V8 installation in Farmall M

I know that this topic has come up previously. The reason I'm floating it again is that I am looking for specific help in his to get the job done.

I'm wanting to put a BBC 454 in my 44 Farmall M, and am looking for suggestions on how to accomplish the installation, particularly joining the engine to the tractor transmission.

Pretty simple. Make stands to mount the M flywheel to the engine back plate. lay the flywheel and back plate on the new block.Make a spacer/ adapter to mount the flywheel to the new crank. drill the back plate for the new engine. Either make a new front end or modify the existing frame rails to make everything fit. Will Need the biggest radiator you can fit into the sheetmetal to keep it cool if you are going to work it much

Why?
Did ford get into trouble putting a larger engine in front of the 8n tranny/rear end?
Did farmall get into trouble putting a larger engine in front of the M tranny/rear end?
My memory has had many birthdays so I could be wrong. I'm sure if I'm wrong, someone will tell me.
geo

(quoted from post at 06:37:31 12/08/19) Pretty simple. Make stands to mount the M flywheel to the engine back plate. lay the flywheel and back plate on the new block.Make a spacer/ adapter to mount the flywheel to the new crank. drill the back plate for the new engine. Either make a new front end or modify the existing frame rails to make everything fit. Will Need the biggest radiator you can fit into the sheetmetal to keep it cool if you are going to work it much

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Or he could hard block it. It shouldn't overheat in 250 feet, LOL.

I would get a 5.3 LS from a GM truck if I were building a puller. 5.3 stock bottom end can handle almost 1000hp and the engine weighs half of a 454, so more moveable weigh in a pull class. 4.8, 5.3, 6.0, 6.2 are also much more compact. The GM LS series has made the SBC and BBC good only for number matching restorations, and boat anchors.

I don't think the BBC fits down inside the frame rails of the M. I can't remember ever seeing BBC in an M. Neighbor had a 396 powered F-20 for a chore tractor, EX-pulling tractor from the 1960's, had a great road gear but struggled to run his mix-mill, pto rpm too low.
Seen a lot of SBC in M's.
Was a really sharp pulling M around northern Illinois in the late 1960's, early 1970's. Had a FORD GAA V-8 engine. 1100 cid. But it was based off a 1650 cid V-12 airplane engine, 60 degree cylinder bank angle, with some work it fit between the frame rails. There was a GMC 637 cid V-8 engine based off the 478 cid V-6, 60 degree V between banks, use used in heavy medium duty and heavy-duty trucks after the 702 cid V-12 went out of production. The 637 was the LARGEST displacement V-8 engine General Motors ever made.

(quoted from post at 14:47:17 12/08/19) Why?
Did ford get into trouble putting a larger engine in front of the 8n tranny/rear end?
Did farmall get into trouble putting a larger engine in front of the M tranny/rear end?
My memory has had many birthdays so I could be wrong. I'm sure if I'm wrong, someone will tell me.
geo

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Why would you care why he wants to put a 454 in [b:6674af1c48]HIS [/b:6674af1c48]tractor? He's asking for assistance. Do you have any? Sadly, I don't have any advice or I would provide it.

I have seen a few small block Chevy conversions. I don't know the exact details, but you do want to use the original M flywheel, so that you can use the original M starter. There is a class for antique pullers that allows V8 engines. Must be equipped with an RPM limiter. Some of those guys are running the small blocks that are bored and stroked to 383 cubic inches. They usually do quite well.

Everything that was posted below about the modern 5.3L
and larger GM engines is true,
However, those are computer controlled engines in regard
to spark and fuel management, if left stock.
Earlier SBC and BBC GM engines are more friendly
in those areas, in my opinion, but I?m getting old.

If you twist the drive train it will fail. heavier bearings in the bull gears are roller not ball.
Don't wind up the M flywheel or it will come apart catastrophically. They normally have small check marks and cracks that make no difference at even 2500 rpm. Make sure your adapter plate is aligned to the M clutch shaft to .001" concentricity. Jim

Ford did not put anything larger than the 120 CI flathead into any 8Ns.

Aftermarket suppliers did, however, most notably, Funk. Such conversions were most useful providing HP to the PTO for silage blowing, etc., because the HP could not be put to the ground in the small, light 8N tractor, although some DB tasks could be performed more quickly because the higher HP allowed use of higher gears.

Yes, things did and do break, most likely, the pinion support, if on is weighted down with oversized tires and increased HP.

Dean

Sometime in the late 1960s/early 1970s, I saw a Farmall M powered by a Chevrolet dual-quad 409/425. This was before hot rod tractor pulling had become popular, and the young owner had simply done it for fun from available parts.

When I saw it, he was having fun in the field with a three bottom trailer plow hitched behind.

No exhausts, just manifolds. No governor, just a baling wire throttle.

The noise was deafening, but the dirt was a flyin'.

No, I remember nothing about how he had installed it.

Dean

Dean, Thanks for the reply. I saw one on YouTube, a Frankensteinian monster, with the frame rails stretched to eight feet. I know a lot of work went into building it, but I'm wanting to come up with a machine that's not so outlandish, if you know what I mean.

I've got an M with a 430 Lincoln in it that fit in very nicely. It was built for pulling in the mid sixties, it even has wards tires. You could come look at it but I think we are not very close, I am in Ohio.

To do this job first ya need to take exact measurements , you use the back engine plate off the M engine and drill to mount the engine to it and center lione must be maintained , next ya need the exact stand off for the flywheel from the engine plat to the edge of the flywheel . Next you then have to make a new flywheel out of 4340 Steel and it has to be made from approved stock . . Next you will have to come up with a clutch that will take it and be explosion prof. Then comes the mounting of the engine , here your going to want to ft. mount it . Now i have no idea what you plan to do with this but if you plan to play in the field you will lean fast that you have not made a good choice . V 8 gas does not make any bottom end power and to get them into the power band your looking at BUZZING the engine in the 32-3600 RPM range and due to gearing your going to be way to fast . If you have never been on a tractor truning twice the factory RPM you have no idea on how fast they will go . Myself being not wright in the head i have buzzed up a couple tractors in my youth , one being and Oliver super 88 powered by a Ford 390 four bbl. with a prience (sp) governor set for 2650 RPM and with a manual over ride that we could buzzs it up to 5500 and a shade more , and a 460 gasser with and over ride and 5500 in fifth would get you cooking alone at over 65 MPH . The Oliver was great for wagon pulling on the road if yo had good towing wagons and if you got her in the power range of 3450 RPM she would really get with the program , down side of this was it DID NOT EMPRESS the state cop pulling to gravity wagons loaded with ear corn . Something about the SMV sign and the 25 MPH max speed and something about the 50 plus MPH when i had it kicked in the tail with the four BBl open . Back in the day around here we had two brothers that would install anything in anything .They installed many V 8's , many Allison couple Wright radials , they farmed with a 706 with a 549 I h V 8, W 9 with 460 fords, 500 inch Caddy engines . Personally helped them do a tractor build in a day and have it at the pull that evening . From a carcass and bare block and heads to a running , loaded up and on it's way by 5:30 . tractor was a Cockshut 40 and the engine was a 427 four bolt dual quad Ford. Now will your transmission and rear end take it ???? can't say you would have to open it up and look at evenything layen on the bench . All bearings would have to be good and tight , all gears would have to align , all shift collars would have to be tight all shift rails would have be tight and not woren at the detents good shifter forks to hold the gears for full contact , no chips on any gears , all rear end components would have to be really good and ya know what your still going to make spare pieces and parts.

(quoted from post at 12:44:09 12/08/19) Dean, Thanks for the reply. I saw one on YouTube, a Frankensteinian monster, with the frame rails stretched to eight feet. I know a lot of work went into building it, but I'm wanting to come up with a machine that's not so outlandish, if you know what I mean.

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ounds like that youtube welding guy's absolute kludge! You do not want anything like that mess!

Jim, thanks for the pointers. I talked with another person who suggested using a 454 bellhousing and building the clutch linkage to fit. Of course that would use the GM starter too, and the bellhousing holes can be rebored to match the M transmission if there is an M bellhousing that can be removed.

Another concern is the main shaft from the M transmission. As I recall, in the 454, there is a pilot bearing in the end of the crankshaft, and the shaft enters through the throwout bearing, then the clutch plate to the pilot bearing.

Do you think that the tractor main shaft splines will fit into a GM 454 clutch, or will I need to get a replacement shaft machined to fit?

I agree. If I can't do something that is presentable in public, I'll drop the
project.

Awesome advice, Tractor Vet, thanks for the guidance. Sounds like a lot of work, but would you do it again?

I don't envision ever using it in pulling contests, and revving the engine wil unlikely ever be under a load. More likely just to make noise and thrill the spectators during a parade.

As for me, I've had to ask myself why I want to take on a project like this, why do I want to do this. I guess the first answer is the challenge of how to do something this complex. I want something that will keep me busy and keep my mind working on solving problems. That really is the point of the project. I know it isn't easy, but I'm retired, need to keep busy. I grew up on a farm, had an old H that I loved working with. Now I have a bunch of tools I've been hauling from hither to yon for a lot of years. So, work on tractors.

When it's finished, it'll be a trailer queen. I won't be using it for farming. I live on an acre lot. I'll put it in the Show and Shines and parades in the area.

Randy, thanks for the invitation, I'd love to get a chance to see your tractor. But I live in Central Oregon.

How did you mate your engine to the tractor transmission?

Thanks for the comment. Yeah, me too, getting long in the tooth. But that's one of the reasons for the project.

As for the computerized tech, stripping all of that off.

The engine is an '86 4-bolt 454, I'm going old school, nice polished Edelbrock Torker II and an 850 Holley 4bbl, manual fuel pump, old school distributor, points and condenser.

I want to go for the old school WOW factor rather than the politically correct fuel economy and noise abatement. I want her noticed and appreciated. I'm debating leaving the stock flat top pistons in, but adding a 270 degree cam to give it some lope, again for the WOW factor. I'm having a hard time justifying building for horsepower when I have no intention of pulling or other competition.

Thanks, rusty Farmall. I appreciate your suggestions. The rev limiter. is that
for protection to keep the farmall drive line parts from exploding?

Tim, thanks so much for your support. I know that this project is controversial
with some, but there really is some method to my madness. I have a really nice
41 M that's been sitting for twenty-five years, and the engine is quite seized.
So, after I make the 454 installation, I want to rebuild the engine out of my 44
to replace the seized engine in my 41 M.

Very interesting, Dr. Evil. I would think that if a Chevy 396, which is the fore-runner to the BBC 427, that the 454 would fit. But, guess employing the "inline" 😀 tape measure might be warranted before I get too deep into the project. Thanks for the pointer.

Thanks for the info, Sprint 6. I was completely unaware of the info you shared regarding those engine bottom ends. Hate to say it, but I know nothing about pulling, but have enjoyed watching it on youtube. Yeah, I know that the 454 is very heavy. Fortunately, I really have no intention of "pulling" unless it's e neighbor that slides off rhe road in the snow. Thanks again.

Thanks for your comment, showcrop. When you say "hardblock it'" are you asying
running the block dry?

Geo, you asked why? The obvious answe is, Why not? If everyone stopped at why, we would never move forward. Life would get very stale and stagnant. Besides, it's the challenge of breaking the mold, being different. I just love the. people that are always complaining, "We ain't never done it like that afore." They're right. It's called progress. To paraphrase, When Thomas Edison was asked about how he felt after a thousand failed attempts to develop a functioning light bulb, he replied that he'd identified a thousand ways that didn't work. It only took one that did work to succeed.

Thanks so much for commenting.

Great comments, Dean. I'm learning so much here. Tahnk you.

Wow! Thanks, Charles. You make the process sound pretty easy. Could you send me a sketch so I don't screw it up?

Frame and entire design of an F-20 totally different than an M. Our local Fireman's association hosted an NTPA tractor pull for a couple years. Interesting what shows up to pull in the smaller classes. An almost stock looking Farmall 460 but instead of the 221 cid gas engine it had a 501 cid gas heavy truck engine. He pulled in 3-4 weight classes, when he got enough weight on he could really pull. There was a Minneapolis-Moline that gave that 460 a good run, Minny made a 800 cid in-line 6, and I think he had the 4 cylinder version of that engine, 533 cid. 460 won one class, Minny won the other class, both pulled within inches of the other.

There are some sectioned engineering drawings of various FARMALL tractors, the H and M in particular, they are very similar, shows details of the clutch and clutch housing, transmission and final drives. With a little effort you should be able be able to find them on-line. The M does in fact have a pilot bearing in the clutch, the clutch shaft extends back the 10-12 inches to a bolt together Universal joint right ahead of the input shaft into the transmission. The clutch is totally supported by the flywheel bolted to the engine crankshaft. The "bell housing" is cast as a section of the main frame of the tractor. No real way to avoid using any of that casting. It does a nice clean job of joining the engine to the transmission.
Company out east, in Pennsylvania, LEAMAN'S Tractor Parts that makes parts you will need, the engine plate that joins the engine to the main frame of the tractor. IH did use a 550 cid V-8 truck diesel engine in one of their BIG frame later model tractors. A 454 would bolt right into that chassis.

(quoted from post at 11:52:51 12/08/19) Thanks, rusty Farmall. I appreciate your suggestions. The rev limiter. is that
for protection to keep the farmall drive line parts from exploding?

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It is required equipment by the tractor pulling rules. Yes, it is meant to keep the various pieces all inside and to make sure no one gets hurt.

(quoted from post at 12:36:19 12/08/19) Thanks for your comment, showcrop. When you say "hardblock it'" are you asying
running the block dry?

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Hardblocking is a process where the coolant jacket is partially filled with a form of cement to strengthen the block. I see now that you don't plan to pull with it, but pullers do it to add longevity to the motor. Due to the short run time little cooling is needed.

In 1958, IH introduced models that could run on different fuels, like gasoline, diesel or LP gas. The Farmall 560 had between 57-61 HP depending on fuel. The Farmall 460 had between 47-50 HP. The Farmall 340 had between 32 and 39 HP. The Farmall 240 had 28 HP.

In 1958, IH introduced the Farmall 460 and 560 with more horsepower than their predecessors. But the company didn't extensively test the transmissions for those models. Before long, farmers were coming back to dealers reporting that after around 300 hours of heavy usage, the drives on their tractors were failing.

Some say this mistake may have hurt IH.

Somewhere I read IH when changing over from letter tractors to numbers, they used the same transmission and rear end parts,

Same with ford having tranny and rear end problems using 8N parts on the larger Jubilee overhead valve enging. 8n were in the 20's hp Jubilee in the 30's hp.

Not sure what ford had a flat head V8. It may have been an aftermarket idea.

Ford also made a huge mistake with the 6000. The SOS tranny couldn't hold up.
My dad bought one and after spending more time in the repair shop Ford gave him a newer model with a better SOS. Ford also changed colors.

I only asked WHY?? because you may have the same tranny issues IH had in 1958.

I usually make death machines and get yelled at on Yt after I make them.


A good Redneck can do about anything. Please don't let me stop you. GO FOR IT!! Please keep us posted.

geo.

Would i do it again ???? not sure . I have been kicking the idead of doing someting with the one 706 since it ate a piston and i am NOT putting in any more pistons . Waste of time and money . What i have been kicking around is pulling the gas out and maybe installing a non turbo 6.9 or a 7.3 diesel and making it a 7068 if i cqan find and engine that is not toast . There will be a lot of work to tone it down and recurver the power curve down in the 2650 range that way it will still be field friendly . Back the pump up to around a 80-to 100 hp. . The big thing is the torque curve to get it to make torque around 1750 . For you here is something else to think about even though it will be a play toy you will be putting all that thru two little old bolts either on the shaft or the yoke into the transmission . You can not hand regulate engine RPM well on a tractor so you will need some kind of gov. , that is easy a trip to a combine junk yard and a gov off any gleaner or massey gas will work .

There is no "bell Housing on an M. it is a one piece casting to the rear of the transmission. Putting the Farmall engine plate, on the GM plate won't help as the M plate shows no centered hole in the middle. The clutch shaft for an M is removable at a coupling (Ujoint like thing) and could be spliced. An easier way would be to buy a clutch disk that fits the splines and is the correct diameter for the PP. The farther forward the engine is (adapter at 1/2 inch to be a solid support) will require figuring pilot bearing and shaft snout lengths and spline lengths. A broken big block engine with all but the crank removed will be your friend for setting things up concentricity could be looked at with both the M and GM blocks back to back so the crankshafts were aligned with no FW on either. I am just thinking outloud. Jim

I plum hate electronic rev limiters . i can get better results from a belt drive with out listen to a missfiring engine . some of the yaho's around here run them in the antique v8 classes because they are not smart enought to figure out how to get what they want off a belt driven . Sorry i am old school and if you are playen drag racer and have to use one you can't afford to go play . In other words if ya can't afford to waste and engine on each pass your playen in the wrong game .

Thankyou, Geo. you make an excellent point about the potential transmission issues.Another good reason to not go crazy building horsepower.

Thanks for the explanation. makes sense.

Thanks so much. I was thinking to go without a governor or any kind of rev limiter. That was before I found out that the tractor rear end lacked the strength for a higher horsepower. Makes me question if the rearend needs to be beefed up, though I have n idea how to do that.

Most recent one I've seen had big block with rear end from M or Super M and kept a 4 speed truck transmission and chevrolet bellhousing. Now there's just a shaft-to-shaft connection to be made. Of course the tractor was longer and used tubing for custom frame rails and a long hood made in the style of the factory hood. They may have used a "chain coupler" for the shaft connections much like a lot of Olivers use. The chain coupler could do away with the factory coupler which is not going to like big block power.

You'll want to go through the rear and check the bearings and such. Consider upgrading the axle bearings to the roller type used in the later 560's. Others should be upgrade to a max capacity ball type.

I spoke to the owner at Leaman's. Essentially, first he said he could do everything for me, then that he didn't have time, then asked me if I found someone that could make the necessary adapters, to send him a copy of the plans. Bottom line, I don't have a warm fuzzy with them.

I'm wondering if I can mount a 454 flywheel mount to the crankshaft, then the M clutch, pressure and throw out bearing with the M input shaft. There may be some distance reach issues between the flywheel and the face of the tranny. Someone mentioned that it's critical to keep the drive line straight (true), at least that's what I think they were saying, but not sure how it would get out of line. I'm working on a 49 M in my shop right now, rewiring, resetting the wheels in and installing a 3-point hitch. When I finish that, the 44 goes in for the 454 installation. Guess the issue will become more obvious once I split the tractor and see what I have to work with.

Jim, I like the way you are thinking. If you have any more ideas, I'm all ears.

Terry

Agreed, but I just looked up the Farmall M normal max RPM: 1450. Not sure that the 454 will run that slow.

Terry

(quoted from post at 17:19:18 12/08/19) I plum hate electronic rev limiters . i can get better results from a belt drive with out listen to a missfiring engine . some of the yaho's around here run them in the antique v8 classes because they are not smart enought to figure out how to get what they want off a belt driven . Sorry i am old school and if you are playen drag racer and have to use one you can't afford to go play . In other words if ya can't afford to waste and engine on each pass your playen in the wrong game .

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You and me both. I hate the sound of a mis-firing engine.

(quoted from post at 10:22:08 12/08/19) I don't think the BBC fits down inside the frame rails of the M. I can't remember ever seeing BBC in an M. Neighbor had a 396 powered F-20 for a chore tractor, EX-pulling tractor from the 1960's, had a great road gear but struggled to run his mix-mill, pto rpm too low.
Seen a lot of SBC in M's.
Was a really sharp pulling M around northern Illinois in the late 1960's, early 1970's. Had a FORD GAA V-8 engine. 1100 cid. But it was based off a 1650 cid V-12 airplane engine, 60 degree cylinder bank angle, with some work it fit between the frame rails. There was a GMC 637 cid V-8 engine based off the 478 cid V-6, 60 degree V between banks, use used in heavy medium duty and heavy-duty trucks after the 702 cid V-12 went out of production. The 637 was the LARGEST displacement V-8 engine General Motors ever made.

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A gut that I know had a 454 in a M. He got it stuffed in there with exhausts coming down and back, all chromed. He did a nice job on it.

Farmall M with a Ford/Navistar 7.3 diesel, a 454 should fit no problem! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcX2cQO9HMs

A farmall M with a 454 that has a belt driven governor to keep the rpms below 2500 https://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?aid=17537

Let me put it this way top you , the last thing you want to do is use the STOCK flywheel and the STOCK clutch . Can we say handgernade , If you have never seen a flywheel or a clutch explode and the force it unleashes then son you ain't seen nothing . Many years ago i personally had a BLOW PROFF clutch come apart and at the time i had the best blow proff bell housing and when this SHIEFFER (SP) CAME APART it went thru the scatter shield , it removed the master cylinder off the fire wall it made big holes in the hood it sliced thru the steering coelom like a hot knife thru butter , made BIG holes in the pavement and what bounded back up off the road made huge dents in the rear floor boards . A person i know was messing with his old M M pulling tractor next to his house and was trying to get it to twist more RPM's like double factory when she came apart sending shell we say Spare pieces and parts thru the BBRICK siding thru the first wall thru the second wal thru the third wall and thru the forth way and inbedding it's self in the fifth wall of the house . I was at qa tractor pull many years back in Wosster Ohio when a guy with with a W 9 with two 430 linclon engines broke the rear off the crank on the first engine and the nose off the crank of the second engine sending the flywheel thru the 1/4 inch home made cover airborne up thru the stands luckly above the heads of all out over top the grand stands down into the parking lot thru one cars windshield and roof and stopping in the second . Those of flywheels have heat and stress cracks running deep and are a BOMB waiting to go off . Back in my lets go FAST days of engine building while working for a large Ford Dealer and taking care of the drag cars i got to do a lot of shell we say engine testing and the making of spare pieces and parts. while standing on the outside of thick bullet proof glass and thick concrete walls that showed the end results of when things said yuck yucko and lots of steam and oil got spilled and new markings went into the walls when things did not go as planned . So before you go telling someone how to do this and that when you have never done this or that lets take a little time to THINK before you tell someone how to . I don't have a problem with him wanting to do it but when i tell sopmeone something i want them and people around them to be safe, Life is way to short to start with . I told him on how i would go about it and what i would use for a flywheel and a clutch and you make a flywheel out of 4340 SMAE approved stock not the cast iron flywheel . Then ya need to balance it , now not being a Chebby guy i don't know if the 454 is and internal or external balanced engine so that has to be addressed then you have to address the input issue as the four bolts two on the output and the two on the input need to have something done . There is a ton of work involved with any swap and even more when your going off bread . Been playen this game sine 1962 and still learning and school is in session every stinking day.


Oh yea and one more point to make here a week after i sent my clutch to lunch and putting my fancy car out into a hay field when the clutch let go Rollo the rich kid with his brand new daddy bought me Corvette was empressing the ladys at a local beech and while doing a power speed shift his clutch blew and flywheel came off the back of that 327 300 Hp and came thru and removed BOTH his feet along with other injurys and darn near died from blood loss.

Does the end of the chevy crank accept a pilot bearing ? You will need a trans adapter to mount the starter etc.

In the adapter, use countersunk spline or hex key to attach to both castings and through the motor plate when ever they get in each others way. This allows them to be flat, so as to not cause grief to the mount. I would use 1/4" wall rectangular tubing for modified frame rails, The box is much stronger than the channel. Jim

have to look to verify, but don't think I ever saw one that didn't.

WOW! Both of those articles were amazing. I'm so glad that the 454 article
actually included the contact information.

Thanks, that's similar to what I envision: vertical chrome stacks coming up both sides, chromed intake, rocker arm covers, oil vent
caps, dipstick, fuel pump, timing chain cover, etc. Wish I could figure a way to smooth up the front and back so I could remove the
hood to show off the bling at shows. Might even powder coat the carb, just for the wow factor.

Thanks, excellent suggestions that I hadn't considered. Think that by the time this project is done, I might know that tractor inside and out!

Thank you all for your most appreciated comments and over the top guidance. I am considering opening a project page for this job. However, that said, had some recent surgery so I'm pretty much out of commission, probably until spring. About all I can do is go out to the shop and look at my tractors, and think about what I wish I could be doing.

So, until next time, remember, "If it ain't red, leave it in the shed."

Oregunian