(800) 853-2651
SHOP NOW

Extremely stumped...

J

John Achmann

Member
Went to look at a guys 314 John Deere lawn tractor. He took out the kohler engine and installed a new Predator engine from harbor fright. He got it all hooked up and running. Now the problem, with the engine running when you turn on the pto it kills the engine. This is an electric clutch with no belt on at the moment. We bypassed all safety switches to eliminate any of them being bad. Still stops when the pto is engaged. So then we took another battery and ran the wires from the clutch to the extra battery. Same thing dies as soon as you turn it on. I?ve tried turning off the pto switch to see if the engine will return to run but it don?t, it just dies out. Are we having a magnetic field problem that is affecting something on the engine? Called the company but no help there.
 

It sounds like there is an interference. The PTO pulley is probably binding on something. Does the pulley turn freely when the engine is off? May just need to put a washer under the PTO assembly.
 
Try about half choke before engaging electric pto. Had the same problem on a zero turn mower and this worked.
 
Can you narrow the problem to mechanical or electrical? Can you turn the PTO by hand with the engine off and the clutch engaged? When it dies, do you still have spark at the spark plug or does it die because of loss of spark? Possible ground wire problem?
 
Call Leo. He?s a lawnmower guru! Are you sure that isn?t a left hand clutch? Maybe you need to put a twist in the belt.
 
It?s electrical for sure. The clutch don?t bind or hit anything. Checked spark when turning on pto. Spark is there but the engine starts to die out before the spark goes away. There is a fuel shut off on the carb. We have removed the clutch wire circuit from the engine circuit so there should be nothing in common and it still stops.
 
What I was thinking, starving for fuel under load, or maybe governor not working.
 
My 322 will do that when it is a new start up. Don't want to say cold but the motor is not up to temp yet. I pull the choke part way and it comes out of it. Must put a pretty good load on the engine to kick it in.
 
get a new electro clutch. It is internally shorted giving any juice going to the ignition system an easier, less resistant path to ground
 
If George reads your post then he'll likely have some sort of a Handyman Corner solution which you might consider following. You might be putting your life on the line but it's all in the name of backwoods engineering ...... LOL !!!
 
I had a battery problem on my mower acted like that. I could start it and drive it around. As soon as I turned on the pto clutch it died.
 
It sounds like there is still a safety switch involved.

If the clutch is unplugged, does it still die?

Check the power to the solenoid on bottom of the carb, see if that looses power. No power there and it will not get fuel through the main jet.

Try disconnecting the mag kill wire, that would narrow it down to a safety switch. If this is the machine I'm thinking of, it has some very complex safetys, redundant features to safeguard against tampering or switch malfunctions.
 
The alternator on the Predator engine may not be strong enough to handle the demand of the electric clutch, causing a voltage drop, weak/no spark, end engine quitting.

I know battery condition is important even on cheap mowers because of the amount of current the electric clutch takes. Can't have a weak battery or bad charging system.
 
(quoted from post at 07:31:55 09/18/19) Went to look at a guys 314 John Deere lawn tractor. He took out the kohler engine and installed a new Predator engine from harbor fright. He got it all hooked up and running. Now the problem, with the engine running when you turn on the pto it kills the engine. This is an electric clutch with no belt on at the moment. We bypassed all safety switches to eliminate any of them being bad. Still stops when the pto is engaged. So then we took another battery and ran the wires from the clutch to the extra battery. Same thing dies as soon as you turn it on. I?ve tried turning off the pto switch to see if the engine will return to run but it don?t, it just dies out. Are we having a magnetic field problem that is affecting something on the engine? Called the company but no help there.
Click to expand...

If this is for REAL, and the engine dies when the electric clutch is energized, even by a spare battery, it would have to be that the magnetic field from the clutch coil is somehow stopping the electronic ignition from triggering.

Hey, let's confirm that by using a spark tester to verify that spark actually fails! (Also, does this have a electromagnetic fuel shutoff solenoid on the carb that may somehow affected?)

One other though, I think theses engines have ball bearings on the crankshaft, but is it possible there's crankshaft endplay that's affected by the clutch being energized that somehow messes up triggering of the ignition?

That being said, I have read MANY posts on the 'net where a Predator has been installed in a DEERE garden tractor, seems to be a VERY popular repower, and from those reports, they work well.

So what's going on, perhaps ignition system is not quite right/marginal and quits sparking to easily from an external magnetic influence?

I would check "air gap" between flywheel magnets and coil, perhaps a little less or a little more might make a difference?

As I understand you, you have tried powering the clutch coil by a totally separate spare battery.

If that is the case, and you are connecting direct to the clutch coil without ANY tractor wiring involved, just for giggles try reversing the polarity of the power to the clutch coil, battery (-) to the clutch coil lead and battery (+) to the chassis.

This will make the clutch "pull in" but produce a magnetic field of the opposite polarity. Does that affect the engine "dying"?
 
Thanks bob so far I think you have understood what is going
on and what I have done.i checked spark with a screwdriver
crossed to the spark plug. When the clutch is turned on the
engine starts to die but there?s spark for about two to three
seconds. Yes it has a fuel shut off. That I have hot wired to the
tractor battery but still shuts off. I?m thinking that there?s a little
box that is part of the low oil shut down on the side of the
engine that might be causing the problem when the clutch is
turned on. I?m also wondering if the clutch is grounding
through the engine is that my problem? Maybe try a two wire
clutch instead of a one wire?
 
Some kohlers if I remember correctly had a ground wire for killing the engine wired to the ignition switch. Check to see if the wires to the clutch maybe reversed grounding the engine when engaged.
 
IIRC some Predator/Honda clones use "ground to run" ignition; generally older domestic engines used "ground to kill" ignition. Without knowing specifics of your setup, is it possible that the clutch coil switching is either applying a positive to the engine ignition or lifting the ground?
Quite a few years ago a friend and I ran into a like problem on a Honda/Briggs swap, however do not remember exact conditions. Good luck.
 
That's my thought too, sms, running too lean! Is the carb adjustable, can the high speed be opened up a little. This is similar to what happened to my BIL's generator. As soon as he plugged something in it would die, he thought it was electrical. No, just running too lean!
 
(quoted from post at 06:42:20 09/18/19) My 322 will do that when it is a new start up. Don't want to say cold but the motor is not up to temp yet. I pull the choke part way and it comes out of it. Must put a pretty good load on the engine to kick it in.
Click to expand...

MSD how can clutch with no belt on it put a load on the motor?
 
(quoted from post at 06:42:20 09/18/19) My 322 will do that when it is a new start up. Don't want to say cold but the motor is not up to temp yet. I pull the choke part way and it comes out of it. Must put a pretty good load on the engine to kick it in.
Click to expand...

MSD how can clutch with no belt on it put a load on the motor?
 
I think you will need a two wire coil for the electric clutch. I ran into this years ago when the JD 317s had the Kohler motors failing. The JD kits used an Onan motor. This fellow had a off brand motor ( It was some type of imported motor 25 years ago. I can not remember the brand) The one wire clutch grounded through the motor. That would make the solid state ignition on that motor quit firing at the correct time. It was firing but WAY out of time. I wasted the better part of two days fooling with the darn thing.
 
(quoted from post at 20:41:00 09/18/19) I think you will need a two wire coil for the electric clutch. I ran into this years ago when the JD 317s had the Kohler motors failing. The JD kits used an Onan motor. This fellow had a off brand motor ( It was some type of imported motor 25 years ago. I can not remember the brand) The one wire clutch grounded through the motor. That would make the solid state ignition on that motor quit firing at the correct time. It was firing but WAY out of time. I wasted the better part of two days fooling with the darn thing.
Click to expand...

"The one wire clutch grounded through the motor."

The second/ground wire from those clutches is connected to the steel "frame" of the clutch which is bolted to the engine "face".

Dunno why having the "return" side of a coil that typically draws 5 Amps or less connected to the "body" of the engine should cause problems??????????

Will be interesting if he posts back when he figures this thing out!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

P
update on 544 hydro PTO
Replies
3
Views
338
buickanddeere
B
N
International 2424
2
Replies
24
Views
1K
nanate25
N
R
Case 2390 clutching kills engine
Replies
6
Views
617
Ron Bailey
R
Turkeyfoot
Ignition switch 0n 83 mustang GT
Replies
16
Views
629
BarnyardEngineering
BarnyardEngineering
T
IH 300u problems
Replies
12
Views
465
tarment10
T
Tractor Parts Tractor Manuals

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Copyright © 1997-2024 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy

Back
Top