Farmers v. JD

Dean · Mar 5, 2020

Bloomberg article provides insight from both sides.

Dean
Ongoing

Duner Wi · Mar 5, 2020

I like this line.
?That was the beginning of my John Deere derangement syndrome.?

TDJD · Mar 5, 2020

I?m with John Deere on this one. If someone messed with the software, and the tractor ran over some people who do you think is going to get sued. There going to go after someone with deep pockets, and most likely that would be JD (even though it?s not there fault).

Billy Shafer · Mar 5, 2020

I don't agree. That could happen with a tractor with no computer.I do agree about them being sued. Some people will sue for ant reason. I think J D techs only having the software is a big mistake.

Cummins/Onan started doing that as I was getting out.Only level three techs had the full software.I was sent to a job site about 150 miles one way. Found out it was the new control system. That level two techs could not work on. So I made a 300 mile trip for nothing.

kencombs · Mar 5, 2020

There is a huge difference in hacking software at the instruction level and reading/resetting fault codes. Computer systems core code has always been safeguarded from unauthorized changes. Easy enough to design systems that allow access for maintenance and protect from changes.
An owner or independent shop should be able to replace failed parts and restore the machine to operation without requiring a dealer to intervene. And do that without spending huge amounts of money. sort of like the range of code readers/scanners etc available for your car.

Your personal computer allows you to change add or delete files. But only user files, not system files. Same principle.

Industry standards have been developed for cars, trucks, PCs, servers, communications and a host of other uses.

That set of standards is what makes tools like the internet available to us all.

I hate to say it, but maybe governments are needed to force a set of standards to be developed, similar to ODBII for cars/pickups.

Traditional Farmer · Mar 5, 2020

If the buyers of JD tractors know the deal when they buy can't see how they can complain now.The cure would be not to buy in the first place.

DRussell · Mar 5, 2020

I wonder how many of the big guys are going to leases instead of buying.

Billy Shafer · Mar 5, 2020

I saw that happen down here. The man was told the new rules.So he still has his old one.

Another question. What if the farmer is in the middle of planting. Tractor breaks down and the tech. Can't get to him for a week.???

vecair · Mar 5, 2020

So wouldn't that logic apply to just about anything on a tractor? You change a tire and it falls off and you crash into people? You replace a tie rod end and same story? So zero repairs if there is any chance of injury? Where does it end?

fixt · Mar 5, 2020

I've tweaked and flailed with engines and machinery all my life.
I'm a firm believer in the right to repair and I support farmers in this instance without question.

If I paid such an obscene amount of money for a tractor I should be able to do what I wish to it. Brick it and let it sit, cannibalize for parts, or simply drive it around the field. Its this stance by Deere that has driven me away from even looking at their product, though I am not a farmer. It is the principle of the thing.

My old Massey 65 has no PIDS or motherboard and is easily understood. It simply runs and runs well every time so far.
No wait on a mechanic from what amounts to a big box store that doesn't know or care what my problem is and most importantly, no wait when time is critical.

I think Deere is shooting themselves in the foot with this one.
Just because they can doesn't mean they should.

Traditional Farmer · Mar 5, 2020

Good question that's why I like the older tractors and equipment I can afford back ups for everything.If something breaks pull it to the side and go get another one to use Zero downtime.
Plus it will always cost less to repair anything if I can take my time finding parts and getting it worked on.Bonus is I have a good excuse to buy another tractor,think I'm up to about 4 deep in backups for about everything.(LOL)

NY 986 · Mar 5, 2020

So what is the rational going to be when CNH or AGCO does something similar? I don't agree with the notion that a farmer can't fix something but trends don't stay isolated for very long. I don't see this going away and feel it will be adopted by the rest of the industry not far into the future. It will not affect me as I can not afford new equipment anyways. I'll just keep extending my line of older pre-computerized equipment.

Janicholson · Mar 5, 2020

No software can cause steering or brake malfunction. (at least so far) The real issue is shade tree adjustment of the power output. If I were JD or others, I would make the drive line coupling hardware sensitive to, but not fail when the engine is tweaked. Thus voiding the warranty. Could the owner replace the indicator parts sure, but that would leave a track record, and also cost a bunch. Software should be open source. Jim

ss55 · Mar 5, 2020

While there is a little bit of truth in that farmers arguments, the rest of his argument is so over the top (crack pot) that I have to side with Deere.

Why doesn't he buy from another manufacturer? Most businesses would not be so patient and would refuse to do any more business with him. Would you sell hay to a customer that complains about everything and wants you to change how you do business to suit his whims?

MARK ROBKE · Mar 5, 2020

I agree with Ken(below), on this issue. I worked for a major truck leasing company for 40yrs. They trained us when computer controls came out. They told us that they were influential on getting common diagnostics on trucks, especially the diagnostic connecter port. We had access to all manufacturers' diagnostic software-DIAGNOSTICS ONLY. We had access to all of the fault code diagnostic fault trees. We could change some things, like idle shut down times, or road speed, up to a limit. Or shut down with low coolant or change to a derate or warning. But derates by fault codes for emissions could not be changed unless it was factory programed as an emergency vehicle. Horsepower could not be changed-it would void warranty. And makes you suspect in the future, if you are caught.
Farmers should be able to access the diagnostics, and the repair info. But, it is very complicated: to know how to repair really requires an understanding of how the system works. Just clearing a code does not fix anything-it just prolongs the inevitable repair. And emission controls are the hardest to diagnose, many are intermittent or can only be duplicated under certain conditions. That said-if clearing a code gets you back to the harvest or planting, it might be the best option at the time. Mark.

Bob · Mar 5, 2020

(quoted from post at 11:05:58 03/05/20) No software can cause steering or brake malfunction. (at least so far) The real issue is shade tree adjustment of the power output. If I were JD or others, I would make the drive line coupling hardware sensitive to, but not fail when the engine is tweaked. Thus voiding the warranty. Could the owner replace the indicator parts sure, but that would leave a track record, and also cost a bunch. Software should be open source. Jim

" No software can cause steering or brake malfunction."

I don't often disagree with you Jim, but in this case I'll simply bring up the fact that many newer tractors or equipped with autosteer, which is controlled by and engaged by SOFTWARE!

Dean · Mar 5, 2020

Those looking for someone to blame here should blame our legal system, especially our tort system. Though I could explain why our tort system is as it is, doing so would cause this thread to be poofed.

Though both intellectual property and tort issues are at play, the greatest threat is from tort attorneys.

Both design engineer and IP attorney (retired), I understand JDs position and would advise much the same.

Sad as it is, government will likely get involved eventually. Once this has happened, the ground rules change.

Dean

Dean

sourgum · Mar 5, 2020

In another time one could adjust the hp on your tractor and no problem. Now if you want to do that seems like you would void the warranty and subject the tractor manufacturer to violation of emissions laws and generate fines for them. Not that emission rules are necessary but just saying they are there. We might be surprised at the number of leases of tractors versus outright sales for issues in that article.

BarnyardEngineering · Mar 5, 2020

(quoted from post at 11:18:08 03/05/20) In another time one could adjust the hp on your tractor and no problem. Now if you want to do that seems like you would void the warranty and subject the tractor manufacturer to violation of emissions laws and generate fines for them. Not that emission rules are necessary but just saying they are there. We might be surprised at the number of leases of tractors versus outright sales for issues in that article.

No problem?

There's a reason injection pumps had seals on them from the factory. If the seal was broken, it VOIDED THE WARRANTY. On everything. Engine. Transmission. Differential. Final drives. Weight bracket to drawbar.

Most BTOs lease their tractors anyway.

Brendon-KS · Mar 5, 2020

Deere's ActiveCommand system is 100% steer-by-wire so it by definition is controlled by software.

CenTex Farmall · Mar 5, 2020

There's has to be an improved middle ground where the farmer can get a machine going to finish harvest, especially when there's a weather induced deadline.

Relatives have had significant crop loss due to this very issue.

There will be a few "hot rodders" seeking that last horse but I bet most would just want to be able to get out of a jam. Generally newer stuff seems to have plenty of power.

I don't have any newer farm machines but I do know that the road vehicles I have that were made this century all run great and have more than enough power in totally stock form.

ss55 · Mar 5, 2020

Legislation is by nature a compromise, requiring some "controlled collusion" between the affected parties, that often results in some very unintended consequences.

How could a "right to repair" law affect the used farm equipment market? It is probably not reasonable to legislate that manufacturers must support all their equipment for 50 plus years like they pretty much always do now. Something like 20 years for tractors and 10 years for combines might be the maximum that can be legislated. Liability cost and product support costs could easily force manufacturers to only lease new and used self propelled equipment: tractors, combines, self propelled harvesters, etc.), and force them to scrap all machines after a certain age or hours, say end all combine leases and scrap them after they reach 15 years or 3000 hours. That could be an unexpected boon to manufacturers, but where will that leave small farmer who depends on used equipment?

SVcummins · Mar 5, 2020

Just one more reason not to own anything newer than than a early 2000 model year

M-MAN · Mar 5, 2020

There's a big difference between the $$ to buy a bale of hay and up to $800,000 for a piece of equipment. They have plenty of reason to listen.

There is no reason other than $$$(greed) for Deere not to have a common port to read any codes and reset them just like automobiles. The bigger machines with a computer screen should have it built in just like manufacturing plant machines.

In my opinion either the government will make Deere add this capability or Kubota will keep upping their game and knock Deere off their perch. Deere has a monopoly on the big stuff now but it won't stay that way once they have reliable competition.

Bob · Mar 5, 2020

(quoted from post at 17:25:51 03/05/20) There's a big difference between the $$ to buy a bale of hay and up to $800,000 for a piece of equipment. They have plenty of reason to listen.

There is no reason other than $$$(greed) for Deere not to have a common port to read any codes and reset them just like automobiles. The bigger machines with a computer screen should have it built in just like manufacturing plant machines.

In my opinion either the government will make Deere add this capability or Kubota will keep upping their game and knock Deere off their perch. Deere has a monopoly on the big stuff now but it won't stay that way once they have reliable competition.

"The bigger machines with a computer screen should have it built in just like manufacturing plant machines."

You are too late with your idea, DEERE has already done that, at least to some degree.

I'm gonna GUESS you've never been "hands-on" with what you are writing about?

There's lots of diagnostics that can be done without plugging anything in, and the procedures to enter the various diagnostic modes are detailed in the service manuals.

I think the big complaint the protesters have is that they want access to the "source code" so it can be reverse engineered and altered to delete emissions and other "tweaks".

David Snipes · Mar 5, 2020

My opinion is that there aren't enough tractors to influence pollution and climate and all that junk should never have been implemented.

john in la · Mar 5, 2020

While I do not have a dog in this hunt and my newest tractor is 60 years old.....

I can see the point that a farmer needs his tractor fixed right now during planting or harvest.

But I also know just like the crowd that puts chips in their diesel pickup farmers will be trying to experiment with these tractors.

I wonder if a farmer would be willing to give up his GPS guidance automatic steering tractor (with all the other bells and whistles)that allows him to grow more bushels per acre in exchange for being able to buy a new tractor he is allowed to work on.

I bet not.

Dean · Mar 5, 2020

Agreed, David.

Stay tuned. There's a new sheriff in town.

Dean

M-MAN · Mar 6, 2020

Depends on what you consider hand's on in
this scenario. When I left the Deere
dealership 16 years ago one of the owners
was the one who used the laptop to
diagnose the newer tractors. We didn't
have any of the big boys like we are
discussing so no I have no experience
with them.

I then went back into textiles working on
Dornier and Itema weaving machines with
Staubli electronic jacquards. Several
hundred thousand for each dual machine
setup with two computer systems working
together on each. Built in diagnostics on
both. Complete repair manual loaded in
the computer. Factory software loaded on
a USB along with the ability to copy/
delete/ reload software on every machine.
Critical code could only be changed using
a factory key which only only factory
technicians had access to.

So yes I think I know a little bit about
what I stated. It's right to REPAIR. In
no way am I referring to system source
code which is Deere's intellectual
property.

mdross · Mar 6, 2020

It is easy to understand why any farmer or farm equipment buyer would want to work on their own equipment for a couple reasons. The major one is convenience the other obviously money it only makes sense. I understand JD's side with such complicated systems these days and standing behind their products. Sad that they are not willing to work with farmers on this issue.

Farmers v. JD

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