As someone who worked in manufacturing for a career, I can tell you that we were exposed to the global market, with NAFTA, and other trade agreements. Big business benefited, workers and small businesses lost. When we were the high cost producer in manufacturing, we shed jobs and factories. No systematic subsidies to keep the doors open. Basically, go find something else to do. Even within AG, who is saving the dairy farmers? Nobody. It s survival of the fittest for most folks, except Big AG and the government and its suppliers. I don t think there is going to be much sympathy for millionaire farmers by folks who work for a living.
- Thread starter Spook
- Start date
Back when the government got into the program business during the 1930's a fair number of people were under fed. Couple that with the fact most still knew and could
talk to an elder that saw the unrest in the old country that happened when people were under fed. In 2019 we should be civilized enough that underfed people if it were to
happen would not drag politicians from their bed to be stoned in the town square. The worry today is that underfed people in other parts of the world will resort to violence
both inside and outside their border to solve the problem. Keeping agriculture stable has been and is about keeping civil order. It also has the side benefit come election
day of "not throwing the bums out of office." It really has little to do with helping the farmer.
talk to an elder that saw the unrest in the old country that happened when people were under fed. In 2019 we should be civilized enough that underfed people if it were to
happen would not drag politicians from their bed to be stoned in the town square. The worry today is that underfed people in other parts of the world will resort to violence
both inside and outside their border to solve the problem. Keeping agriculture stable has been and is about keeping civil order. It also has the side benefit come election
day of "not throwing the bums out of office." It really has little to do with helping the farmer.
Bruce from Can.
Well-known Member
- Location
- Woodville, Ontario, Canada
Affordable food is important to maintain stable
government. What you call affordable, may differ
from person to person, but one thing remains a
constant. It will not matter how much money you
have in your pocket, if there isn?t food on the shelf to
buy, you will still go hungry. Food production isn?t
really comparable to manufacturing. If
manufacturing of a certain product ceased because
of a shortage of material or market, the people most
effected would be the folks that work directly within
that industry. If agricultural production drops to half
of what it is today, everyone would feel the effects,
not just farmers.
government. What you call affordable, may differ
from person to person, but one thing remains a
constant. It will not matter how much money you
have in your pocket, if there isn?t food on the shelf to
buy, you will still go hungry. Food production isn?t
really comparable to manufacturing. If
manufacturing of a certain product ceased because
of a shortage of material or market, the people most
effected would be the folks that work directly within
that industry. If agricultural production drops to half
of what it is today, everyone would feel the effects,
not just farmers.
I want to gloat about what's happening,but I have friends who are really suffering,so I can't in their cases,but for others,I'm just waiting to dance on their graves. If a farmer feels like me feels like that,yea,I can imagine how the average urban and suburban (D) is gonna feel.
Commercial Farmer
Member
Most are millionaires.
Every other commodity is a free market. The dairy guys aren t subsidized, the guys growing apples aren t getting checks or subsidized insurance. Name another business that gets a government subsidized insurance program that guarantees revenue? A lot of folks talk about being independent, free market guys. As long as they get their welfare checks. These farm programs were put in place in the 30 s, and imho, way outdated. Why should some factory worker or truck driver subsidize millionaire farmers?
I d say that you guys are more free market than the US guys. Are you getting subsidized insurance? I know you have production schemes, to limit production, but at least it s your buying quota, sort of like a cooperative. The US guys are getting straight up welfare. Some even talk of farming the programs, manipulating their production to maximize government cheese....
M-MAN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bostic, NC
Getting bored from no flames the last few
weeks?
weeks?
Adirondack case guy
Well-known Member
Millionaire farmers with multi Million Dollar debt loads. There is no other business that buys all inputs at preset retail price and has no control over the selling price of his products. Today his product is worth xxxxxxx$. Tomarrow it is only worth xxxx$ because of conditions beyond his control. Farm crops have a short shelf life and can't be put into inventory until a market swing occurs and profit can be realized. --------Loren
Spook I will gladly have the government get entirely out of agriculture. Close down every single FSA office. Then I can grow what I want where I want and when I want.
Guess what will happen long term???? First over the long term prices would raise. Second there would be wild swings in the production of products. A crop would have a higher price and everyone would plant it so when harvested the price would fall. Then the next year little of that product would be planted. So there would be wide swings in production and price.
Read the documents that outline what the USDA was formed to do. Job number 1, Maintain an economical and abundant food supply. Does not say a single thing about protecting a farmer/producer.
So take all the costs of the USDA and add them to the food cost of the average American and the cost is the lowest by percentage, of anywhere in the world. So the USDA and the government programs are doing what they were designed to do. They where enacted in the 1930s when a large percentage of the population was under fed because of a lack of economical food.
My Mother can tell you all about going to bed hungry because she did not have food. She watched her Mother eat last so the kids could have food. My first wife talked about her and her Mother eating small portions so the younger kids could have enough food to not be too hungry. That has not happened since the Depression for the vast majority of the US population.
You really think there are no subsidies to manufacturing or the average worker???? Minimum wage is one average worker subsidy. Many more of the employment rules that protect the average worker do nothing for the farmer. Also low interest loans to other countries to buy manufactured products not just farm products. Many other departments of the government that do things that benefit manufacturing indirectly too.
Some are posting about how they have no sympathy for millionaire farmers. Better not look around too hard. Having a million dollars of assets is not too hard these days for a lot of the population. Farmers are a small percentage of that total. For every successful farmer I can name you ten that did not make it and took them years to get back to financial stability. Lots of half to one million dollar houses around many urban areas. So truthfully a million dollars is not near as much as it used to be. Heck a pickup can costs $50K now.
The Federal and sate governments subsidize EVERYONE in the US to some degree. Ag gets a big bulls eye because it is one of the few that is a direct payment. Heck the earned income tax credit would be massive because it is across the entire population. You never see what that cost is. Anyone on Medicare is getting subsidized. If you have flood insurance your getting subsidized. So we all are getting government help one way or another. So you had better watch pointing too many fingers. Your favorite program might be next in line to complain about.
Guess what will happen long term???? First over the long term prices would raise. Second there would be wild swings in the production of products. A crop would have a higher price and everyone would plant it so when harvested the price would fall. Then the next year little of that product would be planted. So there would be wide swings in production and price.
Read the documents that outline what the USDA was formed to do. Job number 1, Maintain an economical and abundant food supply. Does not say a single thing about protecting a farmer/producer.
So take all the costs of the USDA and add them to the food cost of the average American and the cost is the lowest by percentage, of anywhere in the world. So the USDA and the government programs are doing what they were designed to do. They where enacted in the 1930s when a large percentage of the population was under fed because of a lack of economical food.
My Mother can tell you all about going to bed hungry because she did not have food. She watched her Mother eat last so the kids could have food. My first wife talked about her and her Mother eating small portions so the younger kids could have enough food to not be too hungry. That has not happened since the Depression for the vast majority of the US population.
You really think there are no subsidies to manufacturing or the average worker???? Minimum wage is one average worker subsidy. Many more of the employment rules that protect the average worker do nothing for the farmer. Also low interest loans to other countries to buy manufactured products not just farm products. Many other departments of the government that do things that benefit manufacturing indirectly too.
Some are posting about how they have no sympathy for millionaire farmers. Better not look around too hard. Having a million dollars of assets is not too hard these days for a lot of the population. Farmers are a small percentage of that total. For every successful farmer I can name you ten that did not make it and took them years to get back to financial stability. Lots of half to one million dollar houses around many urban areas. So truthfully a million dollars is not near as much as it used to be. Heck a pickup can costs $50K now.
The Federal and sate governments subsidize EVERYONE in the US to some degree. Ag gets a big bulls eye because it is one of the few that is a direct payment. Heck the earned income tax credit would be massive because it is across the entire population. You never see what that cost is. Anyone on Medicare is getting subsidized. If you have flood insurance your getting subsidized. So we all are getting government help one way or another. So you had better watch pointing too many fingers. Your favorite program might be next in line to complain about.
I agree that a million is not a big number anymore. But it still is a yardstick that 90% of the population would fail. I don t see starvation in other countries that have deregulated AG?
Yeah, everyone is getting some cheese. Some folks get welfare. Most farmers wouldn t trade checks with them.
As far as ag being difficult, a lot of businesses are difficult. My family has been in construction, manufacturing as small businessmen. Again, no subsidized stuff. Most manufacturing that gets export subsidies are defense related or like Boeing. My point isn t that other sectors of the economy don t get subsidies, but AG does, and they don t want to admit to it. I think public opinion has changed against AG, they see it as a big subsidized business, that really does nothing for them, populated by reactionary people. The world could, within a few years, do without American AG. Hunger isn t a function of production, but economic issues.
Btw, thanks for the civil tone. Many folks get real defensive, real quick.
SodBuster87
Member
One thing people are quick to forget when talking about agriculture in the context of govt. Is that food is a weapon. Sure the govt can send goons with guns etc. But if they can control when and what you eat,. This is a much more effective means of controlling a population. To this end a few big ropes are easier to pull them thousands of little strings.
Sod Buster
Sod Buster
It was heavily subsidized by government purchases and parity prices until Reagan. We were due a parity increase right after he was elected,and one of the first things he did was put a stop to that. It wasn't until fairly recently that the subsidies stopped,if they even have been. In the last years that I milked,we had to take our milk check stubs to the FSA office and they'd pay us a subsidy in a direct deposit to our bank accounts. I sold the cows in 2003. I believe you can still buy in to a government program where they'll do the same thing.
The dairy guys could be subsidized if they signed the paperwork. The Dairy Margin Protection Program was in the 2014 Farm Bill. It was a voluntary sign up. That Farm Bill went until Dec 2018. Not being in the dairy business, I don't know if was carried forward to the new Farm Bill, I suspect it was. Dairy has always been subsidized . Can only guess the gov't doesn't want housewives to run out of cheese, fluid milk and milk powder.
I?d love to see the govt get out of Ag, but.....
Every govt wants a secure food source to keep their citizens calm. ?Food is a weapon? is somewhat true, tho it is more properly ?food is a tool? for govt to use as a carrot
as well, cheap food prices keep citizens calm and spending on other things, it is part of the entire social engineering done by governments.
Govt ain?t going to give up the power they have by controlling food, generally the cheaper it is the better for govt purposes.
Just about everyone in the USA is a millionaire, if used in the same sense you are using that concept.
You go to work in a factory and run a molding machine, that machine, the concrete it sits on, the roof over it, the climate control around it, the office staff needed to keep
it running, the staff to maintain it, shipping and handling to bring in and take away product.... that?s gonna be a million bucks per factory worker too.
And is exactly the same way you are comparing values.
The farm is my business, my job, the million bucks isn?t anything I could spend or have or see. It is the investment so I can earn my paycheck.
Just the same as any factory worker.
If you mean city dwellers might not understand that, yea I know.
But it is exactly the same deal they have, they are millionaires exactly the same as any farmer then.
Agriculture won?t work if they try to make it different, so it doesn?t matter what they understand, it?s how things work that is important. If they wish to change how
agriculture works and make it different than what they have for themselves, we can see how that worked in venesualia, zimbobwa, perhaps South Africa soon......
Kinda important people figure out how things really are, and how things work, and move forward.
Ag works as a bulk commodity, low cost world traded goods deal. If folks demolish that and make it different, they will go hungry, they will have less to spend on their 4K
TV sets.....
Paul
Every govt wants a secure food source to keep their citizens calm. ?Food is a weapon? is somewhat true, tho it is more properly ?food is a tool? for govt to use as a carrot
as well, cheap food prices keep citizens calm and spending on other things, it is part of the entire social engineering done by governments.
Govt ain?t going to give up the power they have by controlling food, generally the cheaper it is the better for govt purposes.
Just about everyone in the USA is a millionaire, if used in the same sense you are using that concept.
You go to work in a factory and run a molding machine, that machine, the concrete it sits on, the roof over it, the climate control around it, the office staff needed to keep
it running, the staff to maintain it, shipping and handling to bring in and take away product.... that?s gonna be a million bucks per factory worker too.
And is exactly the same way you are comparing values.
The farm is my business, my job, the million bucks isn?t anything I could spend or have or see. It is the investment so I can earn my paycheck.
Just the same as any factory worker.
If you mean city dwellers might not understand that, yea I know.
But it is exactly the same deal they have, they are millionaires exactly the same as any farmer then.
Agriculture won?t work if they try to make it different, so it doesn?t matter what they understand, it?s how things work that is important. If they wish to change how
agriculture works and make it different than what they have for themselves, we can see how that worked in venesualia, zimbobwa, perhaps South Africa soon......
Kinda important people figure out how things really are, and how things work, and move forward.
Ag works as a bulk commodity, low cost world traded goods deal. If folks demolish that and make it different, they will go hungry, they will have less to spend on their 4K
TV sets.....
Paul
A land owner rents his ground for cash rent, prices go south, renter comes to landlord needs landlord to lower lease payment, landlord does reduce payment . Along comes gov. subsidy, farmer applies and receives, landlord gets squat from gov. but still has to pay high property taxes, etc, etc. Fair?? No, the farmer does not want the hand out but it is there so they are going to take it. Big farmers get more $$$$ and the little guy gets nothing.
Elton Fancher
Member
I worked at factory and farmed small time. Big time farmers have soaked the system for a long time. I know we need a stable food supply, but why not from the small guy that can get paid for his labor? I know that is wishful thinking, but we cannot continue throwing dollars at big time operators. For all the money we threw to dairy farmers they still need more. There is a site, I believe gov.org or something that would tell you every dollar your friends and neighbors received in subsidies. I found it very surprising how many big shots that farmed from the local store had received hundreds of thousands, and they were complaining about poor people getting food stamps. My rant.
old smokey
Member
I agree with what everyone is saying but...?.everyone but the farmer gets to tell the people what they want for there product.....the farmer is told what he's going to get for his product.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
All producers of commodities get told what they are going to get for their products,that is what commodity trading is all about.Everything from gasoline to copper is priced out
every day on commodity exchanges all over the World.Farm products are no different.
every day on commodity exchanges all over the World.Farm products are no different.
We quit milking the end of March after over 60 years milking
here and I don?t miss it. Yes we had quota but prices dropped
under a system where they generally don?t drop unless input
costs dramatically decrease. No one was interested in helping
I was running flat out 7 days a week taking robot alarms at
night on top of it for less and less money to cover bills and no
hope of things getting better. The only ones missing our cows
are the vet clinic and feed company ,possibly farm credit as
well because we had a big mortgage and we always kept it
current.
here and I don?t miss it. Yes we had quota but prices dropped
under a system where they generally don?t drop unless input
costs dramatically decrease. No one was interested in helping
I was running flat out 7 days a week taking robot alarms at
night on top of it for less and less money to cover bills and no
hope of things getting better. The only ones missing our cows
are the vet clinic and feed company ,possibly farm credit as
well because we had a big mortgage and we always kept it
current.
jon f mn
Well-known Member
Anyone unsatisfied with the
crop prices and the way
farming is can easily go get a
job in town, everyone is
hiring. Just think, sell the
machinery and rent out the
land, weekends off and 2 weeks
a year paid vacation. If you
have a CDL some are paying a
$10,000.00 sign on bonus. The
bonus alone is more than some
are saying they will make this
year.
crop prices and the way
farming is can easily go get a
job in town, everyone is
hiring. Just think, sell the
machinery and rent out the
land, weekends off and 2 weeks
a year paid vacation. If you
have a CDL some are paying a
$10,000.00 sign on bonus. The
bonus alone is more than some
are saying they will make this
year.
Elton The web site your talking about is "EWG farm subsidy database". The numbers there can be misleading if you just look at them without knowing what they are made up of.
They list the payment numbers from 1995-2017.
I have not taken any direct subsidy payments in that time. If you look up our farm it shows numbers that total in the millions in "Commodity Subsidies". So how is this possible??? Grain loans. It is common for us to store the grain and sell it after the harvest glut. Until around 2010 we would take loans out from the "Commodity Credit Corporation" until we retailed the grain. We paid interest on these loans and paid back every single dollar of the loan amount. The loan amount with interest, shows up in this data base as a subsidy.
Truthfully I think the EWG people know this and do it deliberately to inflate the numbers for grain farmers. The EWG backers are against subsidies to farmers. So it makes their case look better to make farmers look as bad as possible. The majority of the people that look at the site have zero idea of what is in the number they are posting. This includes many smaller farmers that think every big farm/farmer is getting an unfair payment.
The actual fact is the larger farms get a much smaller per acre payment than the smaller farmers do. The USDA payment limit guide lines effect larger farms but rarely smaller farms.
The subsidies help the smaller farmers more than a larger farmer when looked at as a percentage of total income.
The larger operations have a BIG lead in economics of scale. Modern farming is a very capital intense industry. Hundreds of thousands of dollars of loans can be gotten for a cheaper interest rate than tens of thousands. Hundreds of tons of inputs can be bought cheaper than tens of tons. Selling grain in larger amounts can gain added prices too. Then the biggest is the cost per acre of equipment. The large operations very well have millions of dollars of equipment. They spread that out over thousands of acres of crops. So for many of the better ran large operations the equipment cost per acre is much less than the majority of smaller farms.
Want to know what farms usually have the highest equipment cost per acre??? Mid sized dairy farms. They have grain equipment plus the hay and forage equipment. That is one reason that they are having the most trouble right now with the current dairy prices.
So if the government would eliminate all grain farm subsidies it would make the farms get larger quicker than it is currently. So do not hate on the good BTO too much. If they are hurting if your a smaller farmer your going to be hurting worse.
They list the payment numbers from 1995-2017.
I have not taken any direct subsidy payments in that time. If you look up our farm it shows numbers that total in the millions in "Commodity Subsidies". So how is this possible??? Grain loans. It is common for us to store the grain and sell it after the harvest glut. Until around 2010 we would take loans out from the "Commodity Credit Corporation" until we retailed the grain. We paid interest on these loans and paid back every single dollar of the loan amount. The loan amount with interest, shows up in this data base as a subsidy.
Truthfully I think the EWG people know this and do it deliberately to inflate the numbers for grain farmers. The EWG backers are against subsidies to farmers. So it makes their case look better to make farmers look as bad as possible. The majority of the people that look at the site have zero idea of what is in the number they are posting. This includes many smaller farmers that think every big farm/farmer is getting an unfair payment.
The actual fact is the larger farms get a much smaller per acre payment than the smaller farmers do. The USDA payment limit guide lines effect larger farms but rarely smaller farms.
The subsidies help the smaller farmers more than a larger farmer when looked at as a percentage of total income.
The larger operations have a BIG lead in economics of scale. Modern farming is a very capital intense industry. Hundreds of thousands of dollars of loans can be gotten for a cheaper interest rate than tens of thousands. Hundreds of tons of inputs can be bought cheaper than tens of tons. Selling grain in larger amounts can gain added prices too. Then the biggest is the cost per acre of equipment. The large operations very well have millions of dollars of equipment. They spread that out over thousands of acres of crops. So for many of the better ran large operations the equipment cost per acre is much less than the majority of smaller farms.
Want to know what farms usually have the highest equipment cost per acre??? Mid sized dairy farms. They have grain equipment plus the hay and forage equipment. That is one reason that they are having the most trouble right now with the current dairy prices.
So if the government would eliminate all grain farm subsidies it would make the farms get larger quicker than it is currently. So do not hate on the good BTO too much. If they are hurting if your a smaller farmer your going to be hurting worse.
SodBuster87
Member
So true. In fact I worked for a farmer like that years ago
If you factor in all the costs, without some sort of specialization the small farmer just does not have the economy of scale to stay profitable. Much like the small mom and pop stores of a generation or two ago. However, I can see the small land owners that rent out their ground, or farm for their own recreation, continuing for generations into the future.
One thing that hurts the small farmer is intense competition with other small farmers. It seems whenever a commodity or a livestock becomes truly profitable, small farmers try to jump into a good thing too late and bid up their input prices back up to break-even levels, pricing out any chance of making a profit.
Some legislation intended to help small farmers can kill rural communities, especially the property tax relief. As property tax costs are shifted to rural homeowners and businesses, many move away, schools consolidate into the larger towns, more local stores close, and too many rural communities are becoming "counties in distress" or "rural ghettos".
One thing that hurts the small farmer is intense competition with other small farmers. It seems whenever a commodity or a livestock becomes truly profitable, small farmers try to jump into a good thing too late and bid up their input prices back up to break-even levels, pricing out any chance of making a profit.
Some legislation intended to help small farmers can kill rural communities, especially the property tax relief. As property tax costs are shifted to rural homeowners and businesses, many move away, schools consolidate into the larger towns, more local stores close, and too many rural communities are becoming "counties in distress" or "rural ghettos".
I see the big corporations being the biggest threat to the small guys. If there is a decent market, the big guys move in and take all the oxygen out of the room.
I think we are going to be a more urban country in the future. Small towns that are not in the commuter distance of a metro area are going to shrink. I don t see what will save them.
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