Gas vs diesel

Well since you brought it up,Gas was a thing of the past for a good reason (talking about heavy equipment),and I suppose it still has it's place to those who are still living in 20th century and think that diesels won't start in winter or are completely impossible to repair.BUT lets be honest,direct injecion diesels start just as good as gas motors in cold weather.My old 1966 massey ferguson backhoe with a perkins ad3.152 DIRECT INJECTION DIESEL and who knows how many hours,has Never failed to start in freezing weather left in a open side barn,with no block heater or glow plugs always starts by the 4th revolution at the most.My point is,that those who think they can't get an old tractor (60s and earlier) with a diesel that cold starts reliably has their head in the sand,and even more so when talking about newer tractors.Same goes for working on diesels.They only need air,fuel,and compression,not that comlicated!think of it this way,on a gasser,you need to give it a tune up every couple years,you just change the fuel filter(s) every other oil changeThere is absolutely no replacement for the increased power,lugging ability,very modest fuel usage,and the undeniable fact that while they make more power,and more torque,they run at half the rpm,which means they last twice as long!

Rock
 
sv,

I tried to reply twice. As far as I was taught, friction is a cubed component. Double the speed, equals 8 times the friction. If diesels run at half the speed of an equivalent gas engine with equal loads, it would have one eight the friction ( wear).

D.
 
Switching to LP was stopped by the government years ago,surcharges and added taxes had us switching back to gas in the late 70s. I still have two kits in moms shed.
 
I will add that CNG will never be widespread became the cost of the pump is just too high,and the tanks are too small.
 
My landlord had his 4010 diesel overhauled and I don't know what they did but its incredible. I wanted to move it last winter on a zero degrees day and I asked him to plug it in for awhile before I came over. He said heck no it'll start. I took the ether along just in case but it fired right off. I was stunned. He blows snow with it and never plugs it in.
 
Fifty-five years ago the winters were colder and the manure got piled up high waiting for the day the ground was froze enough. Gas Case 350 with loader would always start and we would chain to the 830 diesel for a trip out to the road looking for a bare spot not covered with snow. Wheels always wanted to turn backwards, never really understood how that could be, but eventually the 830 would come to life, and away we went hauling our smelly loads to the fields, trying not to freeze. Occasionally, the spreader would break through the frozen ground, and the only recourse was to dump the load in one spot, to be spread out later in the spring by the 350 with the loader. Look out when plowing with the 830, talk about a wet spot with a smell. Anyway, my point being is that back in the day each fuel had it's place.
 
Believe me when it hit 25 below and the tractor didn’t bave enough diesel treat in it i wanted a gas 3010 3020 4020 4010 thats how my 3020 came to live here although im glad it’s a diesel don’t really know how you turn up a gas with a few wrenches
 
Farmer Rock, I'm not going to argue with any of your points here.
I would like to ask though, what about the guys who own a tractor
to put in food plots and only use it once or twice a year and most
of that at idle or slightly above? Or, they only run it for a few minutes
at a time and it never gets fully up to true operating temperature?
How well does that play with a diesel? Especially the older ones?
I have one slobbering all over right now. It sat for 9 months to a
year before I drug it home and started to fix it up.
 
Well,gas vs diesel is a double edged sword. A gas in cold or cooler is a better starter.diesel does start ok if it is a good engine and has good fuel. Bad fuel or not enough anti gel and big problems. Never had gasoline gel. Maintenance is a big consideration,most diesels have multiple batteries, meaning network of cables, and extra batteries. This leads to increased maintenance cost over a one battery gasoline regiment, and increased time/labor/cost/down time to repair, maintain, service diesel vs gasoline electrical. Upkeep cost. gasoline fuel filter, oil filter, belts, oil, and amount of oil all come into play for a machine I need to use. Diesel costs more, filters more expensive and take longer to change, gasoline cheap and fast, oil for diesel is more and typically a diesel takes more of that expensive oil. gasoline faster and cheaper, again. not to mention that the cost of fuel additive in your diesel adds up to about the cost of plugs and wires and distributor parts in your gasoline. diesel parts are almost always more, like a starter, like a fuel lift pump, gasket for valve lash adjustment.

Now, lets elaborate into a more long term maintenance regime. diesel typically has more electrolysis issues in coolant system meaning coolant service is more important and fluid is more expensive if done correctly. In circumstances of longevity, keep in mind that a gasoline breaks down its oil from a shear effect and fuel contamination. diesel breaks down its engine oil from a different effect of depositing soot into the oil, over time reacting with cold/heat cycles and moisture and actually developing sulfuric acid within the crankcase causing severe wear sometimes prematurely. Another reason why starting and stopping a diesel more often can definetly shorten lifespan of oil and therefore prematurelydamage your engine. If that engine started only 10 times and ran for 15 hours a time, that is 150 hours that is nearly harmless versus starting in 1500 times for 20 minutes at a time. the oil change interval should be adjusted accordingly.

I do a lot of farm work with a 130 horsepower turbo diesel tractor, and almost all the corn planting, hay raking, grain drilling is done at idle. you could take that turbo off and throw it away and never know the difference, and for that matter you could install a 100 horsepower gasoline engine and I would almost bet a small fortune that at the end of that tractor's lifespan, the gasoline would cost less money than the diesel, in respect to maintenance, economy, and simplicity. but theresale would suffer.
 
When I was employed at Dallas Peterbilt and Masters International it was not uncommon to see an over the road truck with a million miles on it. As an auto tech I have seen few gas engines with over 300,000 miles that have not been opened up at some point. They were Ford and Chevrolet pickup trucks. Normally Cummins with over 700,000 miles were running fine as the Dodge deteriorated around it. About the same with 7.3 PowerStroke.

Concerns over starting cold have been explained well enough. One thing to consider is some research Continental Engines has done. What they found is that the colder the operating temperature the greater the cylinder wear. For the 15-20 minutes it takes for a diesel to reach it's operating temp I personally would plug mine in, at least in the winter. That is a practice I followed when I owned a 7.3. When I worked on the fracking trucks I would have to idle them around the yard still hooked up and in 3rd for about 7 to 8 minutes to get them to operating temperature. If the work order came in early enough I would let them idle for 30 minutes. Still wouldn't be warmed up but it cut the drive time down to a couple of minutes before it was.

The cylinder wear is not limited to any fuel type.
 
Each to their own, i only like 2 kinds of engines now, diesel and 2 cycles. I have 2 diesel tractors, and a diesel pickup. I have chevy 3500 with a 350ci 182,000 on it been a great truck, i also have a chevy k20 which i put a sb 400ci in, another great truck and I always loved the old chevy mouses. In 2004 i bought my 2000 f250 7.3 diesel, tows much easier than the gasers, 228,000 miles on it now and only needed a water pump, easy oil filter change, easy fuel filter change, and if it gets down to 30* +_ i plug it in, threw November, after that i dont take the truck out on NY salty roads, not until next april. My ford 4610 is also diesel, 4300 hours on it, had it since 1990, hasent needed anything but oil changes, and fuel filters, Plug it in when i had to clean the barn in the winter, started right up, heck even my friends old case 400 diesel being plugged in for 1/2 hour would start right up in January, Myself, ill take those kind of older diesels anyday over a gas engine.


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Now my quest is to find an older diesel mower!
 
I have a few old gas tractors, but they are no longer used for any actual farm work , they are small old tractors and I have nothing for them to do. At one time I did all my farm work with gas tractors, and they were all old when I bought them and cheap, and while gas cost more than diesel, what I saved on tractor price it worked for me. As my farm grew, and I worked more ground I needed larger tractors there were no gas tractors being built by 1984 , so I bought a new diesel tractor, IH 584 brand new $11,000.00 and 52 hp. Didn’t cost anymore to fuel it than my smaller gas tractor did, but fuel jelling was sometimes an issue.
I think the modern diesel tractor engines are great, and start well in cold temperatures, but fuel jelling can still occur some years. I believe it has more to do with how fuel is refined than cold temperatures.
The big draw back of modern diesel tractors is the emissions junk they put on them. As there is no modern gas tractors, who knows what kind of emissions junk would be loaded on to them.
I have some 5 ton gas trucks, they live gas, and like cooler temperatures . I do think my gas trucks would be better runners if they were modern gas and not old carburetor/points style.
Too many diesel pickup trucks rot away from the body’s. To justify the extra purchase price and maintenance cost of a diesel pickup, you need to be driving that truck 500,000 miles in ten years. Drive a gaser 50,000 miles per year, and it will probably fail. Myself I like a new truck maybe once every ten years, and don’t drive anything close to enough to ever consider a diesel pickup.
My two largest diesel tractors each get between 400-500 hours every year, and the rest of my tractors combined would only get another 300 hours between the 4 of them.
 
I can only speak to the automotive end of this discussion, but I advise my customers against buying a modern emissions diesel. Or at least really think about why they want it. Do they truly need it? My advice is, if you aren't going to put 300K+ on it in less than 10 years, you will never realize the savings on mpg. Any savings in fuel will be more than eaten by maintenance and repairs.

I also firmly believe emergency equipment should go back to gas. Modern diesel emissions are too finicky to be trustworthy in life or death situation. Our county has had a person expire in an ambulance while the emission system decided it was killing flowers and speed limited the truck to 5mph.
 
We have a 2 year old backhoe at work with all the emissions crap on it and it decided to do nothing but idle in the middle of digging up a broken water main. Luckily we were able to go to the shop and get another machine to finish. Right now we have a tandem dump truck that the DPF has failed, the parts alone are just over $3500 to fix
 
I agree. I have an older midsize gas truck and an 02 Dodge with the diesel. I dislike all the emission components on the newer diesels.
 
Where do you guys get this twice engine speed stuff. Our H and the old Massey-Harris and the old Case all run about 1800-2000 rpms wide open. Our diesels all run about 1800-2600 rpm. This is in the tractors. Now yes the cars run a top of about 5000 rpm though when was the last time you saw the car or pickup out pulling tillage equipment, or pulling the planter. Yes I know back in the late 70's GM showed a pickup plowing just one pass for a commercial. My semis only run about 1500-2100rpms. They pull along at 1175on the newer one at 60 and 1500at 70 the older one runs 1600 at 60 and still only 2100 wide open.
As for the gas they do take less oil per change and the intervals are shorter so that is a moot issue also. Fuel filters will cost some more than the fuel filter in your gas though the fooling around with that inherent sputter and puke about the time you need throttle and fussing with the choke to keep it running in cold weather till it warms up. I've had gassers that didn't start all that well when it was cold too. The diesels other than our 574 all started in cold weather though I religiously like to plug them in below about 20-30 degrees. It is much easier on the engine starting without that raw fuel going by the rings till it starts and the lesser cylinder wear. Also warms up much faster.
As for the battery argument with the group 31 's with a stud top I need to clean them when I put them in and when I put the next set in. Nothing between times. They will be clean and working fine till they are needing replaced. 3-7 years later when shot.
 
Royse-It is not good for any engine,new or old,gas or diesel, to just idle around all day and hardly ever get a work
out.Diesels will take the abuse better,but idling around is pretty much the worst thing you can do for an engine.I am not
saying don't idle your equipment,in cases like you are talking about,you have to,but if you want the engine to last long,I
suggest getting it up to temperature before parking the tractor.You have to look at it this way-When idling,there is an excess
of fuel that's not being burnt,which creates soot in the engine,and no longer burns clean like the engine is supposed to.I
have always been told,one hour of idling,is equal to two hours of driving.

Rock
 
How about the little 3 cylinder diesels used in everthing for over the past 30 years (including tractors).They run 3000-3500 rpms and yet they last twice as long.

Rock
 
One thing that I think has been overlooked, I believe the military switched to all diesel, probably for safety, and simplicity. A few years ago Polaris made some diesel 4-wheeler s for them. Most recent military activities have been in warm climates, so starting isn't an issue, and if a fuel tank gets hit by a bullet diesel is much safer. And, they can pretty much use the same fuel in everything, from aircraft, helicopters, and ground vehicles.
 
I run gas and diesels each has their place as far as I'm concerned,the application is the key to which is best.Sometimes it really doesn't matter as what the capabilities of the tractor are and what suits the job I'm doing is more important than what fuel the motor is running.
 
Due to the problems with the emissions controls on the new diesels, I can see gas tractors coming back for the <70 HP lightly used tractors(our 20 year old has 3000 hours). It would lower the purchase price and alleviate most cold weather problems. There has been giant improvement in gas engines since they were put in farm equipment. Electric would be the most sensible but they will never get the price competitive. As long as the government environmentalist are involved we will all get the dirty end of the stick!
 
Military engines are exempt from any emissions rules. You should see the smoke a V903 will put out!
 
Modern industrial gas engines... how many million forklifts have been built with GM V6s in them? Good durable engines that run for many hours with little woes. Yes most run on propane for indoor use, but many are dual fuel and will swap to gas at the flip of a switch.

I think a 100hp farm tractor with a 2.7 Ford eco boost would be a heck of a machine.
 
Emergency vehicles should remain diesel forever. A solution should be found for the situation that you describe, but a gasoline powered vehicle is definitely NOT the solution.

Back in the late 1980s, there was a big problem with gasoline powered ambulances bursting into flames when they were being refueled. Research was done and the cause was determined.

That cause was the combination of the way the vehicles were used and how they were outfitted with aftermarket accessories. First thing was the way they were run. Going to of from an emergency call was no problem. But what happened AT the emergency call WAS a problem. Engines were idled up to a high idle generating a lot of heat. Full width mud flaps, low to the ground running boards, and such were trapping that heat under the vehicle. This was causing the gasoline in the fuel tank to boil. If it reached a critical point, it would become explosive. When the filler cap was removed, the fuel would boil furiously and spray out of the filler neck - potentially dousing the personnel fueling the vehicle with rapidly vaporizing gasoline. The slightest spark would set it on fire.

Quite a few emergency personnel were burned to death by flaming gasoline. In some cases, injured people being prepared for transport were also burned to death.

Ford Motor Company did extensive research on this problem. They issued an extensive recall that involved rerouting fuel lines, extensive heat shielding on exhaust systems, multiple heat deflectors, redesigned fuel fillers that required you to release the pressure in the fuel tank prior to being able to remove the filler cap, and a host of other modifications.

The most important modification was that Ford would no longer sell or warranty their vehicles for ambulance service with gasoline engines. Either go diesel or you're on your own.

I do agree that in a critical emergency situation, an engine going into "limp mode" presents a big problem, but there could be some sort of emergency exemption built in for service as an emergency vehicle. Something to satisfy the tree huggers while not putting injured folks at excessive risk.
 
Military runs JP8, not diesel. JP8 is a stable hydrocarbon fuel that can run in things from heaters, to diesel engines, to jet fuel applications.
 
(quoted from post at 09:20:25 09/16/20) Royse-It is not good for any engine,new or old,gas or diesel, to just idle around all day and hardly ever get a work
out.Diesels will take the abuse better,but idling around is pretty much the worst thing you can do for an engine.I am not
saying don't idle your equipment,in cases like you are talking about,you have to,but if you want the engine to last long,I
suggest getting it up to temperature before parking the tractor.You have to look at it this way-When idling,there is an excess
of fuel that's not being burnt,which creates soot in the engine,and no longer burns clean like the engine is supposed to.I
have always been told,one hour of idling,is equal to two hours of driving.

Rock
I know it's not good for them, but we all know it happens.
Start the loader tractor, load what you need to load, shut it off.
Not good for any of them.
That's what happened to this one.
Now it slobbers and it's a struggle to keep the oil clean.
 

The problem was the aftermarket company that placed the ambulance body on the Ford Chassis.
If diesels were only Tier 1 , then they would be more practical, economical and reliable . The problem is the Tier IV and upcoming Tier V, Tier VI emission regulations.

Current EPA Tier 4 final standards reduce harmful emissions by about 85% 90%, but EPA Tier 5 would be focused on reducing these harmful emissions to zero with a large emphasis on eliminating ultra-fine particles of soot in diesel exhaust known as sub-micron level particles.

EPA Tier 5: What We Know So Far - Woodstock Power
 
(quoted from post at 18:28:29 09/15/20) Switching to LP was stopped by the government years ago,surcharges and added taxes had us switching back to gas in the late 70s. I still have two kits in moms shed.


504, could you substantiate that statement. I searched for government control of LP gas but nothing came up.
 

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