when to use non-detergent

The post below got me thinking about what applications to use non-detergent. I didn't want to hi-jack his thread. I was always under the impression to use non-detergent if there is no pump and it relies on splash lubrication. Being that the detergent additives will foam. I have a quart or 2 for non-detergent for my tiller and power washer. Everything else has an oil pump and therefore get detergent oil.

Is this the correct logic?

I would use non detergent ONLY.... for poured babbet bearing engines only... as the detergent would remove the bearing materials.

The additives that fight acids, piston scuffing, ring coking, keeping dirt from solidifying, anti foaming agents, viscosity stabilizers, are probably more needed in a lawnmower. Why would you not use the best?

Just the foaming is the reason I wasn't using detergent oil in them. Probably wouldn't make a difference, just something I heard over the years and seemed plausible.

How would a guy know if the engine has the poured babbet bearings, other than just being old?

If this were true my DC would have died years ago as it has
Babbitt bearings and has had detergent oil for decades.

Just for interest (and not really related to the post I don't think) ..... I had an old Frazer Rototiller years ago, it had a 2-stroke gas/oil mix engine. Factory manual called for non-detergent 20W oil to be mixed with the gas. Was that the recommendation for all two-stroke engines at one time? If it was, I wonder why that was recommended? Do you think that modern 2-stroke engine oil formulas (like Stil or Castrol 2-stroke motorcycle oil, etc) have detergents? I'm sure they do.

There's really not a lot of detergent in oil. It's basically the same thing with a few additives to help clean the engine and has anti-wear additives. Unless a particular machine has an issue with the oil foaming I would use detergent oil. The only time I've seen an
issue with oil foaming is in an air compressor. I worked for a guy that changed the oil in a compressor and didn't have any compressor oil so used regular motor oil. My lawn mowers and log splitter I don't have any issue with the oil foaming.

I was told many times to use detergent if you have an oil filter--the detergent keeps the sludge particles suspended so they can be filtered out--use non-detergent when no oil filter so the sludge can settled out

Bingo.

"Detergent" oil and oil filters go hand in hand. The sediment must be kept in suspension for the oil filter to remove it.

There is no need to use detergent oil in older engines without oil filters and there are situations when one should not.

Dean

(quoted from post at 07:38:01 08/11/20) The post below got me thinking about what applications to use non-detergent. I didn't want to hi-jack his thread. I was always under the impression to use non-detergent if there is no pump and it relies on splash lubrication. Being that the detergent additives will foam. I have a quart or 2 for non-detergent for my tiller and power washer. Everything else has an oil pump and therefore get detergent oil.

Is this the correct logic?

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My 2 cents on the topic;

Detergent = contains solvents

Solvent removes sludge and dirt and holds it in suspension in the oil.

Applications with an oil filter can remove a lot of this from the oil.

No filter applications you are using a lubricant that is holding more and more contaminants the longer it is in the unit.

Combustion engine with filtration system this is good as it keeps the engine cleaner.

Common to use non detergent oil on non combustion applications like piston style air compressors or gear boxes, better the small amount of contaminants settle to the bottom of the case and stay there instead of circulating through the gears and bearings.

I still have a Frazer tiller and have used detergent oil in it for several years now with no problems.

Have always used non detergent in oil bath air cleaners. Don't know if it makes a difference.

Non detergent in gas/oil mix for 2-strokes is because the additives in detergent oils will gum up in combustion....or so I'm told.

Detergent oil became available in the early 50's.

It came about as a new innovation, so it was not readily accepted, urban legends abound that it was to be avoided, it will ruin your engine!

Think about what else was happening in the early-mid 50's...

Technology was rapidly evolving. Automotive engines were coming out of the dark ages.

Prior to the 50's, engines were crude, oil burning, plug fouling, oil leaking, maybe get 50,000 miles out of one if you were lucky and babied it. Most had no oil filter, and if they did it was a bypass type filter that just filtered a small portion of the oil and returned it to the pan. It didn't matter if sludge was building up in an engine, it's life was so short you would be in there cleaning it out while you replaced the rings and tightened the bearings. Once engine life began to extend out, sludge became more of a problem, something needed to be done about it.

So was the oil industry evolving. They were coming up with new innovations to go along with the improved engines, and not just for the automotive industry.

About the only applications I can think of for non detergent oil would be for a survivor engine, one that had not been into since possibly new, that had only had non detergent oil, and you were wanting to extend it's originality as long as possible.

The other is for reciprocating compressors. Used to be they specified non detergent oil because the detergents would build carbon on the valves. I always took their word for it, but also saw old compressors that would still carbon the valves when worked hard, even with non detergent oil. Now compressor specific synthetics solve the problem. It runs so much cleaner, no more caked valves!

Yes, detergents did contribute to plug fouling and carbon build up on the hot side (exhaust port side) of the cylinder.

The old 2 cycles ran lots of oil, like 16:1 ratio. If it wasn't running at it's rated RPM and load, it would load up with oil and foul the plug.

I remember they sold "white gas" at the marinas for outboards. It was an additive free fuel to help with the plug fouling and carbon build up.

The reality is there are very few engines that don't have babbitt. The layer next to the crank was always babbitt in the past.

amoco also sold white gas at the pump--i would go there with my outboard gas tank--and yes the mixture was 16 to 1

I have sold detergents by the truckload for many years and before that I sold it by the one ton truckload after buying it in by the truckload for many years. Very little of it would make any foam. In fact a lot of it contains defoamers because foam stops pumps from working. Detergent and foam don't go together unless the foaming ingredients are blended in. Not many detergents contain solvents either. Solvents tend to be expensive so they are added only if the specific application makes it advisable.

I use non detergent oil in my hydraulics on my H and M.

(quoted from post at 08:38:01 08/11/20) The post below got me thinking about what applications to use non-detergent. I didn't want to hi-jack his thread. I was always under the impression to use non-detergent if there is no pump and it relies on splash lubrication. Being that the detergent additives will foam. I have a quart or 2 for non-detergent for my tiller and power washer. Everything else has an oil pump and therefore get detergent oil.

Is this the correct logic?

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've bought a lot of small engines over the last 30 or 40 years. Riding mowers, push mowers, wood splitter, rototiller. The brands were primarily Kohler, Tecumseh, Briggs and Stratton. None of them came with an oil filter, none of them called for non-detergent oil. Most of them spec 10w30 in the owner's manual. I have also owned a Farmall F-12, F-14, F-20 and an M. I used 30 hd in those.

Just use the cheapest oil you can find. Books say same as engine but that is just to keep people from getting confused about what to use there.

The most common detergent is magnesium sulfonate. It also acts to neutralize acids. If anything, detergent oils will help the babbitt last longer.

The primary application for non detergent oil today is for starting arguments .

(quoted from post at 08:36:43 08/11/20) urban legends abound

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Funny how they STILL abound. The urban legends and myths will never die.

I don't know if any of you follow Deboss Garage on Youtube, but a while back he did a video on a teardown of a 5.0L Ford Coyote engine with a professional engine rebuilder. That engine rebuilder spouted off several of the common oil myths, and it drummed up so much controversy that they released a retraction video yesterday where the professional rebuilder explained away most of what he said by saying, "That's how they talk around the shop," and what they really meant was blah blah blah...

Talking "like that" around the shop is what perpetuates these myths. Regular folks don't know you're speaking in code and take your words literally. They then repeat it to everyone.

(quoted from post at 04:55:59 08/12/20)

(quoted from post at 08:36:43 08/11/20) urban legends abound

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Funny how they STILL abound. The urban legends and myths will never die.

I don't know if any of you follow Deboss Garage on Youtube, but a while back he did a video on a teardown of a 5.0L Ford Coyote engine with a professional engine rebuilder. That engine rebuilder spouted off several of the common oil myths, and it drummed up so much controversy that they released a retraction video yesterday where the professional rebuilder explained away most of what he said by saying, "That's how they talk around the shop," and what they really meant was blah blah blah...



Talking "like that" around the shop is what perpetuates these myths. Regular folks don't know you're speaking in code and take your words literally. They then repeat it to everyone.

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Barnyard, I think that applies to load securement too, LOL.