Odd tractor issues? Evil Ford maybe?

JDEM

Well-known Member
Last Fall, I went to a friend's auto junkyard. I was searching for a good 4L60E transmission core for my 1994 Chevy K2500. To my surprise that transmission was only made two years and is hard to find, but that is another story. I came across a 1995 trans that is even more rare and was only made one year. All that surprised me. While I was searching in the old part of the junkyard, I came across a Ford Jubilee tractor that was made the same year as me (1952). I did not need another tractor nor did I want another Ford. But . . my junkyard-empire friend told me it ran when parked there 5 years previous and would sell it cheap. So I cleaned out the carb, put new gas in it, stuck a 12 volt battery in it - and it started right up. I then drove it around and it ran surprisingly well even though the tires were flat. So I reluctantly bought it for $800 with a crappy front loader and still have not found my Chevy truck transmission. This is the story I got with the tractor. The junkyard owner wanted a tractor to run a brush-cutter. He bought this one from his uncle thinking it was ready to use. The engine never ran right so he hired a kid who worked at the local New Holland dealer to work on it. The kid just made it worse so the tractor was given up on and left in the junkyard (until I came across it). It seems that problem was caused by the wrong coil. This tractor had a new electrical system including a rebuilt 6 volt generator, new voltage regulator, and new ignition parts including a new coil. Problem was - the coil was made for 12 volts only and the tractor was being used with a 6 volt system. When I stuck the 12 volt battery in it, it ran fine. Once I got it home and put the proper 6 volt battery in, it was near impossible to start. Coil has 3.3 ohm primary windings and is meant for 12 volt systems only with no added resistor. I decided to convert to a 12 volt system anyway so that coil worked out fine. I also added a Pertronix breakerless Ignitor kit. No other mods needed. Coil was perfect for the Pertronix and so are the solid copper spark plug wires. Now - here is the weird thing. I parked the tractor in my barn once I had it running good. I had no intentions of doing any more work to it. A while later, I went to move it. I started it up, let the clutch out in 1st gear and NOTHING. No other gears worked either. I kept pushing the clutch in and out and slowly the tractor started trying to move. Finally it started to work normally. Seemed odd but I figured it had clutch problems?? All adjustments were fine. I parked it again. Later this winter, I pulled it into my shop. I split it and took the clutch out. It looked fine. I can see nothing wrong with it. Regardless, I got a new clutch kit here from YT and put it in. Once apart - I found other small things wrong. So, I ended up fixing every flaw I came across including a bad back wheel that was splitting in two. THEN - I decided to paint it which I hate doing. Got this thing all back together and guess what? It still will not move after I park it. Even for just half an hour. I just have to keep playing with the clutch jamming it in and out and eventually the tractor starts to move. It acts like it has a torque converter full of cold oil. Kind of perplexing. I noted that when I engage the PTO, and try to move the tractor - when it fails to move when in gear - the PTO turns fine. So now what?? I have never come across an issue like this in a pure gear-drive tractor. I am thinking maybe sheared rivets or bolts on the ring gear in the differential? At this point - nothing comes to mind other then just pulling the differential apart and looking for something wrong. Note - when it fails to move there are NO odd noises. Nothing that sounds like metal binding or slipping, stripped splines or gears. Pure silence. When it first starts to move a little, also no noise. I used to have a Case 580CK with a torque-converter drive and that is exactly how it always acted when cold (below 10 degrees F). I would play with the clutch pedal and eventually it would warm up and move. That is how this Ford NAA/Jubilee is acting except it is all gear drive. I would think that if the ring gear rivets or bolts were broken, it would not at first NOT move, and then get better after awhile and be silent. One other thing. Does anyone know what the original Jubilee badge looked like? The badge on this is all metal and supposedly is original. All chrome though with no color. Was it originally painted and got worn? I hand painted it with some gold and red and looks fine for what I want. I AM wondering though if the badge is OEM.
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(quoted from post at 15:27:03 03/14/20) Last Fall, I went to a friend's auto junkyard. I was searching for a good 4L60E transmission core for my 1994 Chevy K2500. To my surprise that transmission was only made two years and is hard to find, but that is another story. I came across a 1995 trans that is even more rare and was only made one year. All that surprised me. While I was searching in the old part of the junkyard, I came across a Ford Jubilee tractor that was made the same year as me (1952). I did not need another tractor nor did I want another Ford. But . . my junkyard-empire friend told me it ran when parked there 5 years previous and would sell it cheap. So I cleaned out the carb, put new gas in it, stuck a 12 volt battery in it - and it started right up. I then drove it around and it ran surprisingly well even though the tires were flat. So I reluctantly bought it for $800 with a crappy front loader and still have not found my Chevy truck transmission. This is the story I got with the tractor. The junkyard owner wanted a tractor to run a brush-cutter. He bought this one from his uncle thinking it was ready to use. The engine never ran right so he hired a kid who worked at the local New Holland dealer to work on it. The kid just made it worse so the tractor was given up on and left in the junkyard (until I came across it). It seems that problem was caused by the wrong coil. This tractor had a new electrical system including a rebuilt 6 volt generator, new voltage regulator, and new ignition parts including a new coil. Problem was - the coil was made for 12 volts only and the tractor was being used with a 6 volt system. When I stuck the 12 volt battery in it, it ran fine. Once I got it home and put the proper 6 volt battery in, it was near impossible to start. Coil has 3.3 ohm primary windings and is meant for 12 volt systems only with no added resistor. I decided to convert to a 12 volt system anyway so that coil worked out fine. I also added a Pertronix breakerless Ignitor kit. No other mods needed. Coil was perfect for the Pertronix and so are the solid copper spark plug wires. Now - here is the weird thing. I parked the tractor in my barn once I had it running good. I had no intentions of doing any more work to it. A while later, I went to move it. I started it up, let the clutch out in 1st gear and NOTHING. No other gears worked either. I kept pushing the clutch in and out and slowly the tractor started trying to move. Finally it started to work normally. Seemed odd but I figured it had clutch problems?? All adjustments were fine. I parked it again. Later this winter, I pulled it into my shop. I split it and took the clutch out. It looked fine. I can see nothing wrong with it. Regardless, I got a new clutch kit here from YT and put it in. Once apart - I found other small things wrong. So, I ended up fixing every flaw I came across including a bad back wheel that was splitting in two. THEN - I decided to paint it which I hate doing. Got this thing all back together and guess what? It still will not move after I park it. Even for just half an hour. I just have to keep playing with the clutch jamming it in and out and eventually the tractor starts to move. It acts like it has a torque converter full of cold oil. Kind of perplexing. I noted that when I engage the PTO, and try to move the tractor - when it fails to move when in gear - the PTO turns fine. So now what?? I have never come across an issue like this in a pure gear-drive tractor. I am thinking maybe sheared rivets or bolts on the ring gear in the differential? At this point - nothing comes to mind other then just pulling the differential apart and looking for something wrong. Note - when it fails to move there are NO odd noises. Nothing that sounds like metal binding or slipping, stripped splines or gears. Pure silence. When it first starts to move a little, also no noise. I used to have a Case 580CK with a torque-converter drive and that is exactly how it always acted when cold (below 10 degrees F). I would play with the clutch pedal and eventually it would warm up and move. That is how this Ford NAA/Jubilee is acting except it is all gear drive. I would think that if the ring gear rivets or bolts were broken, it would not at first NOT move, and then get better after awhile and be silent. One other thing. Does anyone know what the original Jubilee badge looked like? The badge on this is all metal and supposedly is original. All chrome though with no color. Was it originally painted and got worn? I hand painted it with some gold and red and looks fine for what I want. I AM wondering though if the badge is OEM.
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Before digging into the differential, I would remove the round inspection port and look at the 'driveshaft'. They have been found sheared. Ignore the yellow circle.
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This is going to sound a bit crude but have you tried shifting gears (carefully) without using the clutch while it won?t move? Just thinking that should tell you if anything is turning ahead of there. Good luck.
 
You beat me to it!

I was going to suggest pulling the side cover off, look in and see if power was making it through the transmission.
 

cvphoto8341.jpg

make sure you have sufficient pedal free-play. If that isnt the problem, pull the top of the trans cover off and see whats going on in there, then look through the side covers in the intermediate casting for any clues. A bad rear end will be noisy, and its usually a go or no-go situation.
 
The fact that its quiet, plus the fact that it "gets better" suggests to me that your clutch is slipping, possibility contaminated with oil. Is there a cutter key sticking out if a hole in the belly, under the clutch area? Its supposed to be there, jiggling around as the tractor runs, to keep the drain hole open.
The grill was originally light grey, like the hood. But you're the owner... if you like it red, keep it that way.
 
Looks like others have a handle on the your tractor issue.

As a former GM transmission rebuilder, what is so special about your 4L60E that you can't find one? 94 would be a one piece case without a 3-2 downshift solenoid. Just about as common as dirt. One piece case was used through '97 in full size, with the 3-2 solenoid appearing in '96-ish. There is a 2 piece case trans that started in Blazers in 96, then went across the board in '98. That transmission changed very little from '93 to end of production in about 2013 or so.

You sure you're looking for the right transmission? Every K2500 4x4 of that vintage I have seen uses a 4L80E which again is just about as common as dirt. It was built from '91 to about 2013.
 
No, nowhere near as "common as dirt." Now what exactly the difference are over the years, I do not know. Your comment about how little has changed from 1993 to 2013 is a little off though. There is the one-piece case versus the two-piece case. There is the small-block V8 pattern versus the LS pattern. There is the non PWM (pulse width modulation transmissions) versus those that use it. As far as the Chevy K2500 goes with a small-block V8? 1993-1994 4l60E is the only trans that works in my truck. 1995 only works for 1995 trucks and nothing else. Now - can some other years be changed and made to work? That I am not privy too. I DO know that most cases newer then my 1994 are marked in front with PWM and those cannot be made to work. In my situation, my trans in my 1994 works fine but is missing pieces out of the case and there are only three bolts holding it to the engine. So I'd like to find a good core somewhere with no cracks or missing pieces and rebuild it.
 
Like I said, it is NOT the clutch. I already split the tractor to check and put a new one in anyway - even though the old one was fine. Plus if it WAS the clutch, the PTO would stop working too.
 
I have seen the badges like you have in the photo from YT but those are reproductions. I have no idea what a factory original looks like. Mine is all metal and the tractor came from the family of the person who bought this tractor new. They claim that badge is original but I have no proof of that.
 
I guess I will try that next. Like I said before, the PTO keeps working so I know the clutch is working. But I do not know what is between the trans and the PTO. I am trying to figure out if there is maybe a splined coupler that drives the rear differential only that is separate from the PTO drive? What really has me perplexed is that once I horse around with it, it starts to work. Seems if this is caused by a worn or broken metal part somewhere, it would just get worse, not better. I have been working on tractors for 50 years but do not recall ever coming across a problem like this. I have fixed several International Harvester and John Deere tractors with stripped splined couplers but not of them just worked "sometimes." When they stripped, things stopped working completely.
 
(quoted from post at 18:01:26 03/14/20) I guess I will try that next. Like I said before, the PTO keeps working so I know the clutch is working. But I do not know what is between the trans and the PTO. I am trying to figure out if there is maybe a splined coupler that drives the rear differential only that is separate from the PTO drive? What really has me perplexed is that once I horse around with it, it starts to work. Seems if this is caused by a worn or broken metal part somewhere, it would just get worse, not better. I have been working on tractors for 50 years but do not recall ever coming across a problem like this. I have fixed several International Harvester and John Deere tractors with stripped splined couplers but not of them just worked "sometimes." When they stripped, things stopped working completely.
he splined (on both ends) coupler/driveshaft in the picture I posted.
4 bolts & you can look at it.
 
Not the main subject of my post, but about my truck transmission. I checked with several transmission rebuilders and suppliers. Plus the interchanged databases. All state that only 1993 and 1994 4l60E transmissions for trucks interchange. Nothing else. 1995 is worse and only work for 1995. I have no idea if there is any work around with some to make others fit. My case is bad in my 1994. So I have been looking for a clean 4L60E case with no cracks or pieces missing. From info I have gotten so far, the only case that will work in my truck must come from either a 1993 or a 1994 without PWM and made for a 5.7 small-block and 4WD. Here is the info that I have found from several sources.


1993: These were used in TRUCKS only. Not available in F-Bodies, B-Bodies, or Vettes

1994: Interchangeable with '93 4L60E with no modifications. The '93-'94 is a NON PWM transmission. This means that the lock up apply strategy is an on /off arrangement. It has an 11 pin case connector. Does not have PWM cast into front pump. 1 piece TCC control valve in the valve body. Plate has holes in plate, marked in diagram below. 1st design 3-2 valve

1995: Stand alone year! Will not interchange with any other year. This is a PWM transmission. An extra solenoid was added to the valve body to control the pulsed lock up strategy of the conerter clutch. It has a 12 pin case connector, extra wire in the transmission to computer harness and different computer to control the new PWM circuit. Has PWM cast in front pump. Front pump internal passages different to match new TCC strategy. 2 piece TCC control valve in valve body. Has holes in plate, marked in diagram below. 1st design 3-2 valve. 12 pin case connector. '94 computer won't recognise new TCC strategy., and will burn lock-up clutch and 3-4 clutches up. '96 computer isn't compatible with '96 3-2 control solenoid.
 


Don't worry about it. There is no need for a machine that looks that good to work. Just sitting looking pretty is completely adequate.
 
I read your post in the Ford forum first, then came here to read the other replies. I don't remember anything about the PTO still working in the post in the Ford forum.
I can't see it being splines or ring gear bolts/rivets... when they go, that's it - no movement.
 
Guess I didn't read close enough. The PTO comment IS there.
I bet the other guy has it, with it being a wheel hub.
 
Any one piece case from 93-97 can be used in your application, as long as it has the 4x4 cover mount holes. PWM only affects the front pump, but the pumps will interchange. The PWM only means it is capable of running a EC3 torque converter used in '96 up models. You would need to use your valve body. I used a PWM pump in my '93 when the pump cracked. The basic transmission changed very little. In fact, the small block and LS bell housing are both the same. In addition to that bell, there is a 4 cylinder bell, and a bell for the Trailblazer/Colorado 4,5,&6 cylinder family. There are two input shafts, with or without snout. Yours would be with about, as all one piece transmissions are.
 
I was intending to keep it around just to run a PTO generator I have, if needed. I have three places I live off and on and all my other
tractors are at my other places. So it seems as far as PTO work goes, this thing is okay. I DO find the problem perplexing though.
 
If I can swap parts from the 1994 trans I have into another year case and be fine, that is good to know. Maybe the interchange issue refers to complete bolt-in swaps only and does not account for possible mods.
 
Thanks. I had to go over to "modern view" before I could see the photo you posted. In that photo, is that a large coupler I am looking at? I
am wondering how repairable these things are if something in there strips? I know we had a lot of industrial John Deere tractors do it and
usually they were hardly worth the cost of repairing since new shafts and a new coupler were required.

Back to your photo - if that shaft or splines are stripped, would the PTO keep working? I have a Ford tech manual here and I am going to
study it further.
 
(quoted from post at 19:54:08 03/14/20) I was intending to keep it around just to run a PTO generator I have, if needed. I have three places I live off and on and all my other
tractors are at my other places. So it seems as far as PTO work goes, this thing is okay. I DO find the problem perplexing though.
ell, it isn't going away talking about it, do some observations that have been suggested.
 
Every restored Jubilee I've ever seen uses that colour combo. So does the cover of the original dealer literature inroducing the Jubilee tractor
cvphoto8358.jpg
 
Yes, the interchange manuals salvage yards use only account for direct bolt in, not if you can change a few things and make it fit. They have only gotten worse about this as they got newer. One that sticks out is the 94 up Series II 3800. The non-supercharge base engine is the same, no matter if it's in a front drive Buick, or a rear drive Camaro. Only the outside stuff is different. But if you are looking for a Camaro engine, salvage tell you $1K, when a $400 front drive engine will work by swapping the oil pan and manifolds.
 
You have a rare live pto conversion I think it works off a hydraulic clutch pack and may be your issue. Someone that knows more about it will fill in the blanks...
 
If the clutch "throwout" bearing slider is hanging up on the guide tube, it could be as simple as lubricating it, or replacing it. Jim
 
Yes, that is how it works.. it has a
small pump piggybacked off the main
hydraulic pump. After enlarging the
pictures, I think I see a second lever
next to the PTO lever. An air leak on the
supply side or a weak pump that loses
prime would cause these symptoms, and
gradually get better as it regains its
prime.
 
<img src = "https://i.imgur.com/V7PBTKs.jpg">

Yours appears to have the little added hydraulic pump behind the main hydraulic pump drive with the tach cable connected to it that is not "factory" and exists only to provide oil to the wet disc traction disconnect clutch that's located inside, replacing the coupling the others are telling you to inspect. (The added pump is the "silver-looking" part in this photo.)

The steel line crossing over the top of the transmission to the LH side is another "giveaway" that your machine is equipped with this rather rare accessory.

The hydraulically-operated traction disconnect clutch makes for a sort of "live PTO" by disconnecting power to the differential drive pinion, stopping the motion of the tractor while allowing the PTO to continue to operate.

Obviously, something is wrong with yours, and the hydraulically-operated clutch operates on occasionally!

<img src = "https://i.imgur.com/PtFSnR9.jpg">

Factory coupler between transmission and differential drive pinion is shown in the top photo, accessory wet clutch and shorter pinion drive coupling are shown in lower photo.




View manual...

<img src = "https://i.imgur.com/XsZAYhs.jpg">
 
(quoted from post at 21:39:21 03/14/20) You have a rare live pto conversion I think it works off a hydraulic clutch pack and may be your issue. Someone that knows more about it will fill in the blanks...
OBO has his eyes open! Great observation, HOBO! :D
 
There were 4L60E's in 3/4 trucks but they were the light duty trucks with a 6 bolt pattern wheel. These 6-lug 3/4 ton trucks were much closer to a 1/2 truck in specs vs an 8 lug 3/4 ton There were many 1/2 ton 4L60E trucks out there which uses the same trans as you are looking for.
 
If this was my tractor I?d be getting those headlights back to the proper location.
 
Bob - thank you very much. You are dead-on. I had no idea Ford ever made such a thing. I have had several N series, an NAA, and this have a 641 and a 4000. I had no idea such a thing as this existed. That is why I posted here, hoping someone had heard of the problem I described before tearing into everything. I stated earlier it acted like a sluggish torque-converter in cold weather. That made little sense for an all gear-drive tractor. I have to ask, what on earth was Ford thinking putting that clutch in the main drive input?

I am no Ford expert. I spent much of my adult life working on Deere machines. That said, I have been around quite a few Fords. This "live-continuous" PTO seems to have been a very short-lived idea.

For all I know the tractor will be fine as is. I will have to work it some and find out. After it is parked and I start it cold, it takes 5-10 minutes before it will move. Once it does though, it seems to work fine. Kind of like my Case 580CK was in cold weather.

I did not have a manual earlier. I have a 600 series manual which I hoped would be close. It is for some things but not this odd-ball continuous/live PTO.

I had an Allis Chalmers ED-40 with a similar problem years back. It had two dry clutches. A foot clutch and a hand-clutch to provide the same sort of PTO operation as it seems Ford intended for this NAA-Jubilee.

Thanks again. This was a real brain-killer (at least for my brain). Call it "confirmation bias." I had NO idea such a thing ever existed so I did not look for it. In fact, that tiny little PTO pump? I did not know it was a pump. I thought it was just some overdone proof-meter gear-box for the cable-drive.

So I guess this tractor is kind of a rarity. I will try to save it as is. If not, and no parts are available - I assume I can just stick a long splined coupler in there and convert it to a "normal" NAA? From what I see, it looks that way.
 

"I had no idea Ford ever made such a thing."

To be more accurate, they didn't, it was made by aftermarket accessory maker "Sherman".

Were you able to read the "link" I posted to the literature for the kit?

What oil is in the rear end, I would suppose "UTF" would be a better choice for that little pump to deal with than 90 gear oil.
 
Thanks again. It is not often I learn something totally new when it comes to old tractors. I had no idea Ford ever sold such a thing. Yes,
I looked at that manual and printed it for the "live PTO" kit. I also saw a little about it in my I & T manual for the NAA. I never looked
at the small section that mentions the live PTO because I assumed it would be about the dual-clutch setup like was used later. I have no
idea if Ford had any special requirements for oil when dealers installed this kit. It is not mentioned in any literature I have read. Ford
called for Type A ATF in all the NAAs. I think this tractor had 20 weight hydraulic oil in it. All the issues I had now make sense. When
I first ran this tractor at the junkyard last year - it was 70 degrees F out and it worked fine. I first noticed the problem after starting
at 10-20 degrees F. Thinking this was an all-gear drive like my 641, I assumed there HAD to be something wrong. Perhaps not.

Ford warns that when all is fine - the tractor drive is supposed to slip for a good 10 seconds even in warm weather unless the engine is
revved way up. I am sure worse with colder temps and thicker oil.

I am going to stick some Deere Hygard in it or some newer ATF. Now that I know what is going on I can stop worrying. I'd rather keep it
all intact since it is a rare option. If it ever totally craps out, it looks pretty easy to totally eliminate the option "live PTO" and
convert back to a solid drive. All that seems to be needed is the long splined coupling to convert.
cvphoto8712.jpg
 

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