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Synchromesh in farming vs. trucking

BarnyardEngineering

BarnyardEngineering

Well-known Member
Location
Rochester, NY
Why is it that "synchromesh is for female cats" if you're a truck driver, yet it is a MUST in farm tractors?

Over and over I see these complaints about certain tractors not having synchronized transmissions, and how they were junk and no good and behind the times...

Yet to this day, you can not buy a synchronized heavy duty truck transmission.

Surely by now technology has advanced to where they could build a synchronizer that would hold up to trucking.
 
(quoted from post at 05:18:03 09/21/20) You don't need a Synchronized transmission in a truck, the timing of the driver is the synchronizer !
Click to expand...

Same thing can be said for tractors. "Learn how to shift." "Deal with it."

I've seen experienced truckers miss shifts, grind gears, sometimes with alarming frequency... All that would be gone with synchronizers. You'd never miss a shift, and you wouldn't have to learn how to double clutch or float gears, something some drivers NEVER get straight, and you wouldn't have to figure out the idiosyncrasies of each truck you drove.
 
The reasoning behind that is the new driver's don't have to be taught how to shift a truck. one less headache for the company with 5,000 trucks,I bought a new generation 2, Auto shift,it's not perfect either,but the local mechanic's cant touch it until they get a tech on the line from the manufacture! They dont work Saturdays,Sundays or holidays, but the truck driver does!
 


Synchronizing a heavy truck transmission is to say that the driver will be using the clutch for all shifts which is simply not realistic except for over-the-road long haul.
 
part of the issue with a large truck is a syncro transmission to handle to torque would be huge and weigh a ton and be crazy expensive.

that's the main reason they're not syncro. if the companies could make them and there was a market to make a profit there WOULD be large trucks with synro transmissions.

the new large truck "automatics" aren't true automatics in the classic car and light/medium truck automatics.

they are a regular non-syncro transmission machanically but the clutch and the shifting is automaticly done via computers
 
No way I would want a synchronized transmissions in a big truck.
9 or 10 gears and you need to use the clutch to shift a synchronized transmissions.
My left leg hurts just thinking about it.
The fact that the new crop of drivers grind gears (because they are taught to double clutch) is forcing a lot of companies to buy automatics.

A tractor does not work with a non synchronized transmission because the tractor does not have the smooth rolling momentum to keep everything up
to speed when you take it out of gear. Without this momentum it makes it hard to get into the next gear.
 
the new large truck "automatics" aren't true automatics in the classic car and light/medium truck automatics

You can say that again.
That and electric throttle makes for such a lag time you learn not to pull out in front of someone.
They are very slow to get up to speed.
 
I have been driving heavy trucks here in Europe for more than 30 years. The last time I drove a truck with a clutch pedal was more than 20
years ago. Over here, we watch films with North American trucks in, and we are amazed to see tall gearsticks dominating the cab floor. My
last big truck was made by Daf in Holland and had a simple rotary switch on the dashboard. I would climb aboard on Sunday afternoon, turn
the switch to " D " and set off to Italy. I would turn the switch to "R " if any manoevering was needed
 
Been running non syncho transmissions in tractors all my life don't see the big deal since a lot of tractors even back to the 50's had a 2 or 3 speed shift up or down on the go.Have 3 tractors with transmissions I can shift on the go but rarely ever helps me as most things just put it in what ever gear and have at it.Older tractors had a much wider power range at different RPMs so it wasn't as bigger deal either.Also when used tractors are for sale the power shift is usually the first thing with a problem that is listed.
 
Then you need to have the computer reprogrammed. Both the auto shifts I had would run away from most trucks from a stop.
 
Salvage yard that hauls for me have 2 KW rollbacks with push button automatics,they run and operate very smoothly.Get on a mountain the driver pushes a button and the truck comes off the mountain with almost no braking without the noise like the old engine brakes used to make.
 
Since the beginning of the trucking industry ownership has been able to get employees to drive what was in the yard. I remember old time truckers saying that the early
seats were not much better than a milk crate. The bottom line is why bother looking for added features when you don't need them to put someone in the cab. So if
nobody is looking for added features then truck builders are not looking to manufacture them. Now if trucks were sitting in the yards with nobody willing to drive for a
reasonable wage then shippers would be looking to add features and companies would build those features.

As for tractors we can go back and forth on synchro range (JD), TA (IH), over/under (Oliver) and in the end I won't convince you and you won't convince me then there is
the Ford guy with his Dual Power, and down the line. Dad or grandpa tended to buy where he was the most comfortable with the dealer in terms of ownership, parts dept,
etc. Technology was a factor but often not a major factor. If the owner rubbed grandpa the wrong then nothing was going to be bought there. Being as you are from
Western NY you are aware that IH had a wide dealer network in terms of personality and parts. JD was equally wide spread plus JDFP approved just about anybody for a
purchase. It's all in the past at this point.
 
I have AG background and when I went to work in the parts department of a truck dealership in around 1995 ? I could hardly believe they were still running dry clutches and old fashioned manual transmissions ! The ones I asked all seemed to agree that "they worked" so why not ?
Power shift transmissions have been around since around 1965 and hydraulic clutches JD has had since around 1973 ? Seems the IVT may be the choice for newer tractors.
 
I rode in a test truck with an auto and it set me back in the seat with a 50,000 pound load.
 
😂😂😂. Because when you run a tractor its nice to shift up
or down without stopping starting a big load using a loader
shuttling back and forth and not grinding gears every time
 
(quoted from post at 05:29:16 09/21/20)
Synchronizing a heavy truck transmission is to say that the driver will be using the clutch for all shifts which is simply not realistic except for over-the-road long haul.
Click to expand...

Yet pushing the clutch TWICE between shifts IS realistic???

That makes no sense. A lot of trucking companies you're fired on the spot if you're caught "floating" gears.
 
Barny .... clarify for me (since I have no experience with big truck driving or mechanics). In your post and in the replies, a "synchronized" standard transmission (with a clutch) is the same as a transmission that has a "synchromesh" feature in its design, is that correct? And if your answer is YES, then you are saying that no new heavy-duty standard tranny trucks have a synchromesh feature when changing gears?
 
I do know some big company's detune there trucks. I have not worked with on road engineering for 10 years so I am out of touch on a lot this.
 
over 1.5 million miles in the seat of a truck all std transmissions the one I put over 1 mil on had a 5x4 twin stick and by far my all time FAV setup,, the last two were 13 speed road rangers, only time I ever used a clutch was to start out, adjusted the clutch in the first one I listed once in the million miles,, absolutely despise a auto shift type personally,, but I can see why they are going more and more to them when I drove there was less than 10% who could actually be called a real driver in my eyes,, I doubt that number is half today,,
 
Bingo, Case.

Expense, both initial and cost to rebuild.

The market does a very good job of making such decisions if the government stays out of the way.

Dean
 
Most tractors just are put into gear and left there for most heavy tillage and field work jobs. Grain carting would be the exception to that. The truck needs to be adjusted for hills/mountains as you go. I have driven about everything except the mack triplex and was told if you could wave to somebody and shift you had 3 arms. I currently own an old 15 up against the dash and a 18 spd. I wanted a 9x4 when I got it and was kind of talked out of it for the gear drag it took against fuel economy. It would also highly reduce the number of people that would be able to drive it. If a clutch will go a million miles or close to that why would you need the cost of a oil or hydraulic clutch and the added mechanics of it. Especially when most bigger fleets trade trucks out at around 3-600,000 miles. They are just getting broke in good when they trade them. Since most of the drivers today can't even check the tires to see if they have a flat. Do you think they could even begin to learn to drive theses old gears boxes? I'd fall asleep if I didn't have to shift and listen to the engine as I drove.
 
Well they did scyro the Med. duty 4 and five speeds and i guess the newer six and sevens but i have not personally driven one of them and the scyro's fail due to slam shifting . In my early days of wrench twisting i worked on many scyro'ed transmissions with the scyro's tore up . as for DOUBLE CLUTCHING some of us can do it with ease and others never get it . As a kid i could shift to first gear with the old three on the tree and never touch a tooth . And stepping up to a B 61 Mack with a five and four i missed a couple times but learned that one fast . Now as for SLUSH BOXES i have a haltered beyond belief for them and yes i have owned several , first car was and automatic and hated it , then tried one in a pick up and it failed , then i tried once again on a SLUSH BOX and had failure after failure with it . Only problems i have had in the drive lines of a BIG trucks is one rear end and two clutches never a transmission failure and never a problem with not being scyroed . As for shifting a farm tractor yea it can be a bit of a pain with the hand throttle . The new Auto shift and Allisons in big trucks as for the ones that can't chew gum pat there belly's and walk across the street at the same time . Like now ya can't even buy a new pick up or one tone with a standard trans anymore .
 
You don't live in a hilly area I presume. Still a few unsynchronized tractors around here on auger or hay rake duty. Very annoying things to have around in hilly terrain and roads.
 
yeah the rentals i've driven with the "auto shift" automatics could hardly get out of their own way. they were more like a golf cart. one pedal (right) for GO and the other pedal (left) for STOP the computer wouldn't let you do much. even using the +/- shifter buttons didn't help much.
 
There are heavy truck synchronized transmissions. (Or maybe there used to be!) Just not very common in North America. 20 years ago that was what
they used in Europe. Volvo and Scania both had synchro transmissions. I have driven 6-7 different trucks with them. Took my license test in a Scania
with a synchro box. Sent my wife for hers with an Autocar that had a 21 speed Volvo synchro trans. Just never caught on here and I guess got replaced
by the auto shifts across the pond. For those that whine about using the clutch, all of these had air assist clutches that you could push the pedal with
one finger.

Transmissions were plenty durable. That Scania I took my test in was a yard jockey, nothing but shifting all day long. It got a couple clutches through
the years, but never had an internal transmission problem. Got retired with about 30k hours on it because the cab and frame were rusted out.

I think of the Volvo’s we had, only one had an internal trans failure, that one got towed without removing the drive shaft, and they twisted the top shaft
off. It was a no no to do that. Always pull the driveshaft before towing a truck with a European transmission.

As to tractors, most current production is power shift or CVT or hydro. There are a few synchros in the economy models.
 
I have almost no flat ground here,, if you cant shift on a hill with out syncro's flat land makes no real change to me either way , but the ability to know how to shift does indeed ,, I ran old CAT triple six's with no syncro's all day long best know how to double clutch when running them or you was not running them,
 
(quoted from post at 05:44:21 09/21/20) the new large truck "automatics" aren't true automatics in the classic car and light/medium truck automatics

You can say that again.
That and electric throttle makes for such a lag time you learn not to pull out in front of someone.
They are very slow to get up to speed.
Click to expand...

John, for the last ten years I have been driving tri-axle dump truck part time for some friends who have a small excavation business. They have two Macks, one auto and the other 8LL. Going through a lot of lights on a two hour round trip haul, the auto would nearly lap the 8LL in 6 trips over the same route. I almost always drove the 8LL because the other driver would be another old guy like me, so after the first day I would lay myself out a faster route with as few lights and stops as possible so that I could keep ahead of the other guy. The auto gets up to speed very quickly.
 
(quoted from post at 06:48:38 09/21/20)
(quoted from post at 05:29:16 09/21/20)
Synchronizing a heavy truck transmission is to say that the driver will be using the clutch for all shifts which is simply not realistic except for over-the-road long haul.
Click to expand...

Yet pushing the clutch TWICE between shifts IS realistic???

That makes no sense. A lot of trucking companies you're fired on the spot if you're caught "floating" gears.
Click to expand...


Barnyard, WHY WOULD ANYONE CLUTCH TWICE? Except maybe on a steep hill where you need to drop two in one shift, or coming out of L or LL?
 
I spend a lot of hours on farm tractors, and the old
tractors with no powershift or syncro are fine for
field operations, but are a real drag if your regular
farm work involves hauling heavy loads down the
road 4-5 miles or more. And my old 966 IH is a
good tractor to stick into gear and chop corn or
plough all day, but even at a stand still that tractor
has the crummiest gear shifter set ever designed,
and hates to shift. I liked the part syncro part power
shift my old CaseIH 5140 had. 4speed shifter and a
4 position power shift. Best I have ever had.
 
I have enough time shifting non-sync Ag tractors on the fly, they aren’t built for it (no foot throttle) and it can be dangerous on a hill with a load as they tend to have terrible brakes too. Meanwhile sync shift tractors you are fine all day.
 
(quoted from post at 09:35:34 09/21/20)
(quoted from post at 06:48:38 09/21/20)
(quoted from post at 05:29:16 09/21/20)
Synchronizing a heavy truck transmission is to say that the driver will be using the clutch for all shifts which is simply not realistic except for over-the-road long haul.
Click to expand...

Yet pushing the clutch TWICE between shifts IS realistic???

That makes no sense. A lot of trucking companies you're fired on the spot if you're caught "floating" gears.
Click to expand...


Barnyard, WHY WOULD ANYONE CLUTCH TWICE? Except maybe on a steep hill where you need to drop two in one shift, or coming out of L or LL?
Click to expand...

Because, you have to double clutch every time you shift a heavy truck transmission like the 10, 13, 18 speeds. Boss says if he catches you floating gears, he'll string you up by your toenails before sending you packing with your pink slip.
 
Because you HAVE to double clutch a heavy truck transmission? That's the most hilarious load of BS I've heard in a while. Just because your boss prefers you to double clutch doesn't mean it's the only way to shift. I pulled unbaffled hydrochloric acid Super-B tankers (140,000 lbs gross) for a while, and gently floating the gears was the best way I found of controlling the slosh. When I sold my Western Star at 800,000 kilometers, the 18 speed transmission was still in mint condition, and the clutch was just starting to give out. Which didn't surprise me, after spending all its life lifting 140,000 lbs loads in often times soft ground, and absorbing the driveline surge of unbaffled liquid tankers.

The only truck I ever double clutched was an old Ford tandem with a 429 gas and 10 speed. That transmission just didn't like to shift any other way.

I personally don't care for autoshifts in heavy trucks. The Volvo I-Shift/Mack M-Drive is bearable, but the Eaton 18 Speed autoshift I ran was way too slow to shift and took forever to get up to speed. In soft conditions with a large load, the computer just can't keep up to what's happening and can't shift accordingly.
 
(quoted from post at 11:14:51 09/21/20) I have enough time shifting non-sync Ag tractors on the fly, they aren t built for it (no foot throttle) and it can be dangerous on a hill with a load as they tend to have terrible brakes too. Meanwhile sync shift tractors you are fine all day.
Click to expand...
I have two older tractors with no synchro and foot throttles (JD 2140 and Case 730) and for road driving it works great. Go through the gears as necessary to build up speed with only a little grinding. Does not seem to hurt them.
 
Some people love to argue JD versus IH just as others would argue Ford versus Chevy. I don't know how much technology mattered in the end during the horsepower race of the 1960's and 1970's. A JD 4020 diesel synchro typically could be bought for 100's less than an IH 806/856 equipped with a TA and that is all that mattered for quite a number of farmers. For a fair number of other farmers it was who was going to finance that new tractor and JD Financial Planning usually came through where other financial sources did not. I remember talking to a dealer many years ago in WNY and he said the biggest obstacle to him selling a piece of equipment was financing. He also said if his sales prospect wound up over at the JD dealership there was a very good chance that prospect was not coming back because getting money from JD was quick and painless versus begging the local banker. Also, when the Ford NH merger happened a dropped IH dealer turned FNH made the comment how he dreaded Ford Motor Co financing because they did not have a clue as to how agriculture worked.
 
The only big truck I ever drove very much was a Mack with an Allison 6 speed auto, hauling sugar beets, I was really impressed, lots of power, shifted quickly.
 
(quoted from post at 11:18:14 09/21/20)
(quoted from post at 09:35:34 09/21/20)
(quoted from post at 06:48:38 09/21/20)
(quoted from post at 05:29:16 09/21/20)
Synchronizing a heavy truck transmission is to say that the driver will be using the clutch for all shifts which is simply not realistic except for over-the-road long haul.
Click to expand...

Yet pushing the clutch TWICE between shifts IS realistic???

That makes no sense. A lot of trucking companies you're fired on the spot if you're caught "floating" gears.
Click to expand...


Barnyard, WHY WOULD ANYONE CLUTCH TWICE? Except maybe on a steep hill where you need to drop two in one shift, or coming out of L or LL?
Click to expand...

Because, you have to double clutch every time you shift a heavy truck transmission like the 10, 13, 18 speeds. Boss says if he catches you floating gears, he'll string you up by your toenails before sending you packing with your pink slip.
Click to expand...

Barnyard, Just because your boss has an unusual opinion the rest of the world doesn't stop and change to suit him. Tell him this: I once drove a heavy Mack for a friend for just a few days as a favor where we made 250 stops per day. He taught me how to START and STOP without using the clutch.
 

Never drove a heavy truck with a syncro, just non sync boxes. Keep in mind a road ranger does have synchros....on the air shifted range change, i.e. 5th to 6th on a 10 speed, the switch flick is syncronized with an air shifter moving it, the main lever throw is not.

Crash box in a tractor is different story.

I run both synchro and unsynchro tractors, in road haulage no real difference pulling rolling loads on a hard surface at speed, but I don't have to clutch the unsynchro tractor, just float the gears like a heavy truck.

In the field, the crash box is a pain, very rarely can you make a shift on the move, must come to a complete stop. Synchro tractor stab the clutch and move the stick. Can even do that with a non rolling load if needed.

Powershift really shines in tillage work, upshift and no interruption of power, just accelerate, sync and unsync you come to a stop the moment you clutch.
 
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