Submersible pump setup help

bc

Well-known Member
Hi guys. Been working on my 50 year old well. Tried Jim's air bubbler system and got spurts of water. Found a 30 year old monkey wards convertible jet pump on the junk pile that ran. Hooked it up with garden hose and no luck. Took the pump apart and the impeller was gone.

Bought a 2 horse, 14 stage, 35 gpm, 230 volt submersible and ran it in with a 100 foot of 1.25 inch PE pipe using .75 inch PE pipe for conduit. Right now I have it sitting at 120 feet with 2 garden hoses attached to the 1.25 inch pipe since the supply house has the 1.25 pipe on back order till later this week.

Well data is 169 feet deep with water originally at 20 feet with 8 inch steel casing that has rust breaking off the inside. Been pumping on it for a few days at 120 feet. After pipe comes in I will go on down to 150 or 160 feet. Volume for 8 inch ID casing is 2.611 gallons per foot.

Saturday I ran it till dry. Yesterday I ran the pump after a 24 hour wait and it pumped for 8 minutes 6 seconds before going dry. A 5 gallon bucket test a few times shows it fills in 20 seconds so it is pumping about 15 gpm and recharged 121 gallons in 24 hours. I hope it does better when I can run it on down towards bottom.

Question is how do I hook it up for garden watering use and have it automatically shut down if it runs dry as I don't want to burn the pump up? First thought I needed a pressure tank but now think I can use a pressure switch just using pipe pressure. I have an old 20/40 pressure switch and I need to hook up a gauge on the hose to see what pressure is coming out although it shoots out a solid stream about 10 feet from end of hose. I assume the increased head pressure when I drop it on down will cut back on the flow rate and pressure. If the well won't sustain 15 gpm then I need to close it down some. Still have to pump it a long time before I can test it as a bucket of water is cloudy and it has an strong iron taste. Thanks for the help.
 
What is unknown is where the water is getting into the casing. A well log would explain that. If it has peripheral holes and screens on the
bottom 10 feet, there may be enough inflow to keep it operating at a greater depth. If just a stub pipe, not much increase can be expected, but
some. If the water is muddy, the silt coming in can indicate that there is silt at depth that can limit inflow. Pumping the mud out might be a
tactic to consider. Silt will also destroy the impellers in the pump. An old fashion deep well rod pump with leathers my also work, but is less
service free (unless the impellers fail! Good luck. Jim
 
The best way to test that well is with industrial compressor blowing out at the bottom of the well, most well drillers can do that and give you test results.
 
you would need to run a 1" hose to the bottom and blow everything out with air. need big compressor and volume. it could possibly be sludged
off. maybe it can be re-perferated at the water level. dont know how the motor would shut down if you have no pressure to stop it. would
need a close eye on it to manually shut it down. if i am thinking correctly lol.
 
Seems you have too large of a pump, i.e. 35 gpm and 2 horse. Maybe it would pump 5 gpm continuous.

There are pressure switches that will shut off if pressure goes to near zero. You then have to hold switch until it
gets back up in operating range. Requires a pressure tank probably.
 
All you have to do is throttle the outlet to restrict the flow.

Throttle it to about 10 GPM and see how long it takes to run dry.
 
First of all, this post is coming from someone with a 2 GPM well. I've done a LOT of research on wells, but focused on areas more like ours, with a normally-high water table.

The way to rate a well is to pump out a measured amount of water and then calculate the capacity of the well. In your instance, you ran a 35 GPM pump for 8 mins 6 secs after the well having 24 hours to recharge. In my opinion, that well is not working. Water is not able to flow into the well.

You "may" be able to improve that, but with this being an old well, we have no way of knowing if maybe the well was abandoned at some point and someone put a little concrete down it.

Without knowing your soil conditions (surface and below-ground), I cannot say what the best 'fix' might be for restoring the well. Sometimes high-pressure air is blown into wells to "unclog" tiny particles that have, over time, blocked the holes coming into the well. Some people use a blast, such as from a gun. I've never done anything like that so don't look to me for advice there.

You could try blowing your well with air if you have access to an air tank with a dump valve - kinda like those used to set tire beads. Wait a while and then try the well again.

As mentioned, we also don't know if water is able to permeate through a screen portion of the lower casing, or if the only access for the water is the bottom hole. If it were me, I'd try to research that well and see if I could find that information. Two sources that come to mind are 1. the land abstract and 2. the county records concerning wells.Your state may also keep such records. You may be able to find out who dug the well also.

Just went back to your original post. You wrote,
"[i:72764f3367]We have a 50 year old well that has never been used. They tested it and it was high in nitrates so it didn't get used. I need help on how to set it up, pump type and pipe.

Checked it today. It is 169 feet deep, only 18 feet to the water level, and has 8 inch ID steel casing that is cut flush with the ground and cemented in[/i:72764f3367]."

If the well was abandoned by the well drillers, then the well would have been sealed. That would explain the extremely low capacity of the well. I'm guessing they dropped concrete down the well to seal it, but concrete is porous and can allow moisture to permeate through. In my opinion, the ONLY way you're going to get that well going again is to break that concrete.

The method I would try is to find a long, heavy chunk of steel with no sharp edges that could damage the casing, attach a long rope, and repeatedly drop the weight down the well to break up the seal. This would work better if the water were pumped out prior to dropping, but may work with the water there. This is the same method used by people drilling their own well in arid, rocky areas (see link to video). Keep in mind, if this well was sealed by the well driller and is listed by the county as sealed, you may be breaking laws if you attempt to break that seal. You could either talk to your county agent that handles wells and ask permission (if allowed, there would likely be permits, fees and testing involved), or you could just do it and take your chances.

Good luck!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbK_wJaf-Vw (<-- very good)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRBcefm0YAU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7a_4SonWc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzper53sfiU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBUEX85jLTI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2xW8YG4LdM
 
Sounds to me like you bought too big a pump! A 1/2 or 3/4 would of been better, if you throttle the discharge on this big pump to prevent the well from going dry your going to create some very high pressures, make sure your piping is rated for it. You do need a pressure tank and a pressure control switch with a low pressure cut off, that will shut the pump off when you run out of water.
 
https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/pumps-tanks/pump-well-tank-accessories/merrill-m4-30-50-pressure-switch-with-low-
pressure-cut-off/mpsm43050gcp/p-1444439505207-c-8672.htm

Water pressure switch with low pressure cut-off!
 


bc, Roger in Iowa has it right. A BIG irrigation nozzle is 5 GPM. get a 2 gpm. and run it for 3-4 hours at a time. You have a BIG pump. Much bigger than you need to water a garden. Also as Roger said get a pressure tank and a control with the low pressure cut-off for just in case. FYI, well casings go down only to solid rock. In most parts of the world that is less than 50 feet. The well driller seals the casing to the rock.
 

Needs a large pressure tank, the larger the better . 30 gallon or more .
As others have stated . The pump is 4 times too large for that well in it's current condition .
Also as previously stated the well needs an air blast .
Where are you located in the country ?
 


Thanks guys. Update. My in laws had it drilled sometime after 1962. Water test showed too high in nitrates so it just sat with a rock over the top all these years. I suspect that it is cased so deep with open hole below. The driller would have been required to cement the casing through all the surface zones but don't know how far the casing runs. Don't know who the driller was but it was never completed. This is in central Kansas probably about 10 miles west of the equess beds but not in them where the good water is. Have no other information. I suppose I could always run a 6 inch PVC liner in the well if necessary.

I may try to run my go pro camera with a flashlight to see what can be seen. I can run a piece of pipe on a rope and hammer on the bottom for a while to see what it stirs up.

I bought a big pump because they are too expensive to buy and then find out I wasted money on one too small. Too expensive to have a driller move back in for a test. This will be an expensive test as it is with 300 feet of wire, etc. Knowing it had some sediment in it, I put a couple wraps of window screen clamped around it.

Tested tonight after 26 hours of rest. Added a pressure gauge and quarter turn hose nozzle. Started flowing with 10 psi. Started to close the valve and it jumped up to 135 psi. Opened it back up to flow steady at 100 psi. It flowed for 17 and a half minutes. Bucket test was 40 seconds for 5 gallons which computes out to 6.67 gpm. Total output was about 116 gallons which comes out to just under 4.5 gallons an hour recovery rate.

Still waiting on more pipe then I will pull it and run the camera etc. If the switch on a pressure regulator means it cuts off at low pressure and then I need to reset it manually to restart the pump then I can live with that. I will have to experiment with choking it to run at 60 psi. Thanks for your help so far. Will try another test tomorrow evening at 60 psi.
 
(quoted from post at 20:17:50 07/27/20)

Thanks guys. Update. My in laws had it drilled sometime after 1962. Water test showed too high in nitrates so it just sat with a rock over the top all these years. I suspect that it is cased so deep with open hole below. The driller would have been required to cement the casing through all the surface zones but don't know how far the casing runs. Don't know who the driller was but it was never completed. This is in central Kansas probably about 10 miles west of the equess beds but not in them where the good water is. Have no other information. I suppose I could always run a 6 inch PVC liner in the well if necessary.

I may try to run my go pro camera with a flashlight to see what can be seen. I can run a piece of pipe on a rope and hammer on the bottom for a while to see what it stirs up.

I bought a big pump because they are too expensive to buy and then find out I wasted money on one too small. Too expensive to have a driller move back in for a test. This will be an expensive test as it is with 300 feet of wire, etc. Knowing it had some sediment in it, I put a couple wraps of window screen clamped around it.

Tested tonight after 26 hours of rest. Added a pressure gauge and quarter turn hose nozzle. Started flowing with 10 psi. Started to close the valve and it jumped up to 135 psi. Opened it back up to flow steady at 100 psi. It flowed for 17 and a half minutes. Bucket test was 40 seconds for 5 gallons which computes out to 6.67 gpm. Total output was about 116 gallons which comes out to just under 4.5 gallons an hour recovery rate.

Still waiting on more pipe then I will pull it and run the camera etc. If the switch on a pressure regulator means it cuts off at low pressure and then I need to reset it manually to restart the pump then I can live with that. I will have to experiment with choking it to run at 60 psi. Thanks for your help so far. Will try another test tomorrow evening at 60 psi.


bc, once you put in your tank and the pump is controlled off-on by the pressure switch there is no need to "choke it down" your irrigation nozzle will want to run around 30-40 psi but you will have friction loss in your hose. If you are running much distance from your well put in one inch poly pipe. It will greatly reduce friction loss. IMPORTANT!!! set your control for a minimum 20 lbs range between on and off. It will come preset at something like 20-40 lbs. thirty lbs range is better.
 
Years ago when I was a kid I remember firing a handgun into
the well to open it. Has to be straight down. The goal isn’t to
hit the side, it is to shock wave the junk loose and get water
flowing. We always did it to windmill wells (central Kansas) so
the demand wasn’t high, but it worked every time.
 
With the new information, we still don't know for sure what the bottom configuration looks like. I think you need a pump that matches the well
capacity. Trading that one back in with less than 2 hours on it might just buy a 5 to 8 gpm pump that will operate less expensively, and produce the
water that the well allows. Pumping it from 10 feet above the bottom for 20 hours will eventually clear up the silt. It may also improve the rate if
recharge. Jim
 

You got me thinking Notjustair. Back in 65 I was 13 driving combine on my first wheat harvest. Stopped at Sidney Nebraska at this station a mile east of town. Little trailer park where all the custom harvesters parked their trailers. One rainy day we were all in camp and the sewer system backed up. I took the hose loose and dropped a M80 down the pipe trying to clear it. It didn't fix the backup but it sure blew you know what all over the place.

Behind the station was Union Pacific's 2 track main line. Constant mile long trains with grain and pacific fruit express cars. Going west they slowed down to go into Sidney so we could hop a freight going to town. Going back they were picking up speed so I didn't risk going much more than half way before hopping off.
 
The well does produce some water. The
pump is way too big. A solar pump
would be my choice. Half gallon per
minute and small pipe required.

For your current pump a pumpsaver
could solve your problem. It is just
a small gizmo that goes in control
box, it senses when pump goes dry and
shuts it off, can be set to turn on
30 minutes later or other. Costs
about $115. Much better than pressure
switch type, resets automatically. It
will work without pressure switch or
tank.
 
(quoted from post at 23:17:50 07/27/20)

Thanks guys. Update. My in laws had it drilled sometime after 1962. Water test showed too high in nitrates so it just sat with a rock over the top all these years. I suspect that it is cased so deep with open hole below. The driller would have been required to cement the casing through all the surface zones but don't know how far the casing runs. Don't know who the driller was but it was never completed. This is in central Kansas probably about 10 miles west of the equess beds but not in them where the good water is. Have no other information. I suppose I could always run a 6 inch PVC liner in the well if necessary.

I may try to run my go pro camera with a flashlight to see what can be seen. I can run a piece of pipe on a rope and hammer on the bottom for a while to see what it stirs up.

I bought a big pump because they are too expensive to buy and then find out I wasted money on one too small. Too expensive to have a driller move back in for a test. This will be an expensive test as it is with 300 feet of wire, etc. Knowing it had some sediment in it, I put a couple wraps of window screen clamped around it.

Tested tonight after 26 hours of rest. Added a pressure gauge and quarter turn hose nozzle. Started flowing with 10 psi. Started to close the valve and it jumped up to 135 psi. Opened it back up to flow steady at 100 psi. It flowed for 17 and a half minutes. Bucket test was 40 seconds for 5 gallons which computes out to 6.67 gpm. Total output was about 116 gallons which comes out to just under 4.5 gallons an hour recovery rate.

Still waiting on more pipe then I will pull it and run the camera etc. If the switch on a pressure regulator means it cuts off at low pressure and then I need to reset it manually to restart the pump then I can live with that. I will have to experiment with choking it to run at 60 psi. Thanks for your help so far. Will try another test tomorrow evening at 60 psi.

You can not choke back the discharge on a centrifugal liquid pump to control flow . The inlet side can be throttled although this can cause cavitation in the pump.
The pump with 14 stages is built to make up to 700psi for a 1000+ ft deep well. The pump should have been 1/2 HP and approx 5 stages .
Only solution now is one of those variable frequency single phase pump drives . They even have run dry protection. https://www.aquascience.net/goulds-aquavar-solo-2tm-1as15-1-2-to-2hp-230v-2-3-wire-single-phase-constant-pressure-controller
Years ago during a stunned moment . I purchased from e-bay a variable drive for my well's submersible pump.........but purchased the incorrect size drive. it would probably control your well's pump volume and pressure .
Is your pump two or three wire ?
 

I hopefully will know more this next week on the bottom of the hole. Just went to the VA yesterday and had a medial branch block (4 shots of depomedrol in my lower back. Guess it is time to rig up an a frame and winch to help pull the well. The pump itself weighs 35 pounds.

When it all sorts out I will have hundreds of feet of water and electric lines waiting to rent a big ditcher for a weekend. Over a hundred feet to a faucet for the front yard flowers, 200 feet to the garden, plus another hundred feet to our large and growing pet graveyard/flower patch. Besides 58 years of cats and dogs, we just added a horse and donkey in the last year. Plenty of flowers that need water. Plus another 250 feet of RWD line out to the barn and some internet cable as well. Today I will go to the machine shop to check on progress on my 2606 engine as they haven't called. Thanks everyone!!!
 
it is brand new , unused in the box . Constant pressure , flow control , run dry protection . Want it ?
mvphoto59290.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 09:54:27 07/28/20) firing a handgun into
the well .

Most of us would rather avoid adding lead to our drinking water . There are 100% copper handgun, rifle and shotgun loads.
 

Thanks. Pump is made by Hallmark Industries 230 volt with 2 wire plus ground. Bot it on Amazon for 185 bux. Easier on cost than the local smaller ones for 400 to 500 bux. You can look up the specs on Amazon. They do have smaller ones. Probably China made but despite the reviews it all looks like good quality to me. Will see. Also bot 300 feet of 12 Guage wire for under 200 but. That also is good quality made in USA and sold by Kalas. I can post pics if that helps.
 
B&D,

You are incorrect, throttling the output on centrifugal is a common way to control flow, but cannot be done on a positive displacement pump. The pump curve sheets will show you how much the pump can be pinched back and what the results will be. It is becoming much more common now to use a VFD. A centrifugal pump will draw maximum amps with no back pressure, and running without can burn them up if no overloads, as they run out past the curve. I do not know how the curve is on this particular pump.

In this particular case, a 14 stage centrifugal is probably a fairly tight pump and pinching may cause excess pressure, but it will still perform according to the curve it was designed for.
 

Will check on it and let you know. Thanks. And if dropping a pipe on a rope into the bottom doesn't help, then maybe a 30 round magazine from the AR might do the trick. I want to pump on it for a while first once I get the pump down towards bottom this week. Britt
 

They have the performance specs on Amazon for the Hallmark Industries pump. Their biggest one for 185 but. I would rather deal with a 200 but screw up than a 500 but one. Thanks
 
(quoted from post at 11:20:12 07/28/20) B&D,

You are incorrect, throttling the output on centrifugal is a common way to control flow, but cannot be done on a positive displacement pump. The pump curve sheets will show you how much the pump can be pinched back and what the results will be. It is becoming much more common now to use a VFD. A centrifugal pump will draw maximum amps with no back pressure, and running without can burn them up if no overloads, as they run out past the curve. I do not know how the curve is on this particular pump.

In this particular case, a 14 stage centrifugal is probably a fairly tight pump and pinching may cause excess pressure, but it will still perform according to the curve it was designed for.

The excessive power demand and heavy loading of the pump makes choking back the discharge impractical. Possible but impractical . Just too much mismatch . Dumping a lot of energy in the form of heat into the water.
If the pump had fewer stages, discharge throttling would be improved but not ideal .
Controlling the frequency and rpm is the most practical solution given this particular pump.
 


Anyone who has ever been a firefighter and has paid attention at all when pumping can tell you that a big diesel will not work at all unless the pump is moving water. You can be showing 150 lbs which the auto controllers are usually preset for, yet be only running at a fast idle. Start flowing 500 GPMs through a five inch line, and then you will hear that diesel pull down and work.
 
B&D,

I do not dispute that fact, sizing pump correctly should be first choice, VFD second, then valve third. VFD's are relatively new to industry. I have dealt with pump sizing issues for 35 years. The OP made a bad choice by buying the pump he did, we are doing bandaids, the best choice is to swap put pumps.
 
Mass flow takes HP, which takes amps, that is why a centrifugal pump can burn up windings with no restriction.
 

Thanks so far. I'm learning here anyway. Ran it again after 23 hours. Ran it full flow for a couple minutes at what looks like about 8 psi. Choked it down to 60 psi for another 6.5 minutes. With that psi it is hard to get a bucket test but it was 25 to 30 seconds for roughly 10 gpm with a recharge rate of about 5 gallons per hour. Think some of math was wrong yesterday and maybe before.

Have a new idea to speed the process up. Instead of waiting on the back ordered 1.25 inch 125 psi rated PE pipe, what if I ran schedule 40 pvc 1.25 inch pipe? What I don't know is how flexible would it be for installing and pulling without breaking or being too heavy. I can get it in 10 or 20 foot lengths and can rig up a 12 foot A frame. Don't have any slips but can use ropes with multiple wraps. Just don't know how 150 feet of pipe would stick up and over without breaking or being too hard to manage. Thanks, Britt. Thought I took pics of my pump setup but can't find them on my phone.
 
(quoted from post at 19:05:14 07/28/20)
Thanks so far. I'm learning here anyway. Ran it again after 23 hours. Ran it full flow for a couple minutes at what looks like about 8 psi. Choked it down to 60 psi for another 6.5 minutes. With that psi it is hard to get a bucket test but it was 25 to 30 seconds for roughly 10 gpm with a recharge rate of about 5 gallons per hour. Think some of math was wrong yesterday and maybe before.

Have a new idea to speed the process up. Instead of waiting on the back ordered 1.25 inch 125 psi rated PE pipe, what if I ran schedule 40 pvc 1.25 inch pipe? What I don't know is how flexible would it be for installing and pulling without breaking or being too heavy. I can get it in 10 or 20 foot lengths and can rig up a 12 foot A frame. Don't have any slips but can use ropes with multiple wraps. Just don't know how 150 feet of pipe would stick up and over without breaking or being too hard to manage. Thanks, Britt. Thought I took pics of my pump setup but can't find them on my phone.

NO! NO! I have pulled plenty of pumps. Wait for the poly.
 

Did some research on the tnterweb last night. You are right Showcrop. There is use of schedule 80 threaded and schedule 120 with some use of glue joints, but the prevailing view is for PE pipe. I paid extra for 125 psi over 100 at the stores. However at 150-160 feet deep I have about 70 psi in head pressure plus 60 operating pressure puts me at 130 psi. Add back some built-in safety factor and i am at the limit. In retrospect I needed a smaller pump and then either 160 or 200 psi pipe.

Guess I will pull the pump today and pound on the bottom or wait longer for the well to fill so the pipe is more buoyant and easier to pull..

On another note, I was reading where a lot of well diggers don't use rope with their pumps out of concern it will deteriorate and break over time leaving a rat nest to where the pump gets stuck. Probably not as big an issue with 8 inch casing. Thanks.
 
(quoted from post at 06:12:25 07/29/20)

NO! NO! I have pulled plenty of pumps. Wait for the poly.

Are there any secrets to pulling pumps?

Pulled that pump yesterday from 120 feet full of water and too heavy to pull by hand. Had a 9 foot A frame mounted on my bale mover bale hooks. Pull about 8 feet a time and retying the rope each time. Used another rope with 5 wraps around the pipe and tied to the pickup as slips. It was slow going and and I kept expecting the rope to break. Learned I shouldn't have put the rope inside the plastic ties around the pipe and wire conduit.

I can hang a pulley from the A frame pulling on a rope wrapped around the pipe. Still have to reset my rope slips and pull 8 feet at a time. My wife just wanted me to drive off with the pickup but without some kind of frame attached to the well with a large sheave, that would have cut the rope and pipe at ground level. Any ideas here? Thanks for the help. Have a pic that I hope will load.
mvphoto59411.jpg


mvphoto59412.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 13:50:22 07/30/20)
(quoted from post at 06:12:25 07/29/20)

NO! NO! I have pulled plenty of pumps. Wait for the poly.

Are there any secrets to pulling pumps?

Pulled that pump yesterday from 120 feet full of water and too heavy to pull by hand. Had a 9 foot A frame mounted on my bale mover bale hooks. Pull about 8 feet a time and retying the rope each time. Used another rope with 5 wraps around the pipe and tied to the pickup as slips. It was slow going and and I kept expecting the rope to break. Learned I shouldn't have put the rope inside the plastic ties around the pipe and wire conduit.

I can hang a pulley from the A frame pulling on a rope wrapped around the pipe. Still have to reset my rope slips and pull 8 feet at a time. My wife just wanted me to drive off with the pickup but without some kind of frame attached to the well with a large sheave, that would have cut the rope and pipe at ground level. Any ideas here? Thanks for the help. Have a pic that I hope will load.
mvphoto59411.jpg


mvphoto59412.jpg


Well bc, it is not a secret but for the most part the guys that come to help enjoy themselves. There are a bunch of guys at my church that will come running when they hear that there is a well pump to pull. I just supervise. My sons FIL called to ask what to do when his pump quit. It is more complicated than your situation due to frost depth and the need to have the special tool. I told him to just get four fit guys and I would be there in an hour. You have to have help because it is strenuous work. but it doesn't really pull hard until the pump breaks water. I got there and he had guys from our church ready to work, and I brought the tools. After we got it out my son headed for the Depot for a replacement. He had a list of supplies needed due to the things that the "pro" installer had left out the last time. Another reason to attend church!!
 

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