non-detergent oil help

Brians 8N

New User
Can someone shed some light on oil? I have 2 old tractors, one I have had for a while and the other one I just acquired. I know not to use detergent oil in these old tractors but other than buying oil on-line or having a store order it for me I am having a hard time finding non-detergent oil locally on the shelf (plus the cost is high). I have had stores try to sell me non-detergent lubricating oil saying it is the same as non-detergent motor oil. Even when I look it up on the internet, people advertise it as motor oil but the label on the bottle says lubricating oil. Both are SAE 30, but the bottle that says "lubricating oil" also says ISO 100. I know what the numbers mean I just don't what the difference is. I can't believe it is the same or that it is interchangeable but I can't find out what makes them different.
 
Both your tractors are very likely to have detergent oil in them right now and probably have for years. The is not one good reason not to use detergent oils in them. I have 2 many old tractors and all but 2 of them I use O'Reilly's brad 20W50 oil and and have for years and NEVER had any problems.

The 2 tractors I don't use that oil in is my IH584 Diesel and I use rotella 15W40
and my 1935 JD B and I use Valvoline 60W racing oil in it
 
Old is correct. If you use non-detergent oil you will not be making the engines happy. To discover if your tractors have non-detergent oil in them, Drain the oil, and then use a finger to feel inside the oil pan bottom. If your finger comes back with baby poop like black coating like a corn dog, then you need to rinse the engine by removing the valve cover (also filled with goop) by scraping off and cleaning the rockers, and pouring diesel fuel into the pushrod holes to flush the oil pan. then use detergent oil, and a new filter. 15-40 from a good brand name is best. Jim
 
You should be using detergent oil in cars or tractors. The non-detergent oil is for machinery such as air compressors or just lubricating. The only issue is the stroke on an air compressor is so fast and the volume of oil is so small a detergent oil will foam up and is why a non-detergent oil is used in that application. In a tractor the detergent oil was developed to help clean the valves and lifters as the engine is running. You didn't say if your tractors were gas or diesel. On a diesel tractor you should be using diesel oil such as Rotella. That type oil has more detergent in it than motor oil made for cars.
 
Both of the tractors I have are gas, a '44 Farmall H and a '47 8N. What I have read is that a 75 year old tractor that has never had the engine rebuilt needs to run non-detergent motor oil because new oils have additives in there that will dislodge the 75 years of accumulation and clog up oil passages. I have even read that in some forums. The guy who gave me the tractor uses non-detergent oil in his old JD and IH.
 
Continuing what everyone else wrote, the big deal with detergent/non-detergent oil is the sludge. Non-detergent oil does not keep the engine carbon in suspension, so it settles out like shoe polish at the bottom of the oil pan. Detergent oil does not allow the carbon (basically graphite) to settle out. So, there is some risk that if you have a lot of carbon sludge, then it could get mixed into the oil if you suddenly put non-detergent oil in there. I am not sure how big of a deal this is, but if you detect sludge like Janicholson described, I would drop the oil pan and scrape it out clean, do an engine flush with diesel fuel, a filter change, and then run only modern detergent oil from then on. I did this on my IH "A," and discovered probably 2-3 inches of muck, along with a well-preserved bumblebee from half a century ago, etc. Your tractors are probably due for it, and would thank you if they could talk.

The old engines originally used single-weight non-detergent oil since it was the only oil available. Now it is time for modern oil, modern anti-freeze, modern grease, etc. Some hydraulic systems, gas turbines, and other systems still use non-detergent, but those are very different applications.

The oil labelled "lubricating oil" you describe is probably non-detergent oil. I've attached a link to some options. You could use the "lubricating oil," but it will cost you more, both in terms of $$ and wear on the engine from reduced effectiveness. Good luck. Dave
Lubricating oil descriptions
 
I agree with others, drop the pan if you think they are severely sludged. Might look under the valve cover too. If it is severely caked with sludge, scrape and vacuum the sludge while the pan is off so what falls in will fall through. Also remove and clean the pick up screen and the crankcase vent tube.

Go back 15w40 DIESEL oil.

It is more closely matched to the old flat tappet cam engines.

Modern gas engine oil is designed around roller cams and complex emission systems, neither apply to your old engines.
 
That's what they say but if you have ever overhauled an engine the sludge is going to accumulate anyway even with detergent oils. The detergent oil will just slow down the accumulation, it's not going to break loose what is already there. A detergent oil is more likely to suspend the dirt so you can drain it out with an oil change. A car or tractor I usually will drain the oil right after it's been driven.
 
For what it's worth. Years ago while in high school: a friend bought a car that had always had non detergent oil run in it.(63 Ford Fairlane, 260v8 with Borg Warner 4 speed) . In a very short length of time it was using oil and smoke out exhaust. General theory was detergent oil had cleaned sludge and left components "loose " to allow oil to pass. Knowing the amount of sludge I have seen in some engines, I believe that is possible.
 
If you really think you need non detergent oil in it, you can get it at Tractor Supply. Look close at the labeling so you get motor oil and not lubricating oil.
 
I'm not sure how long though, my local store just clearanced the gallons for 4.00 a piece. They still will have quarts I guess.
 
Why a diesel oil vs a gasoline designed oil? Is there more zinc or certain additives that make it superior for old tractor engines? Or is it just to get the proper weight?

I bought (37$ 5 gallon pail) 10w-30 synthetic blend "cam 2?" brand to use for my next oil change, but i'm curious if i should swap for something closer to what you are using.

{1949 JD -A }
 
Non-detergent oil should only be used to lubricate door hinges. It does not belong in any engine regardless of age.
 
(quoted from post at 20:27:09 08/10/20) Non-detergent oil should only be used to lubricate door hinges. It does not belong in any engine regardless of age.

We use 30wt mineral oil for aircraft engine break in. Usually the first 10-15 hours to help seat rings, and allow any impurities left in the engine to settle out. After the initial mineral oil of 10-15 hours, we drain and replace with an ashless dispersant. As the names imply, it has no ash, so there is no acid based constituents from the products of combustion(lots of blowby in aircraft engine), and dispersant which is the detergent part of the additive package.

Other than this corner case, I agree - use a modern detergent motor oil in any internal combustion engine.
 
I still run Non Detergent oil in my M's. Engine and hydraulics. To hear folks talk now a day's it ain't worth a hoot. My M's like it just fine and if 71 years of longevity without any problems isn't proof I don't know what is.

Good non detergent oil is getting hard to find in the thinner wt's. The good news is these old engines and hydraulic systems do just fine with 30wt which is still available at most auto parts stores. Look in the motorcycle section, not where they keep regular engine oil.

And Yes you heard correctly. Detergent oil will wash sludge off and down into the oil pan. Detergent, well duh! That's what it's in there for. And yes you can use it in an old engine with oil changes at a more frequent interval. Especially the first one.
 
I have 11 tractors varying from 1926 to 1959. Ford, Oliver, Allis, McCormick, Hart-Parr and John Deere. They have all been run on detergent oil since I've had them and I've had the 27 D JD since 1964 when I was 11, some of the others since the 70s. They all have 15w40 in them except the D that has 30 weight. Have never had any problems.
 
Farm and Fleet sell this, MYSTIK 663113002181 30 weight non detergent oil.
This would be a good oil for 1930 as it is SA rated. TSC oil is SB rated and good for another 30 years or about 1962.
 
Used to work some at a car parts yard years ago,could always tell the motors that had run non detergent oil, under the valve cover the rocker arm area would be packed with crud.Gulf oil and Quaker State were the worst.
 
Dumb question:
Would a high detergent/strong solvent motor flush, like Gunk Motor Flush, be an easy way to remove some sludge without opening up an engine?

I ran that stuff through a V-8 engine just before having it worked on and the mechanic commented how clean it was inside. He asked if someone had worked on it recently,
 
The only thing I use non detergent oil in is my nail guns. That's what they recommend. I don't think that the seals in those guns stand up to the detergent. I use diesel oil in all small engines with flat tappets, because it has zinc in it.
 
I know My 8N has non-detergent oil in there because that is what I have been using. The Farmall I am pretty sure had non-detergent oil in it (The guy who gave me the tractor says he uses non-detergent in his other tractors). I just changed the oil in both tractors and I did not run my finger up into the oil pan so I don't know how much sludge is in either tractor. Dropping the oil pan on the Ford is kind of a big job and if I go that far I might as well pull the head and rebuild the engine. The farmall I don't know much about but Since it runs decent I don't want to create problems or create additional work by using detergent motor oil.

Thanks for input
 
Wasn't any point in putting your finger in the oil pan anyway. You change the oil before the engine gets cold so any crap will drain out. Doesn't matter if it's detergent oil or non detergent both do the same thing.

Another thing for the sludge guys. Change your oil regularly and don't overheat the engine and you won't have that problem. If you don't you will have a sludge problem no matter what oil you use. I have torn into several Mopar engines from 2,000 to 2010 that were caked up with crud to the point where they wiped out the bearings in under a hundred thousand miles. They looked no different from the bad engines in the fifties and sixties when you could dig a bucket full out of the top end.
 
Detergent and non-detergent oils do not do the same thing in an engine. The benefits of detergents in gasoline engines have been shown by repeated tests under arduous conditions for close to a century. No benefit is gained by using non-detergent oil except in special circumstances like air compressors and some hydraulic systems. My local auto parts store sells quarts of non-detergent oil at the same price as detergent oil, so no money is saved by skipping the detergent. If anything, detergent oil can be easily purchased in bulk at a discount--actually saving money. Engines using non-detergent oils also require more frequent oil changes--driving costs up further.

The sludge build-up in Mopars (usually Dodge Intrepids, but also others) was caused by poor crankcase ventilation and other design problems. It ultimately went to arbitration, and Chrysler ended up paying restitution. Had non-detergent oil been used in the same engines, the problems would have been even worse.

I've posted a link to a technical description of the various additives and what they do in modern oils.
Chapter on Oil additives
 
Evidently my post was misunderstood. I was simply talking about sludge left in the oil pan. Change it hot and there is no difference. Don't change your oil regularly and you will have sludge no matter what oil you use. Overheating cooks the oil as it drains back down and leaves sludge no matter which oil you use.

In no way did I imply high detergent oil wasn't beneficial. It just isn't always necessary and sometimes it's effects outweigh its benefits.
 

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