Did John Deere xopy Case?

Sekelbos

New User
In 1953 Case released their first 377 cu inc 6 cylinder diesel engine.John Deere at that stage was working on the replacement of their two cylinder engines.Their first six cylinder engine was a 380 cu inch unit on the 4010.
In the late fifties Case replaced the 377 cu inch engine with a 401 , JD went to a 404 on the 4020!
Case must also be on of the first companies that developed a "family" range of engines eg. 251 cu inch four cylinder derived from the 377 engine.
 
And your point is?

I mean NO, JD didn't copy Case. The never got bought out! Heck Case was the victim of a buy out in the 70's and Tenneco didn't buy out IH until 1985!

Kinda funny but most guys don't have a clue. Cat was the first AG tractor made in the US with a diesel engine. So what if it was on tracks. Then Cat had the 1st factor turbo in the early 50's on the bigger D crawlers. Ford had the first power shift called the Select-O-Speed. I don't remember off the top of my head who had the First Live and Independent PTO's. But they were out there before 1950.

Here is the scoop. Oliver, Case, AC, IH and many others failed through the years. Don't mean they were a bad tractor. Just that they had a bad business model that failed the company. CaseIH is not Case and IH combined. It was Tenneco and is now FIAT. AC construction is owned by FIAT too. Ford sold out to New Holland who in turn were bought up by FIAT. Tenneco and later FIAT were smart enough to keep the CaseIH tags on the tractors because of brand loyalty. AC failed. Became AGCO. Now the White and AC names are nothing but a memory. They bought out MF too. So really the only US farm tractor company that still has it's heritage is JD. And no, I'm not a huge JD fan. Just the facts.

If I were to buy a new tractor today under 200HP or so? I'd look at Kubota first. I don't know what I'd do if I needed something larger. AGCO here is a joke because of the dealer. CaseIH I've been hearing a lot of complaints about the newer stuff. And then JD has it's issues too.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 05:37:09 09/15/19) In 1953 Case released their first 377 cu inc 6 cylinder diesel engine.John Deere at that stage was working on the replacement of their two cylinder engines.Their first six cylinder engine was a 380 cu inch unit on the 4010.
In the late fifties Case replaced the 377 cu inch engine with a 401 , JD went to a 404 on the 4020!
Case must also be on of the first companies that developed a "family" range of engines eg. 251 cu inch four cylinder derived from the 377 engine.

No
 
In general JD took ideas from other companies, built them out of a tad more cast iron and when you copy a design you probably can improve it a little, and present it to
the green underware crowd and they ooh and ahh over it like no one has ever seen such a thing before.

Now, JD makes good tough well designed stuff, and they have the loyal following and long business history to show that.

But they have never been innovative, they always copy what others have done.

It works for them, maybe it is their strength to never come out with something new, just copy what the others develop.

Paul
 

Paul
I don't have "green underwear" so due to your statement of JD copied "everything" can you enlighten me on what company had a Syncro-range trans that JD copied it from?
Thanks,Jim
 
JD developed the ROPS and shared that with the industry.....first with 1000 rpm pto, lower link sensing 3 pth, closed centre hydraulics that powered all functions including steering a nd brakes...as a company, they did have some innovations.

Ben
 
Doubt it. I know from reading that Deere targeted a certain size tractor in terms of horsepower then went about building the engine to do it. They figured out the RPM's, stroke, etc. that they wanted which ultimately arrived at a displacement. Not only did Deere when approaching 100 HP hit the 400 C.I. level but so did IH, Ford, and others.
 
JD did not copy case as the engines are of very different designs at that time. They did however use a case LA to test their first diesel engines since they had nothing in the works that had fore/aft shafts to use a regular engine and the LA rear was strong enough to test the high hp engines. They did borrow/steal/ buy a few patents from case tho. One that remains a bit of a mystery is the hundred series combines as there is a couple pics of Cases new prototype combine they were going to replace the 60 series with and they look almost exactly like the JD hundred series which came out a year or so later. The old time case folks claim when case decided not to pursue combines they sold that design to JD. No one has found any evidence of that tho.
 
It takes a certain displacement to make a given HP at a chosen RPM. I'm sure the marketing folks had their input too, make ours just a bit bigger.

How many people derided AC for their "little" diesel engines?

Now in this day and age, Deere is innovative in the GPS and ag data arena. They are market leading and the ones to keep up with.
 

I don't know why Case people like to carry that combine rumor around as there is no truth to it. JD started work on the 3300-7700 series in 1963. They initially used 55s and 95s which carried the same "insides" of the 00 series. The first prototypes hit the fields in 1964.

Also, the Case LA with the 3-71 Detroit was used to test the limits of 2 wheel drive horsepower and technology. JD actually tested that tractor about 60 miles from me and ran it up against a 110 hp 4 wheel drive Wagner TR-9. Further testing led to the development of the big 5010/20 and 8010 4 wheel drive tractors. Case should have been doing the same testing because they kind of missed the boat in the 60s by not offering high horsepower tractors to compete with the JD 5020 and IH 1206/56 series.
 
Lets look back case borrowed from john deere too,v series was derived in part from H john deere parts.that was in old abe news look at front wheels.
Im biased as im ok with case and john deere but case could been number 1 if they would got rid of couple bull headed leaders. They built first thrashers,built their own steam engines.they had the ability to design but leaders who decided on selling only what was on hand,jd ihc were busy developing.
Live pto cant remember but real early tractor built via vender parts had live pto.but wasnt cockshutt first with live pto? Not like 300 case or wd allis?
 
ON a lot of things John Deere was Jonny come lately.. That includes a twine baler, corn binder 2 row cultivating tractor.
 
Deere was first with hydraulics... first power lift, and later first remote cylinder. And in other ways, very behind. Last with 2 cylinders, hand clutch, walker style combines...
 
You are right on most of that. Not true on the hand clutches. Plenty of 1960s Case 930s around here with hand clutches.
 
I don't think it would be possible to "copy" someones current engine production unless there was inside information being leaked.

It takes years to develop and test an engine.

They always start with an undersized displacement, an over built bottom end, then start increasing the output as a marketing ploy and continue to increase to the max the bottom end will stand.

While this is happening, they are developing the next generation of engine.

There probably is a degree of spying and employee exchange going on, and it's impossible to keep secret what works, and especially what doesn't!
 
Reading through all the comments its clear to me that the Case engine design was not directly copied. Most probably the marketing people at JD recommended that they need to have a similar design, relative big displacement, seven main bearings etc.
At that stage many diesel engines were derived from older gas engine designs with weak bottom ends that lead to broken cranshafts etc.The Case design broke new ground and had to be followed.
 
The Case 377 engine first used in the 500 was a beautiful engine. But IH, JD, MH, and Oliver all had diesels in the market before Case. And the Oliver?s were 6 cylinder just like Case. Somebody mentioned Johnny come lately. Well when you are the last to put a diesel engine on the market, you had time to study and design a excellent engine.
 
AHHH the good old days of the space race Oh I mean car HP oh no tractor cubic inches. Everyone tried to out do the other If One had 401 cu the other came out with a 404. Has nothing to do with engine itself different designs. It all had to do with sales.
 
Case offered the 930 Western with either hand or foot clutch til 68. Only available in the Western with the 6spd trany tho.
 
And all those hand clutches should have been shoved up the engineers. Then the designer taken out and hung. All worked backwards and a pain to hitch up anything. The clutches pushed forward while trying to see backwards for the tongue lining up with the drawbar to put a pin in.
Now the Caterpillar clutch pulled back so you could see the tongue and drawbar to put the pin in. Then shove forward to disengage.
 

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