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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update

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JDEM

03-22-2020 12:41:21




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This is an update RE my NAA Jubilee. As posted earlier, I thought it was a simple gear-drive tractor. Problem was slippage between the engine and rear wheels. I thought at first it just needed a simple clutch job. NOPE. I found out the hard way this thing has a kind of rare optional "live PTO" package added, likely by a Ford dealer. I find it odd that Ford would try to install a hydraulic clutch pack at the output of the transmission where there is little gear reduction. It takes a lot of clutch at that point if intended to last and not slip.

I posted several times here since even the Ford tech manual did not show all the internal parts or describe how this thing is supposed to work - other then simple general comments.

Now I know since I just got done taking it all apart to the last nuts and bolt.

It is a well built and kind of interesting design. Theory of operation is like this. THIS is the info that should of been in the Ford tech manual. When you start the engine and the PTO pump turns, there is low pressure fed to the clutch pack if in "disengaged" position. This low pressure over-rides a stack of springs and unlocks an all steel locking plate. So just to make things clear. When the engine is shut off, and the PTO pump stops turning, metal Belleville Washer type springs force a steel lockplate into place and this locks up the entire clutch pack. Ford did this so when the tractor is parked and left in gear, it would not roll away. When you start the engine and put the control lever in "engage" or "lock" position, high pressure oil forces a piston against the 8 clutch facings and 8 clutch steel plates and makes the pack lock up under hydraulic pressure. So, there are three different modes of operation. #1 is PTO pump not turning and all steel lock up. #2 is PTO pump turning and low pressure to over-ride the steel lock-up but not enough to lock up the clutch disks and plates. #3 is PTO pump is turning, and high pressure is sent to the clutch pack and the clutches engage.

So, now I know. I found nothing wrong with any parts except worn clutch facings. The insides of the tiny PTO pump look like new. There is, however, a major part missing. There is supposed to be an accumulator to soften the clutch engagement. I assume it blew once upon a time and someone split the tractor, removed it, and blocked off the oil feed to it.

I have the tractor split and bought a long splined driveshaft coupler that is what the NAA Jubilee had originally before any PTO kit was added.

What I did not know is this. Seems if I had just removed the PTO pump entirely, that tractor would of gone into a permanent lockup mode and worked fine. I.e., once that optional clutch pack goes into the all-steel lockup mode due to no oil being delivered, it acts just like it has a solid steel coupler (like I am putting in now).

Yes, a long winded post. Might be of value though to someone else who has this sort of trouble. I searched around a lot and was unable to get this detailed info anywhere.

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Nebraska Farmer

03-24-2020 13:54:52




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to JDEM, 03-22-2020 12:41:21  
I've owned my NAA since 1992. It has the live pto setup also. When engaged it's not designed to do heavy pulling to the rear wheels. I've played with the live pto over the years but haven't had a real need for it. And I put over 100 hrs a year on the tractor. It also has the Sherman over/under transmission installed with the engine burning LP gas.



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Nebraska Cowboy

03-23-2020 05:40:43




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to JDEM, 03-22-2020 12:41:21  
Thanks for the great info. I have a Jubilee with this option (well parts of it anyway) in my shop right now. Need to split the transmission off next and have been looking for info. The Dearborn Live Power Take-Off Installation and Operating instructions are pretty simple with not much detail. This helps!



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Nebraska Farmer

03-24-2020 13:59:08




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to Nebraska Cowboy, 03-23-2020 05:40:43  
My IT shop manual has a good description of the "Live" pto operation.



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JK-NY

03-23-2020 05:36:46




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to JDEM, 03-22-2020 12:41:21  
I donít know if replacement clutch disks are available anywhere for the unit you removed but I would bet that someone may want to buy the live pto setup maybe for parts or to try and repair. I believe that it is fairly rare and should have some value, no idea on how much. You will have a handy little tractor when you are through. Thank you again for the update and pictures.



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Shaler

03-22-2020 19:48:12




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to JDEM, 03-22-2020 12:41:21  
Someone will thank you a million times down the road, JDEM. Very generous of you to share. Wish you lived around the corner from me. I have pulled the PTO clutch pack out of my IH784 tractor, replaced all the discs, reassembled, and now the PTO wont activate and no one seems to know how to troubleshoot.



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JK-NY

03-22-2020 18:22:15




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to JDEM, 03-22-2020 12:41:21  
Thank you for posting this update . I was interested to hear what you found once you got it apart. Your description gives us a good understanding of how this fairly rare accessory is designed to work.



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Greg NE

03-22-2020 17:46:45




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to JDEM, 03-22-2020 12:41:21  
I agree with the others, great follow up info!! I don't have a tractor with that setup but have seen a few and always wondered how they worked. Thanks!! Greg NE



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Hobo,NC

03-22-2020 15:52:36




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to JDEM, 03-22-2020 12:41:21  
Nice job on the write up...

I figured it was like the clutch pack in a automatic transmission I also spec a man could find the seals and clutches as they were probably used in other ford transmissions. I have the clutch pack out of a Kubota that had a glide shift trans it looks like a clutch pack from a old ford cruise-o-matic ..



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John in Mich

03-22-2020 15:04:53




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to JDEM, 03-22-2020 12:41:21  
Fantastic description, details and pictures. I have an assembly like that in the barn and had thought I might install it. I would definetly have to closely examine the parts. But, more importantly, determine why I NEED it. I DON'T. Just another accessory a bit unique to most NAA tractors.
I will use your pictures for great reference. Thank you.



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Duner Wi

03-22-2020 14:50:13




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to JDEM, 03-22-2020 12:41:21  
Thank you for taking time to post results. Who would have ever thunk!



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RLP in Co.

03-22-2020 14:25:48




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to JDEM, 03-22-2020 12:41:21  
Nice pictures! How do you add the writing on your pictures?



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JMOR

03-22-2020 13:32:24




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to JDEM, 03-22-2020 12:41:21  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeThank you JDEM for posting all the description & nice photos. I have been curious ever since reading the manual's description of operation. It came up short/confusing to me, anyway.



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RCP

03-22-2020 13:08:10




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to JDEM, 03-22-2020 12:41:21  
Have you considered fixing the clutch pack? Those look very similar to clutch packs in an Oliver hydrapower or over/under unit. It would make the tractor unique and user friendly to have the live PTO.

Rich



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Billy NY

03-22-2020 13:07:30




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to JDEM, 03-22-2020 12:41:21  
John, did this tractor originally have or was added, a PTO that you could stop the tractor, but it still ran at full power ? I'm following this and I have the next series up, an early 640, 1954 model year tractor. Both the 640 and my 850 just have the standard design where you disengage the clutch to engage the PTO lever and it powers up once you engage the clutch. The kind where the overrun clutch is recommended because even though you'll disengage the clutch, it won't stop forward motion, the inertia of the drive train will propel you. Well, when using the rotary mower, I'd just drop it down so the stump pan would rub and that was my overrun clutch LOL ! It worked very well for me actually. Now the 660 and the 860, + 661, 861, you have the 2 stage clutch, that allows you to stop motion, but the pto remains powered, I'm just wondering what this NAA has and if it was one those not so common options. I get the repair, it will give you what you need, but NAA's/Jubilee's, were mostly like the 640/850 for example if I am correct. I have seen a Jubilee with an auxiliary transmission, and some other options, way back when, was a really nice tractor, but I forget what those other options were. Sounds like you stumbled onto something interesting from that junkyard.

I stand to be corrected anyways, but very nice post on this, thanks for taking the time !

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Dean

03-22-2020 14:01:58




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to Billy NY, 03-22-2020 13:07:30  
The so-called "Live PTO" option for the 8N and NAA was dealer installed.

Manually operated on 8N and hydraulically operated on the NAA.

Operation was conceptually similar to the second "hand" clutch used by AC on WD and WD45 models. Releasing the clutch disengaged traction without releasing the primary (foot) clutch. Accordingly, PTO operation was not affected.

Auxiliary transmissions (usually Shermans) were placed in front of the main transmission to add more operating ratios. Such transmissions affected PTO speed but did not provide so-called "live PTO." Theoretically, there is no reason why an NAA could not have both an auxiliary transmission and a "live PTO" option, but I have never seen one so equipped.

Dean

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Bob

03-22-2020 12:59:40




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 Re: Ford NAA Jubilee live PTO update in reply to JDEM, 03-22-2020 12:41:21  
Looks like quite an ingenious design!

Interesting that the second hose and the accumulator were missing.



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