No till question

300jk · May 12, 2019

We have all hay fields. Stopped growing corn a good while back because dad figured it was easier to buy grain for the animals he wanted to finish. Along with this came not rotationally plowing our fields. We used to rotate corn and hay. All hay now. Dad has had a big farmer no till drill some of our fields with timothy, clover, birdsfoot ect. The fields really don't produce like they used to. We do fertilize some. Not sure what dad puts down to the acre. Haven't limed in a long time. Seems like since he started no till hay production has been decreasing. We used to plow everything disk and replant every 2-4 years. Is this soil too compacted to grow decent hay now ? I know crop rotation is important along with soil tests, but if your growing the same crop in the same spot year after year there is really not a way to amend the soil without plowing, putting down lime and fertilizer that won't wash off the hard soil. Or am I missing something ? Dad likes reseeding this was because of less work and cost he thinks. Thoughts from anyone who has a better handle on this than me ?

tim s · May 12, 2019

A lot depends on where you are at ,,but the soil PH is important no matter what,,lime is needed in my area on hay ground every other year at about 3 ton per acre. The soil will actually be less compacted in hay ground, than in tilled row crop land. We use to have nice stands of Timothy around here back in the 70's,,but lately we have not been able to get a good stand,,we are thinking our spray program has been the reason,, and of course Alpha-toxcitity will not let new Alfalfa grow in an old stand, so that will go against you. Just some thoughts...

Bruce from Can. · May 12, 2019

I like to only leave hay fields down for three years, and try to take three cuts each year. Then manure and plough, plant either silage corn or mixed grain. Then the second year, either mole board plough or chisel plough and plant grain again under seeded to hay. It seems to me the best result I get with new seeded hay is to turn the old hay stand down, and grow corn or grain for at least one year before replanting to hay. Some varieties of hay make it difficult to establish new seeds, unless the old hay crop is completely killed out

David G · May 12, 2019

I do a rotation.

hay, corn, beans, corn, hay or try one more year of beans then hay

All row crops are no till, all hay will be RR in future.

VicS · May 12, 2019

I don't think has anything to do with plowing or no-till. When you grow the same crop year after year. Besides fertility going down, it increases insect and disease damage. But a little Nitrogen will turn yields around.

4520BW · May 12, 2019

Some of my hay fields are 15 years old, mostly orchard grass and clover. The key is to fertilize,I do a spring and fall application. Every couple of years in early fall after 3ed cutting I no till in more orchard grass at about 8 lbs/acre.

300jk · May 12, 2019

That's what we used to do. Dad don't want to put anything into the fields anymore. Fields used to yield good, but too many years of no rotation, and some neglect have hurt them !

coonie minnie · May 12, 2019

Do some soil testing. Hay for a long time will draw down P and K levels. Rotating crops before establishing a new stand will help a lot. Consider going to corn for a year, or a cereal, and re-seed after that.

In many, many conditions, tillage is a waste of time and money. We have fields not tilled in 34 years... pulled 80 bushel beans off some last fall, 265 bu corn the year before. The corn was 2nd year corn with 155 lb of N applied. It does work.

Those hay roots- grass or alfalfa- will do more to eliminate compaction than any tillage tool you can buy.

Northvale PA · May 12, 2019

I am no expert but have been only growing hay for almost 30 years. Here are a few thoughts: lime plus fertilizer are a must. I put down about 1/2 the recommendation of fertilizer. This is a financial choice. I want good yields that I can dry quickly. The best hay is cut at the right stage of maturity and dried quickly. Bumper crops of rained on hay are useless to me. Maybe you are in a dryer area. I do grow alfalfa grass mix so go to all grass for 2 years on a field then back to alfalfa grass. Weeds are a problem so spraying for them plus leafhoppers needs to be done. There are a few advantages to hay: I sell directly to the consumer, no middle man. When the weather is bad (too dry, too wet) price of hay goes up. I have steady customers. They have a steady supplier.

Leroy · May 12, 2019

Where are you at that you could go direct from corn to hay. My area seasons would not allow that. Hereit was corn, then beans, winter weat then hay fall seeded into the weat ground. Corn would not come off intime for winter wheat. And no hay ever followed corn. August time to plant hay.

IowaJohn · May 12, 2019

Here is my experience from West Central Iowa. I've been no-til corn, soybean rotation for at least 10 years on most of my ground some longer. I have noticed over the years the ground being more mellow/loose. Earthworms are big and plentiful. When we get heavy rains now the water goes in the ground instead of washing soil down the hill. I have a hill that is highly eroded pretty well down to the hard clay. We used to try and work it in the spring by disking and field cultivating. If we didn't do it perfectly we couldn't raise our voice on it much less a crop. Started no-tilling and now it'll raise a crop almost as good as my other ground. Just my experience your ground may not react the same.

NY 986 · May 12, 2019

I would agree with those that say you are taking nutrients out of the soil faster than they are being replaced. Also, pH is not something you forget about after the field is seeded. Get soil tests done and work with a respected crop specialist. Not saying rotation is not in order but I know a fair amount of Southern Tier and WNY ground was never overly suited for row crops due to growing season, top soil depth, slope of soil, and soil type to name a few issues. Again, a crop specialist would be helpful in this area in terms of recommending a crop to a given field. All that aside the wet spring should be a consideration for this year's plans as well. Last year's crop season forced some issues to the forefront that should be kept track of for this season. Vomitoxin in corn and molds in beans were issues last year and may very well be present this year if wet conditions continue. You can control what is on your farm but you can't control what is happening off your farm so molds and disease are free to move to your place from some distance away.

NY 986 · May 12, 2019

On loamy well drained soil alfalfa should persist far longer than three years barring disease and winter kill. We have had fields that were productive in terms of tonnage for over 15 years.

teddy52food · May 12, 2019

Any big chicken or turkey barns close? A good shot of manure will wake it up.

300jk · May 12, 2019

We used to grow some corn and hay. No more corn. All hay. Every year only hay. That was the reason for the post. Not rotating, not plowing and using no till and having a crop less than it used to be.

300jk · May 12, 2019

No only dairy close to here.

Olyj1947 · May 12, 2019

Where are you located Iowa John? I'm north of I-80 off mile marker 60.

IowaJohn · May 12, 2019

North of Walnut, go past the valley on the way to Des Moines

fixerupper · May 12, 2019

I agree with Coonie and Iowa John, tilling the soul will not loosen it and is actually going against you. I have not deep tilled for five years, I do lightly field cultivate the bean stubble but that is the only tillage that field sees for two years. Now five years later I can not get over how many earth worms I see in the fields. When dig to check my planting depth I hit a worm darned near every time. Here in Iowa the winter frost does the tillage work for us. Like others said you need to do soil tests and fertilize accordingly. Turkey or chicken litter are good fertilizer if you want to use manure because usually it is not very chunky when spread. The problem is getting it when you need it.

NY 986 · May 12, 2019

He needs to work with a professional to determine the best use of the soil that exists on his farm. He can employ the best practices going but still only grow 130-150
bushel corn due to limiting factors such as top soil depth. His father may have given up on corn because there was no way to get a return on what was invested to grow it.
It's nice to ask us here and we are glad to help but I think he needs a local qualified eye to assess the situation.

NY 986 · May 12, 2019

Should mention that the lack of drainage is often a problem on many NY farms. A number of farms go without tile drainage because no outlet can be established. We had a field that was basically only suitable for pasture until a neighboring ditch was deepened for a tile outlet.

Leroy · May 13, 2019

My question to you was how could you seed hay following corn when you were doing it as that would not be possible in my area. Different growing season or what. Here the few hay crops that you could seed in spring required a cover crop to be sowen with them, would not make if done by themselves. So you had thet cover crop to harvest between the corn and any hay crop.

GordoSD · May 13, 2019

You need to sit "Dad" down with a known expert, someone whose help he would welcome. Reading between the lines here, he is going to put you both in the poor house. If you can't get him to "modernize" then you should find work else where.

Roger Tomfohrde · May 13, 2019

I agree with the other comments about getting someone to do a soil test. The only thing to add is if you have growing legumes Alfalfa etc. You have to break the cycle and grow something completely out of that or the old ground will so to speak be toxic to new alfalfa. We rotated and never let the alfalfa go for more than three years due to the rotation.

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