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Running a 110 line off of a 220 line...

R

Red1

Member
I'm reading different opinions..some say its safe other say hire an electrician, and others say no...Need an 110v outlet in a closet adjacent to the water heater..220v...Would like to run it off that line...
 

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I wouldn't hesitate if I used one of these. I'm sure others will disagree.
 
As an electrician, I wouldn't do it.
Your water heater circuit probably only
has two hot legs and a ground wire. You
would have to use that ground wire as a
current carrying conductor for the neutral
to get 120. Also, the water heater
circuit is probably a 30 amp circuit, but
your 120 volt receptacle is probably rated
for 15 or 20 amps. Thirdly, that 30 amp
circuit is probably at capacity for the
water heater. It's definitely not up to
code, and just not a good idea.
 
(quoted from post at 14:45:05 01/23/20) I'm reading different opinions..some say its safe other say hire an electrician, and others say no...Need an 110v outlet in a closet adjacent to the water heater..220v...Would like to run it off that line...
Click to expand...

No, no and no .
No neutral . Breaker is too large . Heater circuit does not have the capacity to operate an extra load .
 
220 is just 2 hots and depending on how old your set up is it could be a ground or a ground and neutral. But is doing what you want up to code?? I cannot say it is but yes t can be done but might not be real safe since it would not have its own breaker
 
Not safe to use the ground as neutral.

I have a couple of pieces of equipment that gets the 110 ac control voltage via a 2:1 transformer off the 220 supply to get around that issue. Lots of boilers / furnaces do the same thing. Tiny transformer only rated for a few amps though.
 
The question boils down to the availability of a neutral wire. Some, maybe many, maybe all, electric water heaters are wired hot-hot-ground with standard Romex. No neutral to wire a 110 circuit with.

Some will say just used the ground as the neutral because they're connected together back at the electrical panel anyway, then there will be this whole big argument about "bonded" and electrical codes not allowing the ground wire to be current-carrying, etc..

I personally don't know what bad could happen and can't guarantee if anything bad will happen using the ground as neutral, so it's up to you.
 

Seems like I switched out a gas for an electric dryer in the basement in another house. My brother ran a 220 line to the dryer, and I ran a 110 off that junction box to run the dryer control panel.

the 220 circuit was a 30 amp circuit, so not sure how many amps I had running to the 110 outlet......that would be the part you might want to check with an electrician on.
 
Oh yeah, and the breaker for the water heater will be rated for way more than the outlet or anything on it. The breaker won't protect the wiring from the water heater to the outlet.
 
(quoted from post at 15:11:25 01/23/20) Oh yeah, and the breaker for the water heater will be rated for way more than the outlet or anything on it. The breaker won't protect the wiring from the water heater to the outlet.
Click to expand...
...and in addition to the above "wrongs", it is against code to have an electrical outlet in a clothes closet.
 
(quoted from post at 12:04:12 01/23/20) Man is right. I would NOT do it unless there is a dedicated neutral. Not just the ground
Click to expand...
hould have said Morgan. I have done a substantial amount of wiring. Personally, I always run Hot/Hot/Neutral/Ground, for a 220 volt circuit. I suppose not everyone does.
 
If you use the ground for a neutral, and
that ground wire breaks while you have
something plugged in, every grounded
appliance in your house could be energized
with current trying to get back to the
bonded neutral at the panel. That's bad.
 
(quoted from post at 15:24:25 01/23/20)
(quoted from post at 12:04:12 01/23/20) Man is right. I would NOT do it unless there is a dedicated neutral. Not just the ground
Click to expand...
hould have said Morgan. I have done a substantial amount of wiring. Personally, I always run Hot/Hot/Neutral/Ground, for a 220 volt circuit. I suppose not everyone does.
Click to expand...
reg, what did you do with neutral at the water heater?
 
No, not legal, not safe.

Look around, there may be another circuit close by you can bring power from.

It's ok to cut into an existing wire IF there is room to make the connection inside a junction box, as in the attic. Or bring power up inside the wall from a near by receptacle. Being inside a closet you might consider using surface mount Wiremold components instead of dropping inside the wall.

Just keep all connections inside a junction box, and don't close any boxes or connections up inside a wall.
 
Whether a water heater, welder, air conditioner, dryer, stove, whatever. I always installed an outlet and a pigtail on the appliance. Made things so much simpler down the road if there was a problem. Yes it does cost more, but well worth it. I have seen dryers and welders hard wired in. Most guys will even hard wire in a dish washer, and garbage disposal. Never understood why anyone would do that.
 
I went from an electric stove to natural gas. I still needed 110 to power the control panel, so I robbed it from the 220 behind
the stove. Nothing else is on that circuit. So far, so good.
 
A previous neighbor did that. the neutral failed, and the conduit to the water heater started getting hot. Do not do that. It cost the
neighbor 750 to make it right. Use an independent circuit. (maybe branch off of an existing under used outlet. Put the outlet next to
the closet on the out side of the door, not in the closet. Ask a local electrician. Jim
 
Problem is with that while it does work you have a 50 or so amp breaker on a set up that should be more like 15amp breaker so if something where t go bad in the control panel it could end up going up in smoke and your home with it
 

What are you trying to operate and where ?
A 14/3 or 12/3 and a 15 two pole or 20 two pole will do into a 15 amp duplex or T-Slot Duplex receptacle . Route the cable through the attic or basement .
 
I can understand why he may have a problem running a new circuit. Several years ago my wife wanted the basement remodeled (again) and she wanted the entire ceiling sheet rocked. I did it, but I also told her what she has in the rest of the house is what she will have forever. No changing it now. Only a small area in the utility room is not covered. I worry about the day we have a plumbing problem. I know it's coming.
 
Good afternoon Red, good question, here's my response, hope it helps and keeps you safe from harm.

WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWw there's always a ton of opinions when an electrical or legal question is asked, some maybe right ?? some maybe wrong ?? BUT THIS ONE IS ALL OVER THE PLACE ..?.


DISCLAIMER its been years since I retired as an Electrical Power Distribution Design Engineer and I'm rusty on the codes and some things have changed, but to the best of my recollection NO WARRANTY here's my electrical power engineer's opinion and recollection.


1) There's a good chance the 220 volt water heater HAS NO NEUTRAL ran to it but ONLY two Hots plus an Equipment GroundING Conductor (typically bare/green). Ifffffffffffffffffff so (as I suspect) see below ??.

2) For a 120 Volt receptacle there must be a true Neutral AND DO NOTTTTTTTTTTT TRY TO USE THE water heaters (typically bare/green) Equipment GroundING Conductor as a substitute Neutral !!!!!!!!! That's a serious code violation plus can create a safety hazard !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Neutral is NOTTTTTTTTT the same nor should be substituted or vice versa as an Equipment GroundING Conductor !!!!!!!!!!!

BOTTOM LINE A)

A 120 volt 2 pole 3 wire grounding NEMA 5-15R or NEMA 5-20R receptacle MUST have a Hot, a true Neutral, an Equipment GroundING Conductor. Even an old style 2 pole 2 wire 120 volt receptacle (without a third wire ground) requires a Hot and a NEUTRAL......... DO NOTTTTTTTTT USE AN EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR FOR A NEUTRAL

BOTTOM LINE B)

If (as I suspect) your 220 volt water heater is 220 ONLY (IE NO NEUTRAL) and ONLY has two hots L1 & L2 plus a bare/green Equipment GroundING Conductor DO NOTTTTTTTTTTT tap off one of its Hots (L1 or L2) and its bare/green Equipment GroundING Conductor to feed a 120 Volt receptacle

In addition there are other potential code violation and safety issues having to do with "Tap Rules", Proper overcurrent protection issues,,,,,,,And approved receptacle location issues that can prevent you from doing what you propose.

My best professional (albeit retired and rusty) electrical engineers advice is DO NOTTTTTTTTTTT DO THIS especially if there's NO Neutral ran to your water heater...?

Where fire and life safety is at risk please DO NOT rely on lay opinions but instead consult trained professional electricians and engineers and local utility and any authority LEST YOU BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN OR OR GET SOMEONE ELECTROCUTED

You posted "some say its safe" Ask yourself Is it worth risking your life or your home on some saying its safe ?????

However I believe a mans home is his castle and he should be free to do as he pleases and I support anyones right to do as they like in their home.... YOUR HOUSE YOUR LIFE YOUR CHOICE not mine or anyone here

God Bless take care and best wishes


John T BSEE,JD Long retired electrical power distribution design engineer so DO NOT take my word for any of this consult the NEC and trained current practicing professionals......
 
Most will say no, not to code.
A close dryer runs 0n 220, yet the timer
and blower motor run on 110.

The 3 wire dryers used same wire as
neutral and ground.

Only new construction require 4 wire
dryer.

Would I use 3 wire 220v to branch off a
120v? No

I can't explain why dryers, even today,
can do what you want to do.

George
 
I would run a seperate line of 120. I have seen too many patch jobs over the years. I agree with John-T. YOUR
HOUSE YOUR LIFE. Is it worth the risk.

And before anyone jumps me. I have heard I know what I am doing. Too many times. Before the fire or they haul the
body off.
 

At one time I had 240 out to a shed, and from there I needed 120 for the well pump. Worked just fine for about 20 years and then the shed fell down, so now it is 120 from the meter pole all the way to the well pump.

Begging forgiveness is easier than asking permission, and you'll get a lot more done.
 
...and in addition to the above "wrongs", it is against code to have an electrical outlet in a clothes closet.
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Does this include walk-in closets? I have a recept in an exposed wall inside our closet, and the wiring passed inspections. I suppose that becomes a room when you can enter completely under normal circumstances?
 
NEC defines a clothes closet as a nonhabitable room or space intended primarily for storage of garments and apparel. I'm studying to be a
commercial electrician so residential is not my strong suit but I don't see anything in the code book stating a receptacle in a closet is a
violation. Closest thing I see is 240.24(D) which says that overcurrent devices (breaker, fuses) shall not be located in the vicinity of
easily ignitable material, such as in a clothes closet. Anyone feel free to point it out if I missed something, always glad to learn.
 
I am not an electrician by any means. I don't think code would allow that, however a lot of things get done not to code. That being said I do know that my neighbor did just that type of thing at his place.

He had 240 run to his shop, from there he ran a line to a pole with a 240 receptacle. From there he ran a line using only one hot leg out to a water trough and put in a floating heater. He developed a short that was not enough to trip the breaker but it sure made his power meter sing. He had about a $600 power bill when normal was around $230. He didn't burn the place down but the power company wouldn't adjust the bill either because the power went through the meter. Your choice.

Steven
 
I seem to remember asking this some time ago, but wasn't sure of the answer...Now I remember some of the arguements against doing this...plus additional ones mentioned here...Thanks for the input..I do have another place I can tap into...in the suspended ceiling in the mudroom, next to the water heater..I'll go from there through the wall into the closet...This is for a dyson v11 that needs to be on a charger all the time..Its in the way sitting next to the entry door.....
 
In thirty years on here I don't think I've ever seen so much mis information and failure to understand basic electrical power distribution principles wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. I've tried my best to educate and help people keep from burning their houses down or being electrocuted but I give up lol. Where fire and life safety is concerned at least consider just perhaps listening to trained competent current practicing professional electricians and electrical engineers and the NEC versus lay opinions.

Neutral is NOTTTTTTTTTTT the same as an Equipment GroundING Conductor. Read some books and learn how and why that's true.

Educating yourself might save your life...??.. A straight 220 volt water heater circuit with two hots L1 & L2 plus an Equipment GroundING Conductor and NO Neutral is NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT the same as a 4 wire (Two Hots, Neutral, Ground) 110/220 volt dryer circuit.

A 120 Volt 2 pole 3 wire Grounding NEMA 5-15R or NEMA 5-20R Receptacle REQUIRES A HOT, NEUTAL, AND A GROUND. Therefore you CAN NOT use a straight 220 volt water heater circuit with two hots and a Ground NOOOOOOOOOO Neutral to feed a receptacle !!!! But don't take my word for it, consult the NEC and current practicing professional electricians and engineers

NEVER use the Equipment GroundiNG Conductor as a Neutral THEY ARE NOTTTTTTTTT THE SAME

God Bless yall, take care and be safe is all I can say. I tried my best that's all I can do

John T Retired Electrical Power Distribution Design Engineer

Do however you like, its your home and your life at risk
 
George, you state "Would I use 3 wire 220v to branch off a 120v? No

SMART AND WISE CHOICE it may save your life, now if only others could be made to understand that

John T
 
It?s not illegal for home owners to do their own work or they
wouldn?t sell supplies at the hardware store. Your best bet to
jump off for power without a new breaker on your panel is
either an existing 110v receptical or a light switch. You need a
neutral to go back to the panel to balance any load safely and
a live all the time hot for your vacuum to charge. On top of
that you need a ground connected both to the outlet box and
the ground screw on the receptacle. If you tap into a light
switch , the white neutrals are likely wire nutted together so
you?ll need to join in with that. If there?s no neutral at the
switch at all (could be both a white and black on the switch)
then the power is fed to the light then sent down to the switch
then back up to the light. If that?s the case then you can grab
all 3 needed lines at the light. If not then the hot feeding the
switch will need to be unhooked, then make a 6? long jumper
to refeed the switch and join that with feed you took off your
switch and also with your hot going out to your new receptical.
Use a set of pliers to tightly and neatly twist your wires
together before putting the wire nuts on and make sure
there?s no bare wire visible except your ground. All
connections need to be tight,make nice neat hooks under
your receptical screws not just jabbed underneath. If all of this
doesn?t make perfect sense and is easy then ask a
professional to do it for you. Loose connections cause arking
which can cause a fire when your least expecting. Improper
grounding can cause a potentially fatal shock to an innocent
person. It might only be 110-120V but there can be enough
current to kill.
 
I?m studying construction electrical in Canada,our code is very similar to yours. I?ve never seen or heard of a code that doesn?t allow receptacles in closets but they usually aren?t installed. Because it?s not normal usable space it?s not required to install them. If it?s a utility closet it makes sense for the reason stated by the poster and it?s perfectly ok to have one.
 
Haven't read the other posts, but "normally" I would likely say it's OK. However, you're talking about connecting to a dedicated 220v connection, so in that instance, I say definitely not.

"Can" it be done? Yes. But the only way I'd ever branch off is if the 220 line is not dedicated or in a lot of use (like an air compressor that is constantly used, constantly run).
 
Could not agree more, there's a reason why you need 12,000 hours in the field to obtain your license in Missouri. It's not a simple as most people think. Yes, jimmy bob can short cut some things and have it work. But is it safe? I'm not willing to bet my family's life on it. Like Philip said, code was written for a reason. As our teachers like to point out, it was written in blood. Two of my instructors are on the national code making panel and have their names in the NEC book. They don't do it for fun, they value safety and take pride in our industry.
 
(quoted from post at 20:22:03 01/23/20)
(quoted from post at 15:11:25 01/23/20) Oh yeah, and the breaker for the water heater will be rated for way more than the outlet or anything on it. The breaker won't protect the wiring from the water heater to the outlet.
Click to expand...
...and in addition to the above "wrongs", it is against code to have an electrical outlet in a clothes closet.
Click to expand...

Where did you come up with that?
 
David,
You can still buy 3 wire ranges and dryers for older homes. I think it's insane but its still being done. Ground and neutral is the same wire. Tell me why it's been done for 50 years.
George
 
1. A water heater is typically a dedicated, one item on the set of breakers thing and matched up to the amp draw. I don?t believe the rules want you to also hook on
something else, and not a 120v outlet. So, no.

2. Most water heaters run 2 hot wires and a ground wire. For 120v you need one hot wire, one neutral wire, and 1 ground wire. So, you do not have the right wires
available anyhow. So, for sure, no. (The ground wire and the neutral wire are -not- the same thing and not interchangeable.)

3. Your water heater is 220v with a 220v breaker. You couldn?t rely on that to protect your 120v outlet.

4. There are ways to wire up something that sorta works with what you have, but they are not proper and not correct and somewhat dangerous. These are the ?here
hold my beer? type of things, not proper wiring.

Paul
 
(quoted from post at 13:45:05 01/23/20) I'm reading different opinions..some say its safe other say hire an electrician, and others say no...Need an 110v outlet in a closet adjacent to the water heater..220v...Would like to run it off that line...
Click to expand...

l'm not going to give a definitive answer until we know for sure if there is neutral present at the water heater. Well, I'll definitely say no if there isn't, But there is a legal and safe way to do it if ther is a neutral. But it entails much more that just a recpt.
 
(quoted from post at 23:18:42 01/23/20)
(quoted from post at 20:22:03 01/23/20)
(quoted from post at 15:11:25 01/23/20) Oh yeah, and the breaker for the water heater will be rated for way more than the outlet or anything on it. The breaker won't protect the wiring from the water heater to the outlet.
Click to expand...
...and in addition to the above "wrongs", it is against code to have an electrical outlet in a clothes closet.
Click to expand...

Where did you come up with that?
Click to expand...
s any qualified/licensed electrician will inform you, the NEC is not the end-all, as municipalities can & do make additions, as is the case where I live.
 
If someone would walk through the "bad thing" that could happen if you used the ground as a neutral, it might help people understand.

However, I've slogged through this same old argument dozens of times, and not once, ever, has anyone ever detailed the "bad thing" that could happen. They just wave their hands and say "Don't do it, it's bad!"

This is just like telling a kid "Don't touch, it's hot" in regards to a boiling pot on the stove, when the kid has no frame of reference for what getting burned is like, or what hot is. They're just supposed to take the parents' word for it. So they reach out and "SSSSSSSSS!" "WAAAAAAAAAAH!"

Give us plebs a frame of reference.
 
Technically it's wrong but if all you are running is a light I wouldn't worry about it. It's just the breaker won't give you protection.
 
THANKS SO MUCH for an excellent question. While its impossible to explain in a paragraph what may take electricians or electrical engineers a lot of education and experience to understand, I will try my best as an electrical power distribution design engineer to provide a very basic non perfect non exact answer so lay persons might possibly better understand it, HERE GOES MY BEST EFFORT:

1) The Neutral conductor is an insulated hot current carrying conductor. Its purposely insulated so you don't accidentally come in contact with in in which case your body/heart could become a parallel current carrier killing you dead. ITS INSULATED ITS A LIVE HOT CURRENT CARRIER

2) The Equipment GroundING Conductor, if alls well, NEVER CARRIES HOT LIVE NORMAL RETURN CURRENT but ONLY fault current so in the event a hot shorts to case the breaker trips de energizing the circuit and saves your life. Its often BARE and is often actually bonded to an outer metal conductive shell or case of an electrical appliance THAT YOU TOUCH !!!!!!!!!!!!

3) NOW IMAGINE would you want a live hot current carrier (NEUTRAL) bonded to the outer metal case of an appliance you touch ????????????????? Maybe bare footed maybe on a wet floor or near a sink.

4) That's one among others of reasons you NEVER substitute Neutral for Ground or vice versa. Neutral is a hot live (insulated) current carrier while Ground des NOT carry normal return current (ONLY fault current) and is bonded to an appliances outer case/frame

5) Even a lay person not trained or experienced as an electrician or electrical engineer should HOPEFULLY understand why the Neutral is insulated (so you cant touch it) and ground is not (its bonded to the tools outer case often a bare copper conductor) THEY ARE NOT THE SAME AND MIXING MATCHING THEM OR SUBSTITUTING ONE FOR ANOTHER MAY GET YOU KILLED

DISCLAIMER its not a shame if a person not trained and experienced as an electrician or electrical engineer might not understand this THE ABOVE CAN IN NO WAY EDUCATE A LAY PERSON so dont feel and if you don't.

This is one of those cases where the same as you might trust your doctor or lawyer AN EXPERT in life or death situations. Even if you don't understand it the experts at the NEC and professional electricians and engineers DO UNDERSTAND IT so maybe just maybe when fire and life safety is concerned TRUST THE NEC AND ELECTRICIANS AND ELECTRICAL ENGINEERS...?..Hey they just might understand this better then you or Billy Bob or Bubba ???????????

Sooooooooo thanks Barnyard man for an excellent question GO TO THE HEAD OF THE CLASS LOL Again this can not explain and educate a complex issue to a lay person but dont take my word for it consult professionals trained educated experienced persons in life or death situation same as you trust your doctor if your not a doctor

Best I can do and NOT exact or in depth or perfect but its a start TO A GREAT QUESTION

Thanks so much barnyard, a true gentleman

John T BSEE,JD Retired Electrical Power Distribution Design Engineer who does understand the difference in Neutral and Ground and why mixing and matching or substituting can be a hazard or get you killed. It was years of study and NEC training seminars and experience that taught me this and Im not surprised that any lay person would not understand this BUT THAT DONT MAKE ITS NOT SO does it ???????????

DO NOT touch a hot live current carrying non insulated current carrier !!!!!!! If Neutral is bonded to a tools case (instead of a safety grounding bare conductor) YOU CAN BE KILLED

Keep safe yall and God Bless
 

Ground and neutral are not the same . Anyone with that idea needs to get it out of their head.
The ground is not a load current carrying conductor and is often bare . The ground s only role is to hold anything connected to it to earth potential.
The neutral is an insulated load current carrying conductor just like a live line . It is however the neutral is held to nearly ground/earth potential via the bond to the ground .
Anyone ever wonder why two live lines , a neutral and a ground are supplying a stove or clothes dryer . If the ground and the neutral were the same, why bother ?
Just because a stove or dryer were operated 50+ years ago on three wires instead of four . Doesn t make it right . Just because it "works" doesn t make it right .
 
See John T below " if all is well ,never carries hot live normal return current" In other words the ground is not a current carrying conductor in any situation. Simply for fault current only.
 
I was going to ask the original poster what article said that. I sure did a lot of electrical work in closets of rich peoples homes. Thought I knew the code too.
 
(quoted from post at 11:55:34 01/24/20) I was going to ask the original poster what article said that. I sure did a lot of electrical work in closets of rich peoples homes. Thought I knew the code too.
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s I said, it depends on the municipality in which the home is located. They are free to tailor their requirements/regulations as they see fit & they certainly do. Besides the clothes closet, another example: "here, it is not acceptable to pipe natural gas or propane into a garage where motor vehicles may be parked". But it is OK to pipe it into the attic above the garage for central heat or water heater in attic. At first glance, one might say, WHAT! But it is because gasoline vapors are heavier than air & settle/travel along the floor & they are concerned about such vapors reaching a garage heater. Different municipalities differ on this, too. Some allow gas fired water heater in such garage , IF it is a specified distance above the garage floor.
 
Wow, This Question AGAIN. Here's a link to just one time before Electrical 240


My Opinion.....

[u:872ab6fba2][b:872ab6fba2]Listen to John T and Fordy20[/b:872ab6fba2][/u:872ab6fba2]


(quoted from post at 18:00:28 01/23/20) Good afternoon Red, good question, here's my response, hope it helps and keeps you safe from harm.

WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWw there's always a ton of opinions when an electrical or legal question is asked, some maybe right ?? some maybe wrong ?? BUT THIS ONE IS ALL OVER THE PLACE ..?.


DISCLAIMER its been years since I retired as an Electrical Power Distribution Design Engineer and I'm rusty on the codes and some things have changed, but to the best of my recollection NO WARRANTY here's my electrical power engineer's opinion and recollection.


1) There's a good chance the 220 volt water heater HAS NO NEUTRAL ran to it but ONLY two Hots plus an Equipment GroundING Conductor (typically bare/green). Ifffffffffffffffffff so (as I suspect) see below ??.

2) For a 120 Volt receptacle there must be a true Neutral AND DO NOTTTTTTTTTTT TRY TO USE THE water heaters (typically bare/green) Equipment GroundING Conductor as a substitute Neutral !!!!!!!!! That's a serious code violation plus can create a safety hazard !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Neutral is NOTTTTTTTTT the same nor should be substituted or vice versa as an Equipment GroundING Conductor !!!!!!!!!!!

BOTTOM LINE A)

A 120 volt 2 pole 3 wire grounding NEMA 5-15R or NEMA 5-20R receptacle MUST have a Hot, a true Neutral, an Equipment GroundING Conductor. Even an old style 2 pole 2 wire 120 volt receptacle (without a third wire ground) requires a Hot and a NEUTRAL......... DO NOTTTTTTTTT USE AN EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR FOR A NEUTRAL

BOTTOM LINE B)

If (as I suspect) your 220 volt water heater is 220 ONLY (IE NO NEUTRAL) and ONLY has two hots L1 & L2 plus a bare/green Equipment GroundING Conductor DO NOTTTTTTTTTTT tap off one of its Hots (L1 or L2) and its bare/green Equipment GroundING Conductor to feed a 120 Volt receptacle

In addition there are other potential code violation and safety issues having to do with "Tap Rules", Proper overcurrent protection issues,,,,,,,And approved receptacle location issues that can prevent you from doing what you propose.

My best professional (albeit retired and rusty) electrical engineers advice is DO NOTTTTTTTTTTT DO THIS especially if there's NO Neutral ran to your water heater...?

[size=20:872ab6fba2][b:872ab6fba2] Where fire and life safety is at risk please DO NOT rely on lay opinions but instead consult trained professional electricians and engineers and local utility and any authority LEST YOU BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN OR OR GET SOMEONE ELECTROCUTED [/b:872ab6fba2] [/size:872ab6fba2]

You posted "some say its safe" Ask yourself Is it worth risking your life or your home on some saying its safe ?????

However I believe a mans home is his castle and he should be free to do as he pleases and I support anyones right to do as they like in their home.... YOUR HOUSE YOUR LIFE YOUR CHOICE not mine or anyone here

God Bless take care and best wishes
Click to expand...


(quoted from post at 20:54:51 01/23/20) If you don't know and have to ask, you'd be wise to hire an electrician.
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Agreed!!!!
 
(quoted from post at 09:25:33 01/24/20) If someone would walk through the "bad thing" that could happen if you used the ground as a neutral, it might help people understand.

However, I've slogged through this same old argument dozens of times, and not once, ever, has anyone ever detailed the "bad thing" that could happen. They just wave their hands and say "Don't do it, it's bad!"

This is just like telling a kid "Don't touch, it's hot" in regards to a boiling pot on the stove, when the kid has no frame of reference for what getting burned is like, or what hot is. They're just supposed to take the parents' word for it. So they reach out and "SSSSSSSSS!" "WAAAAAAAAAAH!"

Give us plebs a frame of reference.
Click to expand...

Because the kids here have no frame of reference to understand the explanation.
 
(quoted from post at 14:24:40 01/24/20)
(quoted from post at 09:25:33 01/24/20) If someone would walk through the "bad thing" that could happen if you used the ground as a neutral, it might help people understand.

However, I've slogged through this same old argument dozens of times, and not once, ever, has anyone ever detailed the "bad thing" that could happen. They just wave their hands and say "Don't do it, it's bad!"

This is just like telling a kid "Don't touch, it's hot" in regards to a boiling pot on the stove, when the kid has no frame of reference for what getting burned is like, or what hot is. They're just supposed to take the parents' word for it. So they reach out and "SSSSSSSSS!" "WAAAAAAAAAAH!"

Give us plebs a frame of reference.
Click to expand...

Because the kids here have no frame of reference to understand the explanation.
Click to expand...
fter years of John T and several others trying their best, I am afraid that you, buickanddeere, are absolutely correct! :cry:
 
The plan, now, is to tap into the ceiling fan circuit..drill a hole in the wall next to the water heater..then another into the closet...I'll just have to remember to keep the wall switch for the fan..on...and the fan switch off until I need it...The holes will be covered by the suspended ceiling I put in..except in the water heater compartment and the closet..which is where the garbage can is..Roughly 3' x 6',. plenty of room for the vacuum which is mounted on a seperate metal stand...
 
As a licensed electrician for 30 years and also having studied university level courses on electrical power distribution and NEC article 250, I agree 100% with John T and also Buickanddeere. I can add a few real life examples of what can happen with improper grounding. A typical example is a DIY homeowner who installs an electrical panel in a barn which is wired from a residence or building with the main service panel. The panel installed in the barn or outbuildings is a subpanel and must have 2 hots, a neutral, and ground in the wiring to the subpanel. The bonding screw which is installed to bond the neutral to the ground bar and enclosure of the subpanel must not be installed at the subpanel, but must be installed at the main service panel. The subpanel enclosure is electrically bonded to the main service panel grounding means. Neutral current flow is isolated from the subpanel enclosure so that the subpanel enclosure is not at the electrical potential of the neutral conductor. Just for kicks I would check various neutral conductor voltage to ground on live circuits. I usually saw 50-70 vac on the neutral conductor. Many electricians and electrical safety inspectors will say that the greatest shock hazard is from a voltage that paralyzes the body muscles so that there is not a big enough physical reaction to release the conductor. So for those who think it is okay to add a 120 vac circuit to a 3 wire 240 vac circuit, ask yourself if you want to energize an enclosure or appliance housing at 70 vac, and then have yourself or a family member be unexpectedly exposed to that voltage. It could cause a fatal injury, as John T has said. The amount of voltage present on a neutral conductor will depend on the type of electrical load on the circuit. If a 120 vac receptacle is added to a water heater circuit, and a corded drill is plugged into the receptacle, the drill is an inductive load which will energize the water heater jacket at the voltage of the neutral conductor. I have seen situations where the entire water piping system of a home was energized at the neutral potential of a circuit. Sometimes when turning on the kitchen faucet, a family member would be shocked. Bottom line, John T has labored long and hard to explain this subject. Listen and live to see another day!
 
I haven't read all the comments --- I just will give my 2 cents here . If all you are wanting is a light in a closet and by the sound of it GOD will strike you down if you run a 115 v off the 220 feed then how about this idea . Run a continuation of the 220 feed into the closet and wire TWO light sockets in series so that they both will light properly on 220v . You could also put a label on the socket saying that both bulbs must be the same wattage --- problem solved! Now we will hear from the safety police!
 
(quoted from post at 22:07:19 01/24/20) I haven't read all the comments --- I just will give my 2 cents here . If all you are wanting is a light in a closet and by the sound of it GOD will strike you down if you run a 115 v off the 220 feed then how about this idea . Run a continuation of the 220 feed into the closet and wire TWO light sockets in series so that they both will light properly on 220v . You could also put a label on the socket saying that both bulbs must be the same wattage --- problem solved! Now we will hear from the safety police!
Click to expand...
ot really.....the shell of one or both of those sockets will be at 120v above ground!
 
I don't understand your statement -- shell ?? what shell. a porcaline(sp) light socket dosent have a shell. Could you please explain -- perhaps they arnt made any more and I am behind in the times?
 
(quoted from post at 17:05:02 01/23/20) Most will say no, not to code.
A close dryer runs 0n 220, yet the timer
and blower motor run on 110.

The 3 wire dryers used same wire as
neutral and ground.

Only new construction require 4 wire
dryer.

Would I use 3 wire 220v to branch off a
120v? No

I can't explain why dryers, even today,
can do what you want to do.

George
Click to expand...

Because the manufacturer knows the load on the 110 will be limited to the light and timer, or whatever they design. Manufacturers and utilities do what they please because the liability consequences to them are catastrophic if they do it carelessly.
 

I've been doing my own wiring for the better part of 40 years now. Anything from replacing a light switch or outlet up to wiring a 36x60 shop to provide lights and 240 volts for a welder and air compressor. I even buried the 2-2-4 wire and made the connections at both ends. I've also ran wiring for a clothes dryer, and also for an electric water heater, and a few years later installed a 200 amp breaker box in the house and then completely re-wired the house. No one has received an electric shock, nor has anything become hot and caught on fire.
also, my electric bill is VERY reasonable.

According to what I have been reading here, I have done it all wrong, even though my insurance agent inspected my work and approved it.
 
(quoted from post at 22:07:19 01/24/20) I haven't read all the comments --- I just will give my 2 cents here . If all you are wanting is a light in a closet and by the sound of it GOD will strike you down if you run a 115 v off the 220 feed then how about this idea . Run a continuation of the 220 feed into the closet and wire TWO light sockets in series so that they both will light properly on 220v . You could also put a label on the socket saying that both bulbs must be the same wattage --- problem solved! Now we will hear from the safety police!
Click to expand...

You serious or just kidding and stirring the pot ?
 
(quoted from post at 14:58:26 01/25/20)
I've been doing my own wiring for the better part of 40 years now. Anything from replacing a light switch or outlet up to wiring a 36x60 shop to provide lights and 240 volts for a welder and air compressor. I even buried the 2-2-4 wire and made the connections at both ends. I've also ran wiring for a clothes dryer, and also for an electric water heater, and a few years later installed a 200 amp breaker box in the house and then completely re-wired the house. No one has received an electric shock, nor has anything become hot and caught on fire.
also, my electric bill is VERY reasonable.

According to what I have been reading here, I have done it all wrong, even though my insurance agent inspected my work and approved it.
Click to expand...

Just because it "works" and " nobody got hurt" . Does not make it right .
As observation , you seem rather proud of yourself being a self taught professional . Just like those self taught drivers, pilots, physicians , lawyers ,engineers etc
 
No one has received an electric shock, nor has anything become hot and caught on fire.

According to what I have been reading here, I have done it all wrong, even though my insurance agent inspected my work and approved it.
Click to expand...

Rusty, Hats off to you for taking the initiative to learn about/and how to do stuff on your own. I too do a lot of my own stuff.

No Offensive - but I agree with buickanddeere: Just because it "works" and " nobody got hurt" . Does not make it right

Also your statement : even though my insurance agent inspected my work and approved it.

I Mean, Really?????

I personally don't trust insurance agents to do what they're trained to do - broker insurance, let alone understand electrical code.

Best of luck.
 
"I do my own wiring" is NOT the same as "I tapped 110V off a 3-wire 220V circuit with no neutral."

You can do your own wiring and do it properly and safely. It's actually not that impressive of an accomplishment, really, when you realize how simple most of it is.
 
(quoted from post at 10:10:49 01/27/20)
No one has received an electric shock, nor has anything become hot and caught on fire.

According to what I have been reading here, I have done it all wrong, even though my insurance agent inspected my work and approved it.
Click to expand...

Rusty, Hats off to you for taking the initiative to learn about/and how to do stuff on your own. I too do a lot of my own stuff.

No Offensive - but I agree with buickanddeere: Just because it "works" and " nobody got hurt" . Does not make it right

Also your statement : even though my insurance agent inspected my work and approved it.

I Mean, Really?????

I personally don't trust insurance agents to do what they're trained to do - broker insurance, let alone understand electrical code.

Best of luck.
Click to expand...

I'm way out in the country. The only inspector IS the insurance agent, and most of those guys are also farmers and do-it-yourselfers.
 
(quoted from post at 23:20:41 01/27/20)

..., even though my insurance agent inspected my work and approved it.

I'm way out in the country. The only inspector IS the insurance agent, and most of those guys are also farmers and do-it-yourselfers.
Click to expand...

I worked in commercial insurance for 40 years and I would never trust any agent to inspect any electrical work, unless they were also a trained electrician (not likely however). A Loss Control professional could look it but would always suggest that an electrician do a detailed inspection, especially if it appears there might be a problem. Farm wiring? You've got to be kidding, that is the most improperly done stuff we ever see.

I pray for the safety of you and your family!
 
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