v8 farm tractors?

why did the v8 tractor never really took off in sales?
looking thru some old magazines from the the70s
seems like massey sold several, oliver, white, and ih both had some models
any one have or use one?
any models i missed?
thanks

As I understand it, the 1468 and 1568 IH tractors with the V8s were not as powerful, as the 6 cylinder 1466, and 1566. The V8s were also less efficient, shorter lived, and could not be turbo-charged.

The inline 6 cylinder is the most efficient engine design ever developed.

Why couldn't the v8 be turbocharged
just not rugged enough inside? I agree
tho that the inline 6 has proven
itself the standard of heavy duty
engines

John Deere v8

The Perkins 640 V8 was turbocharged in the MF 2805.

Dave local dairy farmer’s 1468 Alcohol burner. They have a few You Tube videos under Reborn Binder.

Many of the V8s used were designed as medium duty truck engines. Cat 3208, 555 Cummins, Perkins. They didn't hold up as well to farm tractor abuse. They weren't that great in trucks either.

If somebody had built a tractor with a 3408 Cat it would still be working.

My brother has been a heavy duty mechanic on farm machinery over 40 years and never had anything good to say about V8 engines in farm tractors. Versatile had a Cummins V8 in some models. John Deere had one in a 50 series four wheeler. Massey too. Internationals in 2 and 4 wheel drives for a while. Even Co-op Implements sold a "Super Wildcat" four wheeler with Cat V8. Case was about the only one never tried to sell one with a V8.

I think it was mostly due to the visibility, and service access benefits of straight 6 engines. Either design can be built with the same durability and power characteristics. But V8s are tougher to see around, and gain access.

I think most were shorter stroke than the inline 6's so not capable of as much torque, Can produce the HP maybe but lugging is a problem.

Notice how the heavy truck industry is all inline 6s now.

jt

Rusty Have a couple qestions. Was the Super Wildcat a rebranded Steiger? Also as to Case not putting out a V8 Didn't the 4994 have a Scania V8?

Just wondering

jt

I had an 1155 Massey with a 540 Perkins. That thing would just scream.I never had big enough weqipment to really work it,so I never got to see it's true 'colors'.What a monster it was.

(quoted from post at 07:58:15 12/05/20) Rusty Have a couple qestions. Was the Super Wildcat a rebranded Steiger? Also as to Case not putting out a V8 Didn't the 4994 have a Scania V8?

Just wondering

jt

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You are right on both. CI four wheelers were Steiger built in most cases. Somewhere I have a picture of myself standing in front of one of them in 1972. And I totally forgot about the Scania V8 Cases. Never saw many of those except in brochures.

We farmed with 4 V8 tractors over the years. MF 1800 with the Cat 3160, MF 1150 with Perkins 540, Versatile 950 with 903 Cummins, and the JD 8850. The only tractor to give us any problems was the 8850 and that’s only because we bought it used with over 10,000 hrs. The Versatile 950 was the best tractor we ever had. It would out pull out lug any 855 we had including the 976 Versatile that came after it. The throwaway Cat 3160 in the 1800 never let loose on us the 8 years we had it. And I think that’s because we ran it the proper way. Too many guys pulled back on the throttle because it sound like the engine was going to fly apart and then proceeded to pull the guts out of them. They were a short stroke high rpm engine. It was actually less wear and tear on them if you ran full throttle 2,800 rpms then say 2,400 and lug them.

I had a Steiger ST320. Cummins VT903. It was my cheap power for 10 years, until I could afford a nice tractor! It was loud, hot, and crude. More cylinders may be good for acceleration, not so good for torque.

My take on this is why feed 8 when 6 will do . Plus the fact that V 8's do not have the lets get down and pull . They run fine as long as you can keep them buzzen but they fall on there faces fast and do not lug or as the say torque rise . Mack was the only one that had a V 8 that would get with the program but she did not last vary long . Cat, Detroit , Cummins, Perkins, and Mack and I H and a couple others tried to play in the V 8 game . I have run 8-71 detroits driven a few 8-92 Detroits ran a few V 8 cat's and Cummins and one V8 Mack . They all sounded neat and basically all the did was convert diesel fuel into noise . 903 Cummins no two ran the same and were a bear to tune , first one were non turbo and were dogs then they added a turbo and they were still dogs . Let's take a 1466 with the inline over the 1468 V 8 and the inline will out pull the V 8 and use less fuel doing it . Take and inline 6 Cummins ovver the V 8 set at 350 Hp and take a NTC 350 and the inline will walk all over the V 8 . Case in point here two new I H 4200 semi tractors one with a inline 350 and one with the V 8 350 , both RTO 913 , both with 4.33 rears same tires , same trailers same loads give or take a ton or so making the pull up the same big hill and the inline will walk away from the V 8 and at the end of the day at the feeding trough the inline will use around 20 gallon less fuel . Now back in the day when we were buying fuel for 18-21 cents a gallon it still added up and when buying that new truck the v-8 was 1500 more . When over haul time came you had to dig deeper for the V 8 then the inlinelike twice as much . Detroit V 8's did not hold up well and we were Happy if one lasted more then a year . But with them you could rebuild one side in a evening and be back in bed before 11 and go run the next morning come home before five in the afternoon and rebuild the other side and be in bed by 11 so you could hit it again in the morning at 3Am.

Ah the 3408 Scatterpiller the ledgen . Remember them well and the great battle between HOG HEAD , Slow Poke and Blue Ghost . Two 1977 I H 4300 Eagles pulling coal buckets that ran together against the River Rat crew of five 1978 I H 4300 Eagles that started off with 8 V92 475 Hp against the two 77's with NTC small cams at the Salt mine in Cleveland O. one evening . The five river rats as we called then had never been to the bright lights and big city and with the maze of streets and roads did not know how to get the hello out of Dodge . So Slow Poke and i said that we would lead them out of the area as we were all going to the same salt shed . We lead them up and out of the salt mine around all the detoures and up on to I 77 and down to 480 when Hog Head now said he knew where he was at . Mike and i took it easy lading them all out and as we made the swing on to the get on ramp of 480 we gave out LITTLE OLD NTC 350 Small Crammers there head and up the hill we went GAINING speed up the hill and across the bridge . Every truck that came off the scales at Whiskey Island was 80000 , yea light for us . Mike and i were GONE across 480 on to 271 down to 14 and down to 76 across 76 to Rt 11 and south bound to Rt 7 and on to St. Clairsville to the salt shed . Dumped our loads and was headed back up to Stubenville and out 22 to Cadiz to load coal for morning We meet Hog Head and company just before we got off on 22 west bound . He was ticked NOBODY ran away from his truck . Well we did . Story has it that when they got unloaded the whole crew of them spent the night at Western Branch Diesel getting there trucks worked on . Next afternoon mike and i were back at the salt mine loading salt for Franklin county down by Columbus and once again Hog head and company shows up and loads for Franklin County as he wants a rematch So Miike and i wait on him and his crew and lead them out down West 25th st to I 71 and the battle begins . We got out just ahead of rush hour and we all stayed together till the big hill south of the turn pike and once again that was the last time Mike and i saw the river rats till we had dumped and was headed back north . Once Again Hog Head was mad . Mike and i did not see the river rats for a couple months . One afternoon i had loaded a load of C F C salt headed for Il. and Mike was headed for mid state In. with a load of C F C salt and as i opend the door to my truck after getting my bills i hear HEY GHOST and i answer and i hear ready for a rematch your NOT going to run away from me now . I start looking over the long line of trucks and i do not see his I H 4300 anywhere but i see his other trucks But there is this NEW 79 long nose freightliner . He bought a new truck from out west with a 3408 Cat with a 6 and 4 trans set up . He was going to Franklin County . Well Mike and i were going to be going down I 71 also . Once again all trucks had 80k so weights were the same give or take a couple hundred . and once again the little old NTC 350 Small cammers plum knocked the big bad V 8's socks in the creek . NEVER ever meet a V 8 that would run with a well tuned inline . Hog Head and i had a few more run in's and all with the same endings. Ohio Cat did everything they were allowed to do and a bit more tryen to get it to run.

We put around 7000 hours on our 4568 - only used it for heavy field work - plenty of other tractors around to do light duty work. No overhaul in those hours and it had the power turned up to 350 - 380 hp. It only had about 600-800 hours a year put on it. In those hours the biggest issue we had was the starter - seemed to need to be replaced every year even with the few hours being put on it. It primarily pulled 3 pieces of equipment, a 20' chisel, a 24' plowing disk and a 34' field cultivator and never seemed to come up short on power. The engine was burning a lot of oil when it went down the road but then the hours it had seen were all pretty hard.

We played that game with both the inline six 855 and V8 903. Tractors were a 950 set at 348 hp and a 976 set at 360 hp. The 903 won hands down. Going up hills, the rpms might drop 100 to 200 at the most. The thing pulled like a locomotive. Pulling the same size plow with the 855, the rpms would drop about 400 and if they got down to 1,600 it was like turning the key off. That 976 was the biggest disappoint we ever had. Even complained to the dealer saying we were told these inline 6s were suppose to have more torque just like you now are saying. All he did was shrug his shoulders and said “ you didn’t hear that from us”. We’ve several 855s since then and still have 2. None of them ever matched that 903. Several neighbors had Versatiles with 903s and they will tell you what I just did.

Isn't it a 903 destroked?

Straight six has less moving parts than a V8.
Easier to work on too.

My takes is on a V-8 you only got 5 main bergings, on a 6 cylinder, you got 7 !!!!

Agreed.

Big Tee not sure on that. The block was up to my neighbors welding shop and he told them to find another block. It had detonated a few times!

A farmer down the road from me had a 1568 when I was a kid, I always thought that was the coolest tractor ever ! It had the dual chrome stacks. Later on he had a 1586,he told me once that 1586 would walk all over the 1568, use less fuel and lug better. I still thought that 1568 was neat though.

Big Tee I went searching the internet and it’s just a. Big chunk of aluminum!

Relatively short stroke V8s are for Horsepower. Long stroke 6s for Torque.

You are correct on the Case 4994 - 400hp Scania V8.

Like BillWis said: Eights are short stroke so they rev quicker and higher but they come down quicker too due to less torque. There is less room for the crank lobes in a V type block which limits stroke, and it is the same in trucks as tractors. Look at the difference between the Ford 300 6 and Ford 351 V8. I went from a 300 6 because they didn't offer it any more to the 351. The 351 would accelerate quicker but it wouldn't hold a candle to the 6 on hills. Eights generally make their power at higher RPMs which of course shortens the life.

we had a Massey 2805 just ran it wide open and never lugged it just about 10,000 hr when it burnt in the barn fire loved that tractor never spent a dime on it

8850 Deere had a 955 cu in V8.

We had an 1155 and it was good for tillage that you could pull fast but not good for deep tillage. Spent a good deal of its life running a lagoon pump . Started having so many hyd. Problems we sold it.

My neighbor had stiegers l e with an 855 and one with a 903. They claimed the 903 would work circles around the 855 u till they got to the hill ground and the 855 would pull away. The 903s are now coming off the assembly line at 600 horse power!

Here ya go comparing apples to oranges. and just WHAT WAS THE CPL setting on the 855 , probably like 315 or maybe a castrated 325 . and NEVER had been put in service , and next your going to say what are you talking about . Well you had the 90 NOTHING twisten 348 ponys so someone had there fingers in it . and the fact that you had it buzzen more RPM's then the six . Let me get my grubby fingers under the valve cover of the 855 and pop the ball out of the pump and change just ONE spring in that pump then tell me how the 90 nothing pulls . Been down this road many times back in the day , we had 318 double breasted Yamaha's out pulling them . . NO cummins has ever left the factory set to full spec.s and ALL need PUT IN SERVICE . EVEN the DODGE pick ups need done and hardly any have had this done . They liked you to do this after 15000 miles on a big truck and before around 500 hours . The difference after being PUT IN SERVICE is day and NIGHT . When i got my Dodge 3500 it had 62 thousand on it and had NEVER had this done as i took it up to a friend that was service manager at the Cummins store and he ran the S/N . and when i aske Bobby when he wanted to do it he looked at me and said why you know Cummins ya just need a few items . Well since the 5.9 and 8.3 are used in Ag i bought the Cummins service tool kit and took and afternoon and did mine and it was a Day and night difference and three more MPG . Just like on the 855's after i run the overheads . The only thing about the 90 Nothings was they sounded COOL and were Like a City girl they taklked big intown but ya get them out in the country and they did not do much.

For Mil app . Ain't seen hide nor hair of a 90 nothing in years . Now in theory ya should be able to sneak out 903 Hp out of it one pony per cube

I see them everyday. I did some testing on a marine version that was 800hp. They would go over that but cooling was an issue.

Both the 950 and 9760 were brand NEW tractors you fool!!!! Nobody had their fingers in them nobody touched them. These were stock tractors right from the factory off the lot. The Versatile 950 was rated at 348 hp. That was the advertised horsepower. Look it up if you don't believe me. Nobody was twisting anything. Would it blow your mind to know that the Massey Ferguson used the 903 in their 4000 series tractors and the biggest model was the 4900 topping out at 375 hp.

They still needed put in service i don't give two hoots in hatties if they were FACTORY NEW . when they got broke in then ya run the overhead , pulled the pump and put it on the stand and checked it for pressure and flow and made adjustment . Just because it says one thing THIS IS NOT WHAT they are doing . Case in point here one Thursday evening after a test ride of a NEW I H 4300 Eagle when they first came out my one close friend and i BOUGHT two new 4300 Eagles , Both speced out the same except for color k, they were BUILT back to back and only ONE number in the S/N was different . Straight from the factory in Ft. Wayne My buddys ran better then mine by a half gear better in the hills , i took mine up to Cummins first and when Bobby and Chucky got done with mine i was a whole gear faster up the hills Then he took his up and they did the same thing to his and once again i was on the back door . Back to Cummins and they gave me a wee bit more and the battle was on back and forth with the two truck till they were ALMOST even , both pulled the hills with 95 to a 100 grand in the wagon even , BUT flat out i was getting fifty RPM more on the top and could do a couple more MPH . The battle was far from over and we started doing things to make MORE pony power , Pump work Bigger hair dryers Cam timing Pulse manifolds custom injectors all Stelite valves , running the intake valves tighter loosen up the exhaust valves only 45 inch pounds on the injectors , then a total tear down and all sorts of grinding and deflashing along with and over balance of all moving rotating pieces and parts . We made them RUN . Now had you had those engines done like they were suppose to it would have made a HUGE difference . A 903 IF momorey still serve me they had a gov run out of 2850 and IF the 855 was factory set it had a 2150 Gov run out and started layen the fuel back at 2050 RPM . NOW had you added say like four shims on the back side and got it to run with a 2350 fuel run out and a top gov run out of 2450 . then you would have had your EYES opened . After spending the better part of my life twisten wrenches since 1962 and making thing GO i do have a fair bit of knowledge Of what runs and what does not run and HOW to make the ones that don't run scream . And you like most don't know the how to and what fors ya just get in them and drive them . Same as when i had the shop open 99% of my customers did not know that hey by the way here when was the last time you had the valves adjusted on your diesel tractor and i would get YOU HAVE TO ADJUST THE VALVES ONCE IN A WHILE , well DAH yea you do and when you went to adjust the valves you could throw a cat between the valve stem and rocker arm . Your Doge Cummins SHOULD have the valves adjusted every 25000 miles Big trucks every 100000 miles , i did mine at 50000 miles or when i had to replace head gskts and head bolt , the price you paid for a go fast truck with the wick turned way up .

Maybe we should back up a bit and ask "why would you want a V8 for a particular application?" The short answer is packaging. A V8 packs a lot of displacement in a small package. That's particularly important in automotive applications, but not necessarily so for farm tractors.

A farm tractor needs to run at rated horsepower all day long, day after day for many years. Not so for most trucks and heavy equipment. So it's no surprise that so many tractor manufacturers opt to design their own engines rather than buy something off the shelf. And because it's designed for a specific application, they don't need to worry whether the motor will fit in a medium-duty truck or some other tight package. Inline engines fit just fine in most farm tractors. Also, since inline six cylinder engines are very smooth and inherently well-balanced, they tend to be the go-to choice for tractor motors.

IH reportedly pulled the D-361 engine out of their truck division that went into the 806 tractor. This was in part to cut the development time of the 06 series down to around 2 years instead of 3 or more years in response to the JD New Generation of Power. Agreed that the inline 6 cylinder is a very logical starting point for a large HP farm tractor engine. But even that was not sanchrosect as profits tightened by the late 1970's pushing 6 cylinders out of 70 to 90 horsepower tractors in favor of 4 cylinder engines that were turbocharges in some instances.

(quoted from post at 10:59:22 12/06/20) IH reportedly pulled the D-361 engine out of their truck division that went into the 806 tractor. This was in part to cut the development time of the 06 series down to around 2 years instead of 3 or more years in response to the JD New Generation of Power. Agreed that the inline 6 cylinder is a very logical starting point for a large HP farm tractor engine. But even that was not sanchrosect as profits tightened by the late 1970's pushing 6 cylinders out of 70 to 90 horsepower tractors in favor of 4 cylinder engines that were turbocharges in some instances.

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I don't see turbos on fours as cost cutting. Turbocharged engines are much more efficient than naturally aspirated. Sometimes manufacturers build what people want.

Not exactly a fair comparison there, same gearing and transmission with two engines that were designed to operate at completely different rpm ranges
NTC350 was factory governed at 2150 with a sweet spot around 16-1800 rpm, VT350 was factory governed at 2750 with sweet spot around 23-2500 rpm, under 2100 was lugging those engines.
RTO9513 transmission was not recommended for use behind a 903, the RT9513 direct with under drive was the better choice due to the engines higher rpm range, same with rear gearing, 4.44's was considered high speed gearing for a 903 were 4.11's was a better choice for a inline 6, I ran 4.77's on big rubber that limited the truck to 72 mph but on KY and Pa hills a stock NTC350 could pull with my stock 320 hp VT903 and I averaged 1/2 mpg better fuel milage than any of the 318's, 290's, 350's and Cats that worked for the same outfit as me. Now a NTC400 was another story was well as the 380 and 425 Cats, I would move over into the slow lane and watch they go away.

I was wondering what roads you guys took when you hit the In and Ill state lines with those 80000 lb loads, back at that time Ky, Oh, PA were 80000 lb states, In, Il, Tn were 72000 lb states.
I,ve had to take some site seeing routes a few times back hauling welding rods out of Lincoln welding in Cleveland over to In. and down to Tn. They would only cut the load so much and I was pulling a heavy reefer trailer.