Yep we called that paying tuition for the learning experience. Rule #1 Never buy something at NIGHT with a flash lite Ruel #2 NEVER BUY SOMETHING that has a pedigree hanging on it as they LIE Rule # never believe what you are being told when the man can not look you straight in the eye . Rule #4 if you have a gut feeling trust it , Rule #5 when bidding at a sale look over the item while every one is else where and look well and set the price in your head and never go over it . Don't care how bad ya want it . Yep i learned that one the hard way not just once as i am hard headed it takes a few times to get it in my thick head. And each time i got EDUCATED .

Any two cylinder JD diesel I've seen WON'T start/run with the decompression lever pulled back, and holding exhaust valves off their seats.

Vet. Very interesting.